Reality is an illusion; the universe is a hologram.

[Desert Fox]

Even if the universe is a hologram, this does not imply that consciousness creates our bodies or that ghosts are real or any of the other paranormal stuff mentioned.

People are always trying to slip god and spirits in the cracks of our knowledge. Which is exactly what this article looks like.

+1 rep

 

[speakeasy]

haha typical. A brainless Jesus Freak dropping names like Einstein making him seem like a believer.

Also typical is people not wanting to debate God because for debate you need facts. It's inevitable religion loses every time because there is no proof.

But you're right we should not debate this, not because you're right or your subject is off limits, but rather because I don't have time to waste talking to people who believe in fairy tales.

You come off as really arrogant whether you realize it or not. It's all just theory, food for thought, s something interesting to philosophize about. I don't know why it has to launch into attacking people and their beliefs.

The article was interesting, that quantum particles seem to be instantaneously connected no matter what the distance. That's fascinating. And says that there's a hell of a lot about this universe that is a mystery. I think we know so little about these underworkings that I can't be arrogant enough to say what exists and what doesn't exist. We simply don't know. Maybe what we call the spiritual realm is simply another dimension of the multiverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse), a concept which is getting more and more attention in theoretical physics. We have a VERY LONG way to go in understanding how the universe works, so before we beat up people for their different theories, just try to keep an open mind, because no matter what side of the fence you sit on, you may one day be shown to be wrong.

What I notice about hardline atheists is that it is not just as simple as not believing in a god or paranormal , they are angered by even the very notion alone that there may be something more than the physical world. I don't know where that anger comes from. Maybe they were raised by abusive, religious parents and they are still venting their pent up childhood frustration.

 

[horaholic]

haha typical. A brainless Jesus Freak dropping names like Einstein making him seem like a believer.

Also typical is people not wanting to debate God because for debate you need facts. It's inevitable religion loses every time because there is no proof.

But you're right we should not debate this, not because you're right or your subject is off limits, but rather because I don't have time to waste talking to people who believe in fairy tales.

God, and religion are two different things. Religion is to God, as Science is the all laws of the universe. We barely know anything about either. Do you think science is bvllshyt because there are many things that should be scientifically impossible, yet are here anyway? Science cannot begin to explain how evolution works as fast as it does. Yet they refuse to believe that there MIGHT be something MORE at work than science alone, whether it be God, genetic memory, or collective consciousness, or all of the above.

My guess is, if we ever understand full what God really is, we will find that God is fully explainable by science in a way we cannot possibly comprehend.

A few hundred years ago, pulling something out of your pocket and making a flame with the flick of your finger would be considered witchcraft or magic. These same people would think you are a 'brainless believer in fairy tales' if you argued against the world being flat. Anyone see a correlation here? Hardcore athiests are just as bad as hardcore religious nuts. Both refuse to accept that there are endless things beyond our understanding, and we dont know whether its God, or science, or both, or something that we wont even consider to be God as we think of, when we figure it out.

Do you have any proof that I'm a living, breathing, human being sitting behind a computer right now? Does that mean I dont exist? I might be an alien, a monkey, a figment of your imagination, Jesus himself, former President Bush, a ghost, a robot, bigfoot, darth vader, Felix the cat, or a computer crash generating random bits of information that somehow piece together a coherent paragraph. You know NOTHING about ANYTHING, just like the rest of us. If you at least admit it, you're smarter than most.

 

[Desert Fox]

God, and religion are two different things. Religion is to God, as Science is the all laws of the universe. We barely know anything about either.

Wrong. We sure as hell know more about the laws of the universe than we do about God. Oh, and what we know is verifiable. Can you even tell me what God looks like? Nope. You're wrong.

Do you think science is bvllshyt because there are many things that should be scientifically impossible, yet are here anyway? Science cannot begin to explain how evolution works as fast as it does. Yet they refuse to believe that there MIGHT be something MORE at work than science alone, whether it be God, genetic memory, or collective consciousness, or all of the above.

Wrong again. Look up punctuated evolution. Evolution is a proven fact unlike religion. Mass extinctions also contribute to drastic evolutionary changes. For example without the extinction of the dinosaurs we would not be here today most likely. Please don't talk trash about science not knowing when religion is and always will be vacant of logic.

My guess is, if we ever understand full what God really is, we will find that God is fully explainable by science in a way we cannot possibly comprehend.

I agree here. If there is a God, science will find it. However, chances are it is not going to be anything like what is written in the Bible or Koran or any of those ancient best selling fiction novels.

A few hundred years ago, pulling something out of your pocket and making a flame with the flick of your finger would be considered witchcraft or magic. These same people would think you are a 'brainless believer in fairy tales' if you argued against the world being flat. Anyone see a correlation here? Hardcore athiests are just as bad as hardcore religious nuts. Both refuse to accept that there are endless things beyond our understanding, and we dont know whether its God, or science, or both, or something that we wont even consider to be God as we think of, when we figure it out.

Wrong again. Unlike hardcore believers, the atheists such as myself, or rather...instead of calling myself an atheist...scientists such as myself do not need faith or beliefs. It is simple empirical and what is, is what is. The only reason the world was proved to be round is due to experimentation which is inherent in science. Unfortunately, putting religion or alchemy up to any experimental test will render it a mirage. The purpose of experiments is to constant prove yourself WRONG. If you FAIL at proving yourself WRONG, then you are 99.999999% not wrong. At that point we accept it as generally true. We cannot say this about religion. There is no test out there for that. So if it's not even 0.0000001% true you cannot say it is true. You can believe it, but you cannot say its true.

Do you have any proof that I'm a living, breathing, human being sitting behind a computer right now? Does that mean I dont exist? I might be an alien, a monkey, a figment of your imagination, Jesus himself, former President Bush, a ghost, a robot, bigfoot, darth vader, Felix the cat, or a computer crash generating random bits of information that somehow piece together a coherent paragraph.

I don't have proof of that, but then again because I am a rational human being and I am not an imbecile I do not occupy myself with questions like that. It is generally accepted that people use the internet and string together opinions...some better than others, but nonetheless it is people who use the internet. So there's a low probability you happen to be a very smart monkey or alien or whatnot.

You know NOTHUING about ANYTHING, just like the rest of us. If you at least admit it, you're smarter than most.

I am not content with admitting I don't know something. If I don't know and it's a worthy question, I will pursue the answer instead of sitting on my ass and saying "hmm I guess I'll never know" or daydream about it and come up with crap like the Bible like 99% of the world.

My responses are in bold.

 

[Desert Fox]

You come off as really arrogant whether you realize it or not. It's all just theory, food for thought, s something interesting to philosophize about. I don't know why it has to launch into attacking people and their beliefs.

I agree with you here. It's their right to believe anything, but is it not my right to believe they are retarded for doing so? I am voicing my opinion that their opinion is dumb and wrong. I hope you are not saying you want only them to have an opinion and to shut me up because it makes them feel uncomfortable.

The article was interesting, that quantum particles seem to be instantaneously connected no matter what the distance. That's fascinating. And says that there's a hell of a lot about this universe that is a mystery. I think we know so little about these underworkings that I can't be arrogant enough to say what exists and what doesn't exist. We simply don't know. Maybe what we call the spiritual realm is simply another dimension of the multiverse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse), a concept which is getting more and more attention in theoretical physics. We have a VERY LONG way to go in understanding how the universe works, so before we beat up people for their different theories, just try to keep an open mind, because no matter what side of the fence you sit on, you may one day be shown to be wrong.

And maybe it's a goddamn leprechaun on a unicorn that sh*ts out humans faster than the speed of light that put us on the planet. This is at worst a possibility equally plausible to having a God.


What I notice about hardline atheists is that it is not just as simple as not believing in a god or paranormal , they are angered by even the very notion alone that there may be something more than the physical world. I don't know where that anger comes from. Maybe they were raised by abusive, religious parents and they are still venting their pent up childhood frustration.

My parents were never religious and I was only exposed to religion through friends. Fortunately for me when I heard about their God stories and Noah's Ark and all that bullsh*t my brain was developed before it could be attacked by these fairy tales unlike my pitiful friends who were brainwashed by the church and priests, and maybe the priests did a little more than brainwashing to some of them :crackup: . But back on topic, it is frustration that some people don't realize the truth, but whatever. I know the true purpose of religion, which is to control the masses and herd them like sheep to help the powerful and those at the top accomplish their goals. Why do you think all politicians are religious? Because it gets votes. In that respect I will probably turn to religion, but as a follower? As a true believe? Hell no.

Responses in bold.

 

[Rogue]

James Randi likes to call believers unsinkable rubber ducks. It's the corollary of confirmation bias: disconfirmation avoidance.

 

[Bible_Belt]

haha typical. A brainless Jesus Freak dropping names like Einstein making him seem like a believer.

Also typical is people not wanting to debate God because for debate you need facts. It's inevitable religion loses every time because there is no proof.

But you're right we should not debate this, not because you're right or your subject is off limits, but rather because I don't have time to waste talking to people who believe in fairy tales.

Nor will you ever convince anyone of anything by being an angry bitter a55hole. It's not the Jesus freaks who keep us from being able to have a civil discussion. Being so jaded and pissy does not sell your cause very well.

 

[speakeasy]

To Desert Fox-

There are scientists and rationalists who believe in the existence of a God. Don't be so arrogant as to assume that anyone who has a belief in a God is hopelessly irrational. You apparently have an axe to grind and your sheer belligerence on the subject is beyond the rational in itself.

Religion exists within the realm of philosophy. Science has a place and philosophy has a place. The purpose of science is to explain the mechanics of how something in the physical universe works. The purpose of philosophy is to give meaning and values to the things that happen. Religion does not explain the how as to why things happen, and Science does not explain the ultimate purpose of why these things exists in the first place or provide for anything like morals or a value structure. In my opinion, they both have a place, but a different place, and believing in both science/philosophy and religion is not contradictory so long as you respect the line between the two and recognize that they have inherantly different purposes. Religions do a horrible job of explaining how things work, and scientists have no way of giving meaning or value or morals to life or to the things that exist in the world.

Also, as for your claim that the purpose of religion is to control the masses. Yes, and that's a damn good thing. If you want to see a society where the masses are out of control, move to Congo or Rwanda and see how much you like it. If you go back far enough in history, all moral values emanate from the realm of religion. The things we take as axiomatic did not neccessarily exist prior. If you took 10 newborn kids and dropped them off on an island with no social social contact, they would basically be wild animals like apes. They would have no values, no morality, they would behave like animals in the natural world and fight, kill and steal one another's food to survive and have the best shot at mating. We take for granted just how much religion has CIVILIZED humanity. Not to say that religions haven't been through their dark period or led by megalomaniacs, but my point is, values don't exist in a vacumm. Science doesn't provide them and neither does the natural world.

 

[Desert Fox]

To Desert Fox-

There are scientists and rationalists who believe in the existence of a God. Don't be so arrogant as to assume that anyone who has a belief in a God is hopelessly irrational. You apparently have an axe to grind and your sheer belligerence on the subject is beyond the rational in itself.

Religion exists within the realm of philosophy. Science has a place and philosophy has a place. The purpose of science is to explain the mechanics of how something in the physical universe works. The purpose of philosophy is to give meaning and values to the things that happen. Religion does not explain the how as to why things happen, and Science does not explain the ultimate purpose of why these things exists in the first place or provide for anything like morals or a value structure. In my opinion, they both have a place, but a different place, and believing in both science/philosophy and religion is not contradictory so long as you respect the line between the two and recognize that they have inherantly different purposes. Religions do a horrible job of explaining how things work, and scientists have no way of giving meaning or value or morals to life or to the things that exist in the world.

Also, as for your claim that the purpose of religion is to control the masses. Yes, and that's a damn good thing. If you want to see a society where the masses are out of control, move to Congo or Rwanda and see how much you like it. If you go back far enough in history, all moral values emanate from the realm of religion. The things we take as axiomatic did not neccessarily exist prior. If you took 10 newborn kids and dropped them off on an island with no social social contact, they would basically be wild animals like apes. They would have no values, no morality, they would behave like animals in the natural world and fight, kill and steal one another's food to survive and have the best shot at mating. We take for granted just how much religion has CIVILIZED humanity. Not to say that religions haven't been through their dark period or led by megalomaniacs, but my point is, values don't exist in a vacumm. Science doesn't provide them and neither does the natural world.

True in the past when there were no laws, the dumb people had to be controlled by a greater force that would doom them to eternal hell and sufferring if they sinned. Watch the movie "Rapa Nui" and you will see what I mean.

But now times have changed, we are a modern society (I'm pretty sure you're not from Rwanda), we have laws and something known as getting assraped in prison or the death penalty as deterrents. Get it straight, religion did not inject some moral fiber into people. It simply injected FEAR and acted as a DETERRENT same as today's laws. Nothing has changed. However, I agree with you agreeing with me how religion is used to control people.

Second, science does not provide meaning? If you cannot see the meaning in curing a disease, or developing new technology and need philosophy to do that, then you need to think a little harder. Anyone who is not inspired by great scientific accomplishments and discoveries is not realizing their true awesomeness. We put goddamn people into space...in SPACE! In this vast universe we were able to develop through no help but our own human ingenuity and intellect the technology to go into space. That is inspiring to me, and I hope it is for others. But even flight...is that not just amazing? We can fly and go half way around the world in less than a day....amazing.

You actually present very good points here and I agree that religion and science are 100% different things, they are of different realms and cannot be compared on an equal wavelength. It's like comparing apples and oranges so to speak. Different purpose and function.

So you see, that is my whole problem with this thinly veined pseudo-science article, and the religious folk in the country today. Not all religious folk...if you want to keep it private, and in your church, that's fine with me. But the second you try to bring that into public issues like stem cell research or not teaching evolution in schools, then those fanatics need to go back to the ignorant corner and shut up. This article tries to blend SCIENCE and the SUPERNATURAL. So that is what bothers me. Not some hidden childhood trauma I am apparently unaware about, not bitter resentment towards a priest I never had, but rather the nefarious pretext that this article reeks of.