Relationships? Are culture dependent

[jhonny9546]

I have always had the opportunity to debate everything I read online, applying it to reality, experimenting and drawing the fruits of real experience.
It doesn't matter how many times I've read what a mature man is, or how a man should maintain the frame, etc, and much more.


All I have found from my experience in the field, Italian for my part, is that Italian relationships, in Italian culture, have their own particular functioning.
If you are interested... I will write some things that seem normal here for a relationship, but not normal, according to the way the internet, mass culture, wants to represent them.


1) Betrayal is a dealbreaker for ending the relationship: in Italy, many couples have cheated on each other. Maybe they took a break, or simply cheated on each other. By these couples, betrayal is used as a "means" to "strengthen" the couple after mistakes have been made. So that now the two partners can commit more! Having made mistakes, sometimes both, they now understand that they never want to make that mistake again...
You can see many couples going theraphy, for this mistake, and going strong togheter for many years. (I do personally know plently of them still togheter after 30 years).
Yet.. in my opinion, the wolf loses its fur, but not its vice.


2) Lack of respect: in Italy, it's normal to see the woman wearing the relationship pants and if you're a real man, you won't make it. You will live alone. You're desired, but not desireable.. for a relationship.
These women were raised in a culture and will do what her mother and grandmother did. "Scolding" her father..


3) Couples with children
It's really common for a woman, even if very attractive, to put up with her husband's "bull****".
Let's say that the husband is financially well off, and that they have children, then she'll take the bait, and she will also be treated badly, it doesn't matter, if this allows her to maintain status and economic stability. She will do it.. at any cost.


Let me know if you want to know more about italian couples.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Jhonny,
Great Lovers that they may have been,my Italian friends all seem to live with their Mums!

 

[plumber]

i have seen those patterns in other places. the patterns are real.

 

[jhonny9546]

my Italian friends all seem to live with their Mums!

It's not seem, it's real.
Partly due to the family culture, partly due to the country's economy (work, cost of housing, cost of living).

But the fact is that men are underweight.
Tell us what else you found.

the patterns are real

Maybe that's not what we're supposed to hear.
Maybe that's not what relationships are supposed to be.
But it's the truth out there.

 

[jhonny9546]

Other things to consider.

4) Walking away:
We often talk as men about taking courage, getting our "stuff" together, and simply walking away when we're disrespected.
In my observations and experience, this isn't true in reality: men become even more authoritarian and territorial.
Example: A married couple has had some problems recently, and it turns out she cheated on him with another man.
What will a serious man do? He'll walk away.
This isn't reality. The man married to the woman won't blame the woman, at least partially, but will see the real problem in the other man "who hit on his wife." So he'll go to him and act authoritarian, territorial, and claim his woman.
This is actually the exact opposite of what is suggested to mature, confident men.
But it's what actually happens in real life.
(This happens to both women and men)

5) Acceptance:
Especially after children, financial commitments like mortgages, social commitments like marriage, and others, both women and men will begin to accept many disrespects.
For example, both men and women will have sayings that express things that have happened, but which they are accepting.
For example, women might say things like, "He came home late tonight... maybe he had something to do with his lover," jokingly because they might know he's cheating on her, but at least he hides it and goes home to his children, remaining a provider for the family. (and contrary to popular belief, this is what you encounter in reality, not women says they want in a man, and it's actually what makes them most to desire in that man. "After a family He's still attractive and of value to other woman, so I must keep him")
Men might say, "She went dancing with her friends, she must have had a lot of fun," and he knows she goes dancing with her friends to have sex with another man, and then goes home to him, who provides.

 

[Scaramouche]

It's not seem, it's real.
Partly due to the family culture, partly due to the country's economy (work, cost of housing, cost of living).

But the fact is that men are underweight.
Tell us what else you found.

Maybe that's not what we're supposed to hear.
Maybe that's not what relationships are supposed to be.
But it's the truth out there.

Hi Johny,
Only know three...each lives with Momma and is fat as butter...Being in the Building game they all have their own homes,I think it's their deep affinity with food,Italian Food ...All were Italian Stallions in their hey day but Celibate now,very different to the Anglo-Celts I know....I think there might be a cultural reason here...Julius Caesar recorded that the Anglos lived in groups of 10-15 and shared their Women around!that would be conducive to a high Libido.

 

[Gamisch]

It's not seem, it's real.
Partly due to the family culture, partly due to the country's economy (work, cost of housing, cost of living).

But the fact is that men are underweight.
Tell us what else you found.

Maybe that's not what we're supposed to hear.
Maybe that's not what relationships are supposed to be.
But it's the truth out there.

And again Johnny, you didn't respond when I said this before, Italy has one of the worst birthrates in Europe.

Imo the combination of modern dating and old-school values is a problematic combination. Or you go full Muslim and control women by force, or you make being a mom a hype. Anything else ends up being a nothing burger.

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Other things to consider.

I'll take what you say now with a grain of salt. I'd say a little olive oil and vinegar to go along with it too. LOL. I'm sure it is quite different in Italy. I keep forgetting that's where you are, even though it says right there! Heck even on my dad's side in America some of my aunts and their husbands stayed with my grandparents and their children! It would simplify home finances and solving problems and not one person stuck with chores and cooking all the time. It was a very different change of pace from the household I grew up in. My dad was the eldest and first to leave the "nest."

Anything else ends up being a nothing burger.

Dang you, Gamisch. I want a burger now....

 

[jhonny9546]

you didn't respond when I said this before

Where mate?

By the way, what I found true here in Italy it's that if you act as a mature man, you're actually seen as an "old, boring man".
You're alone in your way.

Instead, everyone else who becomes insecure, controlling, rebels, coercive, is seen as "strong".
A bit of arrogance, arrogance, and you are seen as safe in Italy, not the other way around.
This is the behavior of families who "box" their daughters into arranged marriages and keep them within the family system.



Otherwise, there are none.
There are no women who by "their will" have chosen to live the family type of life, without a man having told them or behaved in that coercive way.

 

[Gamisch]

Where mate?

By the way, what I found true here in Italy it's that if you act as a mature man, you're actually seen as an "old, boring man".
You're alone in your way.

Instead, everyone else who becomes insecure, controlling, rebels, coercive, is seen as "strong".
A bit of arrogance, arrogance, and you are seen as safe in Italy, not the other way around.
This is the behavior of families who "box" their daughters into arranged marriages and keep them within the family system.



Otherwise, there are none.
There are no women who by "their will" have chosen to live the family type of life, without a man having told them or behaved in that coercive way.

Its no digg at you bro. I have to search it up. If you really want to I can do it , but I stated before that despite Italy having this romantic aura there is an actual crisis regarding birthrates.

(AI Overview
Italy's birth rate is a recognized national emergency, with births hovering around 6 to 7 per 1,000 inhabitants and a fertility rate of approximately 1.14 children per woman—one of the lowest globally and well below the 2.1 replacement level. )

so imo a lotta things you said don't matter if the numbers tell a different story . Mind you, Italy has the same issue as the US..both are riddled in " traditionalism " while simultaneously being hyper modern. Those two can't coexist. Of they do it will be the MEN who will get the short end of the stick as the women get to live their "best life" and eventually around 30 something settle with a man who lived at home, waiting for her to be done with the partying. Yes, that will eventually lead to a relationship dynamic where the man gets bossed around by a woman with waaaay more experience and notches on her belt.

Italy is as euro as it gets, while simultaneously being an arm length away from Northern Africa. So yes, traditionalism will be prevalent, while modernisation is also there. Same with the US.

 

[BaronOfHair]

One fact that's true across all human societies:

A variation of what's said here

12:34-14:10 is equally true of "love", however we want to define that word

Like loyalty, it may all be a myth, and that the only love that exists is that which we give to ourselves

 

[jhonny9546]

Its no digg at you bro. I have to search it up. If you really want to I can do it , but I stated before that despite Italy having this romantic aura there is an actual crisis regarding birthrates.

(AI Overview
Italy's birth rate is a recognized national emergency, with births hovering around 6 to 7 per 1,000 inhabitants and a fertility rate of approximately 1.14 children per woman—one of the lowest globally and well below the 2.1 replacement level. )

so imo a lotta things you said don't matter if the numbers tell a different story . Mind you, Italy has the same issue as the US..both are riddled in " traditionalism " while simultaneously being hyper modern. Those two can't coexist. Of they do it will be the MEN who will get the short end of the stick as the women get to live their "best life" and eventually around 30 something settle with a man who lived at home, waiting for her to be done with the partying. Yes, that will eventually lead to a relationship dynamic where the man gets bossed around by a woman with waaaay more experience and notches on her belt.

Italy is as euro as it gets, while simultaneously being an arm length away from Northern Africa. So yes, traditionalism will be prevalent, while modernisation is also there. Same with the US.

I mean, in Africa, four children are born per woman, but does that mean the men there are more confident than here in Italy or the US?
I don't think so.

There are too many things we can't achieve for ourselves, so that's why we give up having children, in such a difficult climate to "emerge." My sister, a friend of mine, and another I know have had three children. They are married to financially well-off men, and their families are all old-fashioned, traditional. Does that mean they're successful?
I don't think I can say that.

Apparently, they have everything, but they constantly argue, they don't respect each other, and their children are suffering abuse, both verbal and physical (to raise them with spankings, as happens all over the world).
That said, their children won't grow up healthy, but will have traumas and fears, and will repeat the same generational trauma as their parents. Consider that my friend, who has three children, is married to a man whose parents cheated on each other in the past, but are still together now. Guess what? Exactly... that thing happened again, but to their son..
Infact, his son was cheated on by his wife before their second child. Yet it remained (learned trauma).

I mean, the data, and what we see sometimes, isn't really what you consider success.
I consider success to be two people who live healthy and respectful lives with each other, and who break up as soon as one of them disrespects them, not that they "tolerate" bull****. It seems more like there's a crisis of value: people haven't learned to recognize their own value, so that's why they stay in these situations?

Women and men out there who are cuckolds or extremely unhappy stay for social validation and not to show that their investment wasn't a failure, when in fact they know it was, and they hide the reality. From themselves first and foremost.
Let me ask you a question... if a woman cheats on you, or if you cheat on your wife, can you really live a fulfilling and peaceful relationship with her?

I really don't care what happened in the past (wives staying at home, men f8king wh8res in brothels).
We live in another era.

 

[jhonny9546]

One fact that's true across all human societies:

A variation of what's said here

12:34-14:10 is equally true of "love", however we want to define that word

Like loyalty, it may all be a myth, and that the only love that exists is that which we give to ourselves

Listened to this.
Does all this mean that in the end, after all the commitments, you leave because you're simply tired of everything?

 

[BaronOfHair]

Listened to this.
Does all this mean that in the end, after all the commitments, you leave because you're simply tired of everything?

-You might be dissatisfied with things

-You may find that you and your SO's goals and priorities have changed

The list of motives could stretch out volumes

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Listened to this.
Does all this mean that in the end, after all the commitments, you leave because you're simply tired of everything?

Speaking to the MC and specific culture surrounding it, that is the case for many.

Loyalty and love are very real things, but most people have a very addled, jaded or otherwise unrealistic expectation for what they think those words should emotionally deliver to them without compromise. To add to the confusion, everyone, their grandmothers and former cousins' roommates all have their addled perceptions too of what these words should mean. Loyalties change, love changes, life changes.

A good read on this topic is "Illusions in loving." It slices through truth and lie like a cleaver, making you accept that there is a difference between the word "love" and the illusions of attachment, lust and infatuation. We're drawn to "loyalty" the same way we are to "love." They don't mean what people think they mean. This is getting pretty far down a RABBIT hole, but it isn't so far fetched when you realize people can over obsess over any vague word or concept; to say nothing of the complex or transcendent.

 

[BaronOfHair]

Loyalty and love are very real things...

And in terms of the ones we receive from others, "loyalty" and "love" are ALWAYS conditional/predicated upon the benefits we bring to our SOs, colleagues, staff at diners, etc, etc

 

[plumber]

I mean, in Africa, four children are born per woman, but does that mean the men there are more confident than here in Italy or the US?
I don't think so.

There are too many things we can't achieve for ourselves, so that's why we give up having children, in such a difficult climate to "emerge." My sister, a friend of mine, and another I know have had three children. They are married to financially well-off men, and their families are all old-fashioned, traditional. Does that mean they're successful?
I don't think I can say that.

Apparently, they have everything, but they constantly argue, they don't respect each other, and their children are suffering abuse, both verbal and physical (to raise them with spankings, as happens all over the world).
That said, their children won't grow up healthy, but will have traumas and fears, and will repeat the same generational trauma as their parents. Consider that my friend, who has three children, is married to a man whose parents cheated on each other in the past, but are still together now. Guess what? Exactly... that thing happened again, but to their son..
Infact, his son was cheated on by his wife before their second child. Yet it remained (learned trauma).

I mean, the data, and what we see sometimes, isn't really what you consider success.
I consider success to be two people who live healthy and respectful lives with each other, and who break up as soon as one of them disrespects them, not that they "tolerate" bull****. It seems more like there's a crisis of value: people haven't learned to recognize their own value, so that's why they stay in these situations?

Women and men out there who are cuckolds or extremely unhappy stay for social validation and not to show that their investment wasn't a failure, when in fact they know it was, and they hide the reality. From themselves first and foremost.
Let me ask you a question... if a woman cheats on you, or if you cheat on your wife, can you really live a fulfilling and peaceful relationship with her?

I really don't care what happened in the past (wives staying at home, men f8king wh8res in brothels).
We live in another era.

lets say your right about everything. no disagreements. now what ?? do you want women to rule or do you want men to rule ? our theory is it is better for both if it is men in charge. not perfect, but better. i mean if there was an all powerful genie, what you you ask for ? what is the most important thing.

 

[Scaramouche]

Hi Jhonny,
I checked Gamish out,he's on the money,your birthrate is very low...Surprising really because Italians in this Country,are known for having large families.
Considering your large number of N.African refugees with a fertility rate of 3.6,the situation is even worse.
Begs the question,what is Johny doing about it? LOL.

 

[jhonny9546]

To add to the confusion, everyone, their grandmothers and former cousins' roommates all have their addled perceptions too of what these words should mean

This is what we actually call culture.
We learn it from our ancestors/predecessors.
If they had this "brain fog" about it, then it's just a trickle-down effect.

Excellent observation.

lets say your right about everything. no disagreements. now what ?? do you want women to rule or do you want men to rule ? our theory is it is better for both if it is men in charge. not perfect, but better. i mean if there was an all powerful genie, what you you ask for ? what is the most important thing.

Hmm, in charge of what?
Menneed to be in charge of their lives, what do you mean with that?

 

[jhonny9546]

Hi Jhonny,
I checked Gamish out,he's on the money,your birthrate is very low...Surprising really because Italians in this Country,are known for having large families.
Considering your large number of N.African refugees with a fertility rate of 3.6,the situation is even worse.
Begs the question,what is Johny doing about it? LOL.

Sorry I cannot understand but it look like you said something interesting. Could you rephrase?