reengaging in the game

[woggle]

I am recently divorced after 18 years of being married. During the final days struggle, I met a great gal. All parties involved are in their 40's. During the fallout, we got pretty tight, some physical, nothing heavy sexual but very heavy emotional. But she did not want anything more at the time because of my status and said if I was ever single, she would still be around. I had seen her maybe 4 times in the last 6 months leading up to the big D. Now it is final, I have had contact with her. At first she did not know nor did I inform her of the finality and everything was great. That was followed by a couple of good nothing heavy phone conversations. A week or so later, I saw her and told her we needed to have a drink and catch up, she smiled and said the D is final, right. Then said call me and we'll catch up. Several messages later and one quick run into, she has sortof disappeared. The question: I know her interest level at one point was huge, but has time killed that, has the Big D scared her, does she need time to let it sink in, has she lost interest, or is there someone else involved? Help, I am new to all of this again and don't know how to engage in this realm anymore.

 

[woggle]

Come on, I know some of you guys out there have some sage advice. I want to make sure I do the right thing as to not come across needy or desperate, which I believe to this point I haven't because I have not had enough contact with her to reinforce that. Should I just simply call and set up a lunch or dinner or should I keep cruising with no contact and show patience and work on other options?

 

[The Bat]

You only saw her 4 times in 6 months. Now you're saying she has kinda disappeared in couple of weeks. Looks to me like things are at a normal pace. You were taking things slowly before. Only thing different now is the divorce so that means you are ready to escalate things. However, this does not mean that she is.

Also, make sure that she's not a rebound. The worst thing you can do is emotionally invest in someone else hoping that the new person will erase your ex out of your life emotionally and spiritually.

18 years, huh? Wow, long time. That's almost the length of my lifetime. Got to give you props though for at least trying to break out of that emotional prison of 18 years.

 

[woggle]

Yea but previously to the 4 in 6, when i first met her we did a good stretch of several times a week, lunch, phone, text, etc., leading up to the getting very tight. It started to get pretty intense and she backed off because of the pending divorce and said she needed to so I could think clearly and correctly on proceeding thru the mess. Now I figure as you say slow and steady, patience my man patience, no rush, no looking needy or desperate which for so long, years ago, was the norm. Not proud of.

 

[Mr. Me]

You're not going to believe me, but she lost interest back around when she told you she'd prefer you were single.

Up to that time, you guys connected "pretty tight" while she knew you were going through the divorce and that was okay for a little while with her - but the result wasn't her saying "I'm crazy for you. Hurry up and get that divorce!!!!".

Rather, she fed you a bogus reason, putting you off, stalling you: "Call me when you're single!" Whatever happened with you guys, she lost interest way back then. When a woman's really interested, she's not going to say "See ya sometime down the road. I'll still be around!" How would she know she'd still be available and not have met the man of her dreams down the road by the time your divorce makes it through the courts?

When you had your recent contact with her, she sensed you were re-initiating contact because the D was now finalized, and so she asked you if that was the case. You think she asked if the D was final because you think she was going to keep her word about seeing you when you're single. Nuh uh! She asked you if the D was final because that would let her know what your intent was in catching up with her. In other words, by asking you if the D was final, she was ascertaining whether you were just calling to chat OR were you calling to start seeing her again now that you're free? But she doesn't share that same intent you have.

So just like before, instead of being honest with you, she feeds you yet another stall: "Call me sometime!" That's her M.O. Plain to see.

So now that you're trying to contact her, she's fallen off the radar! Not returning any of your number of messages. No surprise.

So, it's not time nor divorce being scary or that there's anyone else (she could've said, "Oh, I have a boyfriend now!" but didn't), no sir! Stop thinking of excuses for her and accept the fact that her interest died before you were even aware of it.

Welcome back to the dating world. That's the way it is nowadays.

I told you that you wouldn't believe me.

 

[jophil28]

You're not going to believe me, but she lost interest back around when she told you she'd prefer you were single.

Hmmm , perhaps .
I have a different take on this,
There are some members of the female population who only form attachments to "unavailable men" . This is the type of woman who has affairs with married guys ,or in extreme cases, fall "in love"" with prisoners or even lifers.
I do not understand their psych make-up BUT probably they are doing this because they can have and enjoy the benefits,rewards and "feelings" that a relationship brings without the involvement and without paying the cost of committment that a conventional relationship entails.

My guess is that this type of woman is incapable of having a real adult relationship and prefers to exist in the fantasy of "how it will be" when he leaves his wife or gets out of Jail.
Then when he does get his freedom, and arrives on her doorstep, she bolts or bails. Why? Because it is all now too REAL for her. She now has to act like a big grown up girl and GIVE to the relationship , and this is what she is unfit and incapable of doing.

While ever he was not available, she was safe from committment and effort and could stay in her dream state.

NOt a suitable candidare for an LTR.

 

[Mr. Me]

There are some members of the female population who only form attachments to "unavailable men"

Yep. Female Commitment Phobes.

Then when he does get his freedom, and arrives on her doorstep, she bolts or bails.

But this one stopped seeing him before he became single. She bolted before he arrived single on her doorstep, back while he was still tied up in the divorce. How would you account for that?

 

[jophil28]

... A week or so later, I saw her and told her we needed to have a drink and catch up, she smiled and said the D is final, right. Then said call me and we'll catch up. Several messages later and one quick run into, she has sortof disappeared.

She finally bailed when he announced that his D was final - i.e he was "available".
Whatever her motivations, she has lost interest and he should cut her now.

 

[Mr. Me]

I see what you're saying, yet, she actually stopped seeing him back when she told him "look me up when you're single". She didn't intend to ever really date him down the line, which is why when he finally let her know that he was single, she bailed out for good.

If she was a CP who was into this guy, she wouldn't have stopped seeing him back then. What would've likely happened, is that she would've continued to see him and when he became single, she would've started distancing herself. She'd claim that her schedule's crazy, work's demanding, she has to pick up her mother from the hospital. If that didn't work, then she'd escalate to provoking arguments to push him away and try to get him to break things off. Then finally, if that didn't work, she would either have an affair or leave him flat to force its finality. That's the way CPs operate.

They work that way because "commitment phobics" can't commit either way: they can't say "yes" and they can't say "no". To stop seeing you is just as anxiety provoking for them as it is to continue seeing you, as both options require a commitment. They can't bail until the pain of being there is greater than the pain of bailing, and typically, they'll try to get you to be the one that does the dirty work of breaking up by forcing you to via their abusive behavior.

The behavior this woman exhibits is more in alignment with a woman who's lost interest, covers it over with stalls and then flakes.

 

[woggle]

Some of these were my thoughts. I'm just not ready to give up the ghost yet. There has been a pattern since way back. As in the case of nearly all of our lunches and a dinner thrown in along the way, she has sort of disappeared with very little contact every time before. Then a 3 or 4 weeks later, an email or text from her to me or me to her, would get things rolling again. Usually after a week or two of increasing discussion, we would end up meeting with these lunches and dinner lasting 2 to 3 hours of tremendous conversation. The topic ALWAYS got back to when and how we got attracted to each other. She would bring up specific things about our times together and then ask how things were coming with the D. The last great lunch we had, she told me to read a book with a storyline similar to ours where the guy makes a sacrifice down the road, actually makes a choice to walk away from true love. It also had a letter the gal in the book wrote to the guy spilling her guts how and why she loved him. My gal told me to read specific parts of the book if time was a constraint. After speed reading it, I was going to meet up with her to discuss but due to my schedule, I could not make it when and where she was that weekend. I sent her a text the day after and said lets meet for a walk, she said sure. An hour later I returned her text to find out where and when, no reply for 4 hours at which time it was almost dark and too late. She said sorry, got tied up with one of my kids, another time. Then there was almost total silence for almost 6 weeks, thru the holidays other than a simple text wishing a happy new year, which she responded in kind 10 minutes later. I sent her a couple of emails and texts over that time like I always did and she would respond, but not this time. Then she called out of the blue. We have had several quick in person meetings over the last 2 weeks as I had some work related materials she needed copies of. That is when I revealed my status to her. Thru this ordeal of D and waiting for things to happen, I have learned patience, something I never had much of in the past. And every time she disappears, she always reappears just like before and it we are able very quickly to pick up where we were before. Am I insane and is she like you guys are saying to think differently? I will continue, slowly, to see if she is "still there", but in the meantime, I have begun to mentally prepare to leave her behind and see what else the brave new world has to offer. Besides variety is the spice of life, correct.

 

[Mr. Me]

All you're describing in detail, woggle, is a woman with low interest, either that or she's a loon. The book excerpts, the topics of conversation, all that means nothing, really.

We could come up with several hundred theories about why she waxes and wanes. The bottom line though is, she does flake on you. Actions are louder than... book excerpts.

It's not that you're insane. It's that you're out of the loop. You've been married for some time and don't understand how women operate in the dating world. You're also driven by your ego which has a hard time facing rejection and would rather see all the reasons to hang in there.

As such, it's your ego speaking, for example, when you write, "I have begun to mentally prepare to leave her behind"... my friend, she already has left some time ago.

Here's what you do.

Don't contact her. Give her, as they say, the "gift of missing you".

Meet new woman. Get their phone numbers. Call them and make a simple date to go do something fun.

Don't get so attached to any woman who isn't even more attached to you in return.

Read the DJ Bible, the link to which is found at the bottom of this page. Specifically, the "book of pook" wherein he quotes "anti-dump", a former poster.

 

[woggle]

Thanks, MM. It has been awhile and theres a whole new world out there just like I've been told. It will be a challenge, but also an adventure like none i've ever witnessed.

 

[woggle]

Had a piece of business business to attend to via email with the gal in question. Sent her the pieces she needed and attached a little personal note telling her I'd take her to lunch or dinner, let me know your schedule. No response as of yet, but within reason of her historical m.o. I also ran into a "friend" of hers, an acquaintance of mine, who knows some of the deal and said she was asking him questions about the situation.

 

[Mr. Me]

attached a little personal note telling her I'd take her to lunch or dinner, let me know your schedule

That's a very weak approach, woggle.

And considering how she's not returned messages and has flaked on you, and has demonstracted by her actions that she's not interested, all you're doing is begging for more.

I also ran into a "friend" of hers, an acquaintance of mine, who knows some of the deal and said she was asking him questions about the situation.

Never speak to mutual friends about your love life. There are a number of reasons why that you're not aware of - and one or two of them are going to pertain to your specific situation.

Look, you're doing all the "chump" like things guys do regularly, AND you're also experiencing the fruits of it. Yet you hang in there hoping doing more of it will work. Isn't that insane?

 

[woggle]

I didn't do the fishing in the conversation, the friend did. I didn't act overly interested nor did I divulge any information or beg for help.

So over the past years old habits that we had and didn't use still remain, doing the "chump" things. Still getting hung up where we shouldn't be. You said it was a weak approach, it worked in the past, however the past is the past. I know you are all saying to bale, but IF you were to give it one last good shot, what's the approach?

 

[jophil28]

We could come up with several hundred theories about why she waxes and wanes. The bottom line though is, she does flake on you. Actions are louder than... book excerpts.

.

Yep, It really does not matter why she behaves as she does, it only matters that she is not ACTING in a way that shows a desire to connect with you frequently and in an energetic way.
Trying to measure a woman's IL with her subsequent behavior is foolish and misconceived.. Women are not like men in this regard. A man will ACT in a manner that is consistent with his IL . 'See Hot woman = chase and capture '. Women are not like this.

WOmen who are single, and in their '40s, are largely single for a very good reason.
The reason is that they are not skilled at creating and maintaining adult relationships. However they will ALL tell you how they were the loving devoted wife and an innocent victim of a cheating drunken raging loonie of a husband. The reality is usually vastly different.

Woggle, the point is this. Are you willing to spend your time and energy on a woman who is distant and confusing and is demonstrating behavior which is INCOMPATIBLE with what you want.
There are plenty of single women out there and most of them are also NOT suitable to be with a good man. YOu just need to be more active in dating lots of them until you find one who shows high levels of energy, interest and active involvement...

This whole process is like looking for a diamond in a dogpile.

 

[woggle]

The reason is that they are not skilled at creating and maintaining adult relationships. However they will ALL tell you how they were the loving devoted wife and an innocent victim of a cheating drunken raging loonie of a husband. The reality is usually vastly different.

Someone else, just an innocent bystander of a friend pointed that out. That she may have appeared like a dream, but she has been married twice. The first, severe depression and financial instability, the second a 42 y o never married who wanted to change her into the perfect servant and slave. Of course, thats her side of the story. Red flags.

Started reading Pooks book, will continue.

 

[Andromax]

Someone has a sig from Larry King that says, "If she keeps putting you on hold, time to hang up the phone."

 

[Mr. Me]

IF you were to give it one last good shot, what's the approach?

But you're beating a dead horse. This thing now only exists in your mind. She's not there. She has left the building and you're still trying to figure out what door you should open in the building to find her standing there.

And should you leave the building and run up to wherever she is and say "hey! Let me let you know that I'm still interested in you, despite the fact that you don't return my calls and you didn't keep the dates with me and that you disappear on me" - what are you asking for, given her pattern, except for more of the same?

The ONLY important factor is the woman's interest in you. If it's not there, perseverance doesn't create it. You only become an annoyance. Perseverance only works in Romantic Comedies. In real life, the things these guys do in movies to persevere after their objects of affection would get them arrested for stalking and harassing. Perseverance is not the way to attract a woman.

Turn it around: What if there was a woman you dated a bit but then decided you didn't wish to be with, were not interested in, but she kept on pursuing you? You shrugged her off, didn't return her calls, disappeared, flaked on her, you're just NOT interested. Oh, you maybe entertain a phone call from her now and then and chat a little and share a passage from a book, because you think you're being nice and civil and pleasant (but it also sends her a mixed message that encourages her), BUT overall, you're not into her, you DON'T want to date her, and your actions show it... but she perseveres anyway. In fact, just the other day, she sent you a little note asking you if you wanted to go out to lunch or dinner. What would YOU think?

So, you went through a divorce and I guess your ex was the one that left the relationship. Have you figured out what part you played in her not loving you any more? That's rather important soul searching stuff, but necessary so as to make changes so that it doesn't happen again. Relationships are but shadows of the two people in them, so there's a part you played that needs to be looked at before you can get involved with someone new. Whether it's that you neglected her, abused her in some way, dominated her or became supplicant or just chose the wrong person, there's a part you played.

I'm also guessing that because the divorce is rather recent, there's an injury in your esteem, and having the very next gal dump you only serves to pain that still raw wound again. You may have to be alone for a while to really become your own person again and center yourself, learn, grow, heal and then, when you're ready, seek someone new. In the meantime, just relax, let go, have fun, find new hobbies to take up, passions to pursue, fill your life with things you've always wanted to do, meet other women, not for love, but just for laughs.

 

[woggle]

Alright, I just got she just returned an amail from 5 days ago, apologizing for being so busy and not being able to get back to me. Then she says there's a lot going on right now and I know she has kids in high school one on the way to college, so they are doing all of that prep and her she has too many irons in too many fires at work and at school. And to wrap it all up she says sorry and I DO WANT TO catch up next week. Let me know what works?

How do you play it from here?