reversing LJBF?

[DjNLes]

Hi All,

I like to get your guys' opinions on LJBF? I read one of the post in the DJBible about it. For some it seems to work or others not so. Can the process be reversed? If so what are the proper steps? Thanks all.

 

[Latinoman]

When told "Let Just Be Friends" (after me showing interest)...I simply reply:"I don't want to be your friend".

Because, personally, I don't like wasting my time nor being involved in ONeities.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

The generall rule I advocate is never accepting a LJBF rejection in the first place, but assuming you have for whatever AFC rationale you've convinced yourself of, you should cease and desist 'playing friends' immediately. It is ALWAYS easier and more worth your effort to risk rejection and establish a new connection (spin a new plate) rather than chase a bad investment (the LJBF gril). Most AFCs cling to their pseudo-friendships, out of ONEitis yes, but more importantly for a fear of initiating another female contact and risking rejection. It's far more comforting for the AFC to lie to himself and rationalize why he's playing friend to a particular girl than to be forced into the uncomfortable situation of having to risk personal rejection with many women by approaching them. This is damaging in 2 ways. First he never truly learns confidence becasuse he insulates himself from rejection with his rationalizations and secondly he never learns the effective technique that rejection (trial and error) teaches him.

Women have used the LJBF rejection for a hundred years because it serves an ego preservation function for her. To a greater or lesser degree, women require attention and the more they have of it the more affirmation they experience, both personally and socially. The LJBF rejection has classically ensured that a woman can reject a man, yet still maintain his previous attention. It also puts the responsibility for the rejection back on his shoulders since, should he decline the 'offer of friendship', he is then responsible for entertaining this friendship. This of course has the potential to backfire on women these days since the standard AFC will accept an LJBF rejection in the mistaken hopes of 'proving' himself worthy of her intimacy by being the perfect 'surrogate boyfriend' - fulfilling all her attention and loyalty prerequisites with no expectation of reciprocating her own intimacy. The LJBF rejection also serves as an ego preservation for her in that having offered the false olive branch of 'friendship' to him in her rejection she also can sleep that night knowing that she (and any of her peers) wont think any less of herself. After all, she offered to be friends, right? She is excused from any feelings of personal guilt or any responsibilities for his feelings if she still wants to remain amiable with him.

The default response should be to take it as a rejection (and her loss) ergo, you remove the reinforcer - attention. Up until the point you made an approach for her intimacy she enjoys the benefit of your attentions. After an LJBF response her latent intent is to keep that reinforcer of attention. Do not reward her for this disingenuous response, she will only use it on you again or with another guy in a similar situation since it was reinforced the last time this circumstance was experienced. And should the next fellow reinforce it further, she will internalize this as her standard response.

Obviously the best way to enact this is to use a takeaway and turn down her LJBF. An outright refusal of her pseudo-friendship offer would be ideal, but not always possible given social settings, however a takeaway is always warranted.

Do not doubt her intent with a LJBF. The problem I see with doubting her intent with the LJBF is that, most women, whether serious or not in their LJBF rejection, will almost always follow up with some kind of communication when you do remove your previous attentions. This was a previous reinforcer to her and like most animals when faced with a behavioral extinction, she will attempt to re-establish that reward. This is why if you do end up cutting all contact with her she will have a tendency to pursue - and depending on the individual sometimes more actively pursue - your attention, even if she has no intent of becoming intimate with a guy. Women do this in an effort to maintain self-affirmation (i.e. she wants to verify everything is 'OK' between you and her in an email or IM) after a rejection.

Problems occur when a guy begins to doubt her seriousness in her rejection when this occurs. We always read guys on this forum state that a fellow ought to "stick to his guns" in situations of rejection and this becomes more difficult when she confuses him with an unexpected burst of spontaneous attention. It's the stripper effect only more personal. Guys will spend small fortunes on lap dances at the strip club because it provides him with something he's not ordinarily accustomed to - spontaneous feminine attention. When a woman does a follow up to a LJBF rejection after a takeaway the reaction is similar for men. Maybe she does actually like him after all? Maybe he does have a shot with the stripper in his lap, she's giving him confusing signals in either instance.

I'm sure that there are occasions and circumstances where a woman will reconsider (and fvck) a guy she LJBFed, but these situations are far too rare to use as predicting factors, especially considering the subtle evaluations needed to judge her actual IL after an LJBF, I can't endorse attempting to reframe her initial impressions. These cases are the exception to a rule, and even in the event of successfully closing with a former LJBF, it still serves her attention need and reinforces that behavior, even if just in part. Addtionally, the validity and genuine desire on her part, in any future relationship with the former LJBF will always be suspect. In other words he'll always be the fall back guy, the second choice.

 

[DjNLes]

Thanks guys for the response. Very good info.

The reason I asked is sometime ago, I had asked this girl out. We had been talking for several months. Some of the convos were rather intimate. I thought there was interested, but I guess I was wrong. She's not from around here and she told me she dated guys from other states and it just didn't work out. She came here to visit a few times and both times I took her out for some fun. I think enjoyed her time here.

Well recently, I just decided to cut the contact altogether. Sometime last week, I got a text asking if I was still alive. I didn't respond. I don't know how are what I should respond. I really like the girl but at this point it's like that saying.."out of sight out of mind". Any comments or suggestions guys? Thanks!

 

[DjVelvet]

Great post, Rollo

This is why if you do end up cutting all contact with her she will have a tendency to pursue - and depending on the individual sometimes more actively pursue - your attention, even if she has no intent of becoming intimate with a guy. Women do this in an effort to maintain self-affirmation

A question for you,

I have a similar situation. I have used challenge on a chick and gotten her IL really high. Not due AFCness, her IL got lower (but not at the LJBF zone as kissing and intimacy still occurs) which i don't know a reason why (In fact, I don't even bother to find out)

Now I've cut away all contacts with her when I discovered several red flags i.e. she end a date early and did not reply to a msg> Thus i move on to another chick (Not really interested in her but game her for the sake of preventing oneitis on the first one.)

Understand that cutting all contacts and moving on to other chicks is the best advice that many here would give.

So far the cutting all contacts was done for 1 week plus and she did not contact me since then too. Oh well.

Does it mean that the set is broken just like that? If she did contact me afterwhile, is it just to validate that she is still holding my feelings towards her?

It's like. what a waste. A set with sudden low IL after 2 months of dating and she having high IL initially..

Vel

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

2 months of dating? Sweet Mother Mary man, pull a trigger. That's your problem right there, you went 2 months without closing. Hesitate and you are lost.

 

[resilient]

Most the time women with initial high interest level transition to a sudden abyssmal level of interest, for the fact that they were spinning your plate until they could find a better plate. Which is why they have zero contact in a dead lapse of time with you. Perhaps, your attraction went AFC or you got needy when escalating her attraction, I don't know your particular situation.

However, the follow up LJBF is emotional realization to know they did the right thing in NEXTing you. I never respond to emails/calls/txts when a girl does this, because like Rollo said we need to teach them a lesson in learning that we won't stick around to give them the attention without intimacy being reciprocated. Isn't this what they call Seller's Remorse in business? heh.

If our lives are becoming enriched with all the self-work we are doing, then there is no need to settle in oneitis death valley since we're simply adding new plates to juggle all the time!

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Very good point, Resilient.


I never took the time to really look at it from the point of view you just offered. Yes, it would stand to reason that other than just being an Attention Whorre, some chicks actually ARE practicing plate spinning. And sometimes WE are the plates that THEY let drop-----thinking they have found the bigger, better deal.

And as a result, when they DO sometimes come back, this also explains the instinctual animosity and lack of serious interest I then have towards them. And all of this is usually subconcious on my part. But your post, and of course Rollo's, are helping me identify some of my internal workings.


Thanks soldiers!


But back to the original poster's question:

I think that the only way you can reverse LJBF is to never accept the mindframe of her MAKING you her friend. As has been posted before, if you agree with her asessment of your "relationship", you are committed. You are stuck in that frame.

It's best to not accept an LJBF, disappear, and wait for another opportunity when she is more emotionally vulnerable---then STRIKE!!! If you must...

But as Westcoaster always says, "Walk away". It's usually just a matter of time before you run right smack into another babe who might be worth your attention.

The only variable is...make sure you're able to optimize and maximize your life until you do meet a worthy chick.



Peace...one day.

 

[BobFuest]

my response has always been "thats nice of you but I dont want to be your friend, I got enough friends."

Usually they are shocked and end up calling a few days later to "see what I am doing"..

Also, I dont recommend it but if you really want to turn the tables do it this way. Then when they call, dont answer but then call back later asking if someone called from this number. Then when they try to chat you up say u would love to but your about to go out to dinner. Your creating a sense of challenge and in a lot of girls they then start wondering if they dropped "the wrong plate". Plus they wonder who your going to dinner with etc.. Its really a bad idea to get with some one that tried to LJBF you but if you must this is the way to play it..

 

[Phyzzle]

If you've been friends for a while:

http://www.sosuave.com/articles/escaping.htm

~Phyzzle

 

[GirlCrazy]

Print out RT's advice and attach it to your fridge. Read it every morning (optional: slap yourself upside the head once for me), until you truly understand what he's saying.

When told "Let Just Be Friends" (after me showing interest)...I simply reply:"I don't want to be your friend".

Perfect, and can't be taken in any other way.

My variation:

"Honestly, I barely have time for the friends I already have, so I'm gonna pass on that..."

or ... from my PUA friend:

"So all that means a bl0wjob is out of the question, then?"

 

[Sinistar]

reversing LJBF? ==> A little pain now or a lot a pain later.

I never respond to emails/calls/txts when a girl does this, because like Rollo said we need to teach them a lesson in learning that we won't stick around to give them the attention without intimacy being reciprocated.

I used to think this way and it was this very site that wacked me out of that frame (wrong or right, your call). We are here, unplugged and aware. This awareness comes at a price, true responsibility for our actions and their corresponding reactions. You can't go back once set free. joekerr31's recent post illustrates this quite well (http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=109815).

Now to my first point. If you do this to teach the girl a lesson I believe you have failed. You are expending energy to change someone that really doesn't matter or belong in your life anymore. Perhaps your absence will cause them to learn something - big deal. It's almost ironic and took me a while to see - the example quote above still has the lingerings of rescuing/saving someone

Back to the OP's LJBF dilema. Its almost always a no-win situation. A similar situation originally brought me to this forum. I did a lot reading on the internet (most of it bad, femine based input) on how to escalate a LJBF into something more. In hindsight it's almost silly, none of that crap worked, what did work was getting p!ssed at the situation after allowing myself to be in the situation in the first place. All it took was stepping back and dating 1 woman and within a week Ms.LJBF was in the sack. Then the Hollywood Harry meets Sally Happy ending - yeah right!

Why did I go through with it in the first place? Because I read almost always (see above) as to mean there is actually a chance. And when a guy thinks he's starving he'll probably eat just about anything. Why did it initially work, that's easy I followed the parlor tricks. Yet I didn't know the Magician's Secret (what this site helps us unravel).

A LJBF -> LTR isn't meant to work, there isn't working code in the Matrix for it! Unfortunately, by the time the question is asked the emotional investment is so big there is gonna be some pain. The potential relationship has been so thought out, dwelled on and invested into (by the AFC). And the HB has all along felt safe, ego boosted and riding the high of having a super girlfriend with a mangina.

Now throw in any overt/direct moves to take it a step farther and it's chaos. The guy is trying to get her into his frame and gives up even more of his in the process. She feels pressured, weird, unsafe and insecure and blamo. He's doing exactly what man was not designed to do, supplicate and be humilated. And she's off running code that is unstable too - having to be in control, no desire/interested and her safe zone blasted apart.

Then when it all settles you may very well discover that woman (in this case your LJBF or mine or the next guy's) was never actually even a 'friend'. You can't rely on them like a good buddy. They won't be there 1 week later, 1 year later. They just let go of one branch after grabbing another 'perceived' better one. That's their simple code, its running all the time until......

....they run into the Alpha guy who gets it. He realizes many things in his life are more important than a woman. He doesn't just act confident, he is confident and the HB's can sense it. He knows LJBF's and actually just being friends with women isn't logical and avoids these situations all together. And he knows one more thing, there is a path towards a type of friendship with a woman - it is after desire and intent have been established first and resolved. For being smart, he gets both

Funny thing about the actual LJBF line. I dated a girl just after XMas. It was clear she was a NEXT. The day after our first (and only) date she writes 3 emails wondering why I didn't contact her. So I called her the next day to put a certain end to things. I told her in no uncertain terms we were not compatible. She responded with a LJBF line (that still makes me laugh). Then, without thinking (or maybe I was thinking) I grabbed that frame right back, quite c0cky and issued my first ever LNBE: "I've got a better deal, Let's Not Be Enemies". She actually laughed ... and stopped writing

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Try not to interpret what I typed about turning down a LJBF rejection as a big "get even" proposition so much as you are doing her a favor as well as setting policy for yourself. You're not hitting her back for anything, you're simply not reinforcing a behavior (really another feminine social contrivance). Think of it as you would in using a Neg Hit with the girl at the end of the bar who's shot down 8 guys who bought her drinks that night. The guy who turns down a woman's LJBF is going to be more memorable and therefore force a woman into a qualifying situation. Most guys don't have the sack for this. To the AFC this seems counterintuitive, or even mean, but just like Neg Hits it serves a purpose.

LJBF has become such a default tool for women that it's similar the JBY (just be yourself) contrivance when people don't know what else to say - it seems like the right thing to say. You don't have to be a prick about it either, there are many witty way to turn around a LJBF that don't make you an ass hole (well, at least not in the long term). The most tactful would be something along the lines of "well, I was interested in you as more than a friend so I don't think that's possible" or simply call her straight to the floor on her bullsh!t and say "hey, I'm old enough to understand what a woman means when she say LJBF, I'll see you around." Always remember, a LJBF is an attempt to put the responsibility of this rejection back on you. It's her responsibility to give you acceptance or denial, not some nebulous continuation of your attentions.

 

[DjNLes]

Thanks for the great insights guys.

"So all that means a bl0wjob is out of the question, then?"
"mangina"
"I've got a better deal, Let's Not Be Enemies" Those just cracks me up.

Here's the situation. We haven't been in contact for weeks now other than that one text msg I received last week. I got a wedding to go to next month and she's supposed to be my date. I'm not sure if that thrilled about it now. Regardless, if she does show up and we do go. At the end of the night, I'm just gonna kiss her. Any comments or suggestions..thanks!

 

[SoCalMike]

I used to get the LJBF thing a lot back in my early 20's but once you mature and become more "DJ" it will rarely happen. It usually only happens when your attitude is needy and desperate, or when you kiss the girl's ass.

You need to truly not give a f*ck about whether or not the girl wants you -becuase you're comfortable being alone and/or have plenty of other options.

Once you develop this mindset, you will be LJBF'ing women instead.

 

[resilient]

You need to truly not give a f*ck about whether or not the girl wants you -becuase you're comfortable being alone and/or have plenty of other options.

Once you develop this mindset, you will be LJBF'ing women instead.

:woo:

 

[Aaron B]

I personally like the David D approach of teasing her from the beginning with friendship, i.e. "if nothing else, we can still be friends."

And "I'm so glad we are friends."

I did this with my LTR who is now my wife and it worked great. You never give them an opening for the LJBF and also it keeps them on their heels "Why doesn't this guy want to sleep with me like all the others - he just wants to be my friend? What's wrong with me?"

 

[monster squad]

I've been trying to reverse the ol' LJBF thing since last June with this one girl.

First I need to explain things. In my area, it's next to impossible to find a suitable women, IF you're looking for something long term. It's easy to score one night stands. I have plenty of numbers I could call right now, and have someone over here on my **** tonight. I'm not interested in this. To me that's like using a coupon on a call-girl or prostitute. Perhaps I'm old fashioned. Perhaps I fear the HIV.

Also, the area is predominately hispanic, and I'm simply not attracted to most hispanic girls. There was ONE, but she suddenly got stupid and moved out of the state to marry her ex-fiance. The same guy who cheated on her at least five times during their engagement. The same guy who's bleeding her dry financially. The same guy who's become a drug addict. I guess she needed to prove herself, and she's done a fine job of it.

Besides that, it's an all-out warzone. If you're with a girl, you WILL have a dozen or more guys approach her a night, even when it's clear that she's with you (at least for the time being). They don't care. They realize how rare a decent girl is, and they'll go to drastic lengths to score one. When it was discovered that my roommate was going through a divorce, they were circling her like vultures. We actually started acting like a couple in public just to keep most of the bastards away, until she was mentally capable of dating again. BTW, she's the ONLY women I will ever call a "friend".

So yeah, when you find someone you really want, you have to put more effort in it than simply "NEXTing" her when things don't go so smoothly to protect your precious little ego.

Anyway, mine is a work in progress. When she initiated the first of many LJBF's speeches, I was like a deer in headlights. I felt helpless, and couldn't do a thing to stop it. In the end, I agreed to it. Then the first time we hung out afterwards, I threw her a curveball and told her that I changed my mind. A barrage of text messages and phone calls, all unresponded to, followed. Eventually, she did come running back for that attention fix, and I gave it to her. This became an endless cycle. I think the only thing that kept things interesting is my own bizarre behavior.

"So you say you changed your mind and you want to go home with me tonight? It's too bad I've gone celibate. Hail Morrissey! Oh, and you can put your tits away now too. You've already shown them to me."

"What's that? You say it'll never happen between us, and you're going home? That's ok. I'll just **** your friend instead."

"You decided to cancel our plans? Alright. See you in four months."

"You must really like it when I call you a wh0re when I see you making out with some random guy when we're out as "friends"."

Blah blah blah.

Now we're at another turn on this fun filled roller coaster. I stopped talking to her for a few months. She came back, sorry as ever. We hung out a few times, then one night I ****ed her. Then I kicked her out, and didn't bother to call her for a few days. So she decided to contact me and tell me, once again, that we're going to stay friends. Bruised ego? Anyhow, I told her I wasn't interested in that, but hung out with her a few times anyway, making it 100% clear what I was after. I never got it. So my wreckless behavior kicked in again.

I invited her out, she pulled the "I'm tired and have to go home" song and dance again, and I decided to just make out with her for the hell of it. She looked so confused, but after staring into space for a few seconds she told me she was still going home alone. I let her know I was displeased by her decision, and stopped contacting her.

The other day I got an email asking if we were still "cool", and saying she wanted to hang out again. I told her to stop thinking, and set up a "date" (not really a date, just going out for some drinks).

Today I received this:

"me + you + booze + thursday night + no work friday = FUN!"

We'll see...

But yeah, keep your chin up and all that. If you really like her, and you think you can handle all the bull**** you've got coming your way, go for it.

 

[monster squad]

Oh, and in case anyone thinks I'm that stupid:

me + her = tease

I'm gonna have me some fun alright.

 

[Latinoman]

Most the time women with initial high interest level transition to a sudden abyssmal level of interest, for the fact that they were spinning your plate until they could find a better plate. Which is why they have zero contact in a dead lapse of time with you. Perhaps, your attraction went AFC or you got needy when escalating her attraction, I don't know your particular situation.

If you manage to have sex with her...and the sex turns out to be great...then the "LBJF" crap considerably goes away.

That's one of the MAIN reasons I avoid "dates" with women that I have not being in any level of intimacy before.