REALLY Tough Job Decision...

[Cod3r]

Hey guys,

I have two great opportunities in front of me, but a problem at the same time, its a good problem to have but its a problem none the less...

I'm currently a graduating senior and recently have been through 3 interviews with a financial securities holding company (RBC group) for a position on the trading desk. They interviewed 600 people for 6 slots and well just the other day I got a certified mail stating they offered me the position and would like to know my decision as soon as possible... Great right ??

Well just recently and unexpectantly through some back channels I was given the opportunity to interview with an AP at Bear Stearns for a 6 month internship and after about 2 hours of grilling and some reference checking, he called and said 'you're top of the list' and he'd let me know his decision next monday (not tommorow) since he's on vacation right now. The way the interview worked and his excitement about me, I pretty much figure 90% chance I'm going to get the position...

Now the problem...

Which way to go ?? I've thought about it up and down and can't come up with a decisive answer... i'll list some pro's and con's and just want to hear you guys thoughts or what you would do... I know it only matters what I want, but other input would be helpful.... especially from some older guys

RBC -Trading Desk

PRO's

1. I LOVE trading
2. Full-time employment upon graduation (start training as soon as i accept)

a. 6 months training, would coincide with 6 months until I graduate... so timing works out perfectly

3. Potential for ALOT of money...

Don't want to go into details, but we'd be getting starting capital over $50,000 with take home, 70% of trading profits.... THEY eat the losses

CON'S

1. It's risky -- No salary or consistent paycheck (ur good = $$, u suck = 0$)

--
Bear Stearns

PRO's

1. It's the most presitgious firm on Wall Street, maybe second to Goldman Sachs. Having this on my resume with previous experience I already have, upon completion of the internship, I could work ANYWHERE and command a good deal of change...

2. The guy has connections everywhere, and said he'd basically write me a ticket to my future if I did a good job for him... Scratch his back, scratch yours type of thing...

3. The guy REALLY liked me -- It wasn't just an 'i'm qualified' type of interview, he told me I reminded him of someone that used to work under him who is now the VP @ Sachs... This special interest could translate into special treatment, aka he'd be like my mentor...

4. I come from lower-ranked school and beat out (if offered of course) 100's of applicants from Columbia University, NYU, UCLA, ect... feels like I should take the opportunity ya know ??

CON's

1. It's unpaid internship for 6 months (ugh that hurts)

2. I'd have to do some typical intern things... at RBC, I'd already be high profile and sitting amongst some of the best traders in the market...

--
Again, this is a big decision for me and just want your input... I've asked parents, girlfriend, friends, and teachers and I've gotten theres and could use some more as I still haven't made my mind up yet... and I've only got one week to do it... Tks



-Cod3r

 

[Oxide]

Ok, take this from the guy whose experience was just going to the Chicago Exhchanges:

I would pick the latter in the heartbeat. You can start working as a trader anytime, and still have a lot of years to go. With the latter set up, you will know what you like in 6 months without being tied down with the job already, and can look at some very lucrative offers.

I am studying for a corporate finance test all night tonight. Wanna take the final for me tomorrow?


Also. Here is a good test: Take a quarter. Assign heads and tails and flip it.

Ok, actually do this. take a coin. Flip it.

Flipped?

Don't read until you did.

Now that it landed on a certain side, do you kind of wish it landed on the opposite? Then this is your choice.

 

[~attrACTION~]

^ even better question, how the heck did you manage to qualify for those awesome jobs?

*quite envious*

Seriously though, tough decision. I have a friend who was posed with several jobs like that out of school, and he chose the more stable one at Goldman Sachs, in NYC. Now, 6 years later, he's worked his way up and is very, I mean very, well-off.

Honestly though, I would appreciate if you could tell us how you really got such opportunities. What clubs/organizations have you been involved with, what sort of things do you have on your resume, previous work experience, do you have really good grades, senior projects that stand out, exceptional personality, etc.?

Thanks, and best of luck.

 

[Cod3r]

I would pick the latter in the heartbeat. You can start working as a trader anytime, and still have a lot of years to go. With the latter set up, you will know what you like in 6 months without being tied down with the job already, and can look at some very lucrative offers.

That's what I was thinking, having 6 months to really learn and experience different fields within the industry, I'd have dabbled in options, futures, fixed income, WM, ect... Maybe trading is my first love because I haven't experienced these other things eh ?? Tks for the clarification

^ even better question, how the heck did you manage to qualify for those awesome jobs?

*quite envious*

Seriously though, tough decision. I have a friend who was posed with several jobs like that out of school, and he chose the more stable one at Goldman Sachs, in NYC. Now, 6 years later, he's worked his way up and is very, I mean very, well-off.

Honestly though, I would appreciate if you could tell us how you really got such opportunities. What clubs/organizations have you been involved with, what sort of things do you have on your resume, previous work experience, do you have really good grades, senior projects that stand out, exceptional personality, etc.?

Thanks, and best of luck.

Just a little background:

In highschool I was top 5% of my class 3.89 GPA and got accepted to Univ. of Pitt for full scholarship majoring in Comp. Science. I took about 4 semesters and figured Pitt wasn't for me and transferred into the city to a smaller private school and switched major into Accounting/Finance...

Once in the city I got in with a pretty good company (won't be named) and worked my way up to a better position, after that I got in with a Wall St. firm and stayed in one position for 8 months, but then got accepted into Research and Analysis group for another 3 months... so that's 1 year Wall. St. experience and another 9 months of corporate experience from the first job...

School -> I'm amongst top of the class right now...

Also, I got great references from a pretty well known guy on Wall St. from my last job. He's an author of a few books and appears on CNBC and bloomberg ect... so he gave me an excellent recommendation and that always helps...

Finally, I'm very active within the market. Probably more so than alot of other college students, in research and analysis we'd have to be up ALL night tracking movements within the currency, equity and bond markets... Eventho now I don't work there, I still track EVERYTHING and am knowledgeable of pretty much everything going on in the market at any given time... I also have my own capital at stake within the market and know how to trade (obviously) and analyze what's going on...

During the interview, usually I can relate to them moreso than most people. I love the market and it shows, they love the market obviously and we end up talking like old drinking buddies about certain movements and I dunno I just have good interviewing skills...

I guess its alot of experience versus 99% of other college graduates and also of course i'm smart and mature, and probably because I interview very well...


-Cod3r

 

[Cod3r]

And you still managed to maintain a social life? That's very impressive Cod3r.

Somewhat of a social life.. no time for friends really, just enough time for the gf

What do you trade? You mentioned currency, is that through Forex?
I have zero experience with this stuff, but I'm interested in the economics/trading field. I know the thread isn't meant for this, but could you explain how you got into trading and how it is to work with it (hours, colleagues etc)?

I trade currency with my own capital, the job offer at RBC is equity trading...

I got a job as in intern at a financial firm, after a few months I showed interest in trading and befriended my boss who opened doors for me. He taught me alot about it, put me in some courses, started my own account... Then moved into R&A which is HEAVY analysis and that also taught me respect for traders and the market...

I worked the Euro Shift when in R&A (12 00am - 8 00am) Monday-Sunday...

Trading isn't for everyone, that's for sure


-Cod3r

 

[Bible_Belt]

RBC -Trading Desk

PRO's

1. I LOVE trading
2. Full-time employment upon graduation (start training as soon as i accept)

a. 6 months training, would coincide with 6 months until I graduate... so timing works out perfectly

3. Potential for ALOT of money...

Don't want to go into details, but we'd be getting starting capital over $50,000 with take home, 70% of trading profits.... THEY eat the losses

CON'S

1. It's risky -- No salary or consistent paycheck (ur good = $$, u suck = 0$)

How much will they let you margin that $50K? Do you mean $50K of buying power? That's not enough money, unless they start you out trading small amounts and increase your buying power. I traded for Worldco, and they had me up to about $500K buying power within a couple of months. You need money to make money. With a Series 7, you can get 10:1 margin on intraday positions, but most young people still don't have enough money of their own.

I say go with Bear Sterns. Later in life, it will not be so hard to come up with $30-50K from a friend or investor, margin the hell out of it, and be a pro trader through that route. Proprietary trading is exciting; I did it for a few years, but it will always be there when you are ready to return to it.

 

[Cod3r]

How much will they let you margin that $50K? Do you mean $50K of buying power? That's not enough money, unless they start you out trading small amounts and increase your buying power. I traded for Worldco, and they had me up to about $500K buying power within a couple of months. You need money to make money. With a Series 7, you can get 10:1 margin on intraday positions, but most young people still don't have enough money of their own.

I say go with Bear Sterns. Later in life, it will not be so hard to come up with $30-50K from a friend or investor, margin the hell out of it, and be a pro trader through that route. Proprietary trading is exciting; I did it for a few years, but it will always be there when you are ready to return to it.

We do have risk parameters that I won't discuss specifically. I will not start trading until I pass the Series 7 (they will sponsor) which I will take sometime during the training if I do decide to accept the offer. As you show returns on the balance they increase your capital, so it depends on how good you are...

I like the advice you gave, that's what i'm leaning towards right now. The fact that if I head to Bear and do a great job, it opens ALOT of doors for me. Even doors to trading if in the end that's what I want to do... You're right trading will always be there, but BearStearns is a once in a lifetime opportunity... Also I'd get alot more experience at Bear, make me more valuable than I already am in the marketplace...

Would you mind disclosing your income while u were prop trading ?? If you'd rather do it privately, hit me with a PM... I'd appreciate it...


-Cod3r

 

[Celadus]

That is a tough decision. Good thing no one like BS would hire me. Maybe not so good, let you know in a year. I went straight to a prop firm. If I had to work for a bank, BS would be it. I hear they are big on the poor, smart and hungry guys.

I'd say go for the internship. Its only six months. Most prop firms are always looking for new people. A BS internship might even open up better prop shops to you.

 

[Cod3r]

Do you have the resources to live for long until you are profitable? I'd say go for the internship. Its only six months. Most prop firms are always looking for new people. A BS internship might even open up better prop shops to you.

I'd have the resources yes, my parents... but they are a tad unsupportive of the 'trading' thing... they don't understand it, they are the 'guarnateed income' people, its cool I don't expect them to understand... They would support tho...

I'm 70% going with BS right now, the points you guys bring up are great and the same ones I've thought about. BS has a trading desk of its own, so with great internship I could end up trading for BS or somewhere even better...

Tks so much for the help


-Cod3r

 

[Bible_Belt]

At the time I worked for Worldco, almost every trader was on different terms. Worldco was trying to get new traders to put up their own money like Bright still does today. With your own money to shelter risk, payouts are 90%plus. But I put up no money at all, so my payout began at just 50%. The company actually makes more off of you in commissions than they make in their share of trading profits. Win or lose, everybody pays commissions, and the proprietary firms tend to charge a little more than the going market rate because you have no choice but to trade through them. But the trading markets were changing dramatically and the old business model stopped working. There was not enough intraday volatility in the stock market; compared to the boom and bust 90's, there's not nearly as much movement to ride. I left Worldco right before the sh!t hit the fan with their management:
http://www.nasd.com/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2004NewsReleases/NASDW_002861

The stock market is a sleazy business. You always have to wonder if the person you are talking to is full of sh!t. Be wary of who you trust; for some reason this business attracts unsavory characters. But if you get in with the right people and a big-name firm, you should do well.

 

[Celadus]

Keep in mind that an investment bank trading desk is a lot different than a prop firm. I started out applying to trading desks because I thought it was prop trading but its not.

Prop trading is pretty sleazy. Only a firm firms I'd trust. A firm that makes you get a Series 7 is a big plus.

Real estate is the same way. The opportunity for quick money attracts a lot of bad people.

 

[Cod3r]

Keep in mind that an investment bank trading desk is a lot different than a prop firm. I started out applying to trading desks because I thought it was prop trading but its not.

Prop trading is pretty sleazy. Only a firm firms I'd trust. A firm that makes you get a Series 7 is a big plus.

Real estate is the same way. The opportunity for quick money attracts a lot of bad people.

Yeah I know, the good thing about this firm offering the trading position is that they are NOT a prop firm. They are a financial holding company with a prop trading wing, it is not their center business. RBC is the company and they are publicly held, very offical company... not some sleazy shop...

Also, Series 7 is required (must pass on 1st try or you're out). Before you can start trading, 6 month training required... no initial capital required and payout is 70% and they absorb losses.... it's a pretty nice deal I'd say...

--
Anyway, i'm thinking BS is the way to go if they offer me the position... Tks again for the thoughts and experiences, always welcome !


-Cod3r

 

[Oxide]

So do I really need all this 3.912 GPA to get a trader job? I was pretty sure with the 90% employee turnover on the exchanges it wouldn't be very hard to get a job.

I do remember them saying that they are looking for people who think outside the box -and they posed two questions for me both of which I answered with the correct perspective..

Also, what would be a good start in Forex? Like if I wanted to learn how to do it and get some kind of an internship or a job what kind of requirements and benefits am I presented with?

 

[Celadus]

Forex is tough stuff to make money in. So many more variables than stock and commodities. The companies can be a lot shadier than stock trading because forex is almost completely unregulated. Good companies that provide salaries want a good candidate with good grades or atleast an interesting candidate. A lot of firms that require money upfront will take just about anyone willing to risk money.I think its better for longer term but thats just a little negativity on my part. So many people have told me the same thing about equities and I don't believe them. Might want to check with FXCM and Oanda for employment or some of the other big firms. I had a list of firms but trashed it. The small and shadier companies won't offer internships unless you can get on the phone and talk to someone important tell them what you can offer. As for floor trading, its pretty tough to get into as far as I've learned. Basically have to know someone.

Check out elitetrader.com to do a little research. Take everything you read over there with a lot of skeptism. I think most of the guys there are unprofitable and bitter. But you should be able to find some good facts and get a good idea of the industry. The one thing I've heard is if you plan on doing forex professionally, make sure your firm gives you good access to the interbank market. A lot of firms act as an intermediary and screw you in price. Oanda is one of the best retail firms and I watched the spread go from 3 pips to 15 pips due to a pending fed decision. That'll cost you $120 per lot instantly.

Almost every firm is different. Make a chart and compare them and make the choice that fits you the best.
Just do a ton of research, becareful if you have to sign any contratcts, stick with reputable firms.


Codr: Hear anything from BS?

 

[MisterNigma]

For what it's worth;

Bear Stearns

"It's not what you know, it's who you know."


-E.Nigma