Quick fish oil questions..

[JohnnyIrish]

1) Do the caps go bad? If so how long till they do?
(I bought some in Dec and they've been in my fridge since then)

2) I'm adding them back into my routine. From what I read a good starting dose is 10g a day. That about right?

 

[KarmaSutra]

Should be fine. I'd take them out of the fridge and keep them room temperature. They could give you a stomach issue due to the amount of time they'll sit in your belly due to being stiff and cold.

10 grams / day is a good starting point. I went to 20 grams / day for a week but I had the shizzles so I backed down to 15.

 

[Drum&Bass]

From what I read a good starting dose is 10g a day. That about right?

For what reason ?? why are you taking so much fish oil ??

 

[JohnnyIrish]

For what reason ?? why are you taking so much fish oil ??

Mainly for the assist with lowering bf and helping with joints but knowing it also helps keep my heart healthy doesn't hurt my feelings any.

(I originally bought this when I had a higher bf.. and while I lost a decent amount of bf, a goal I have is to have visible abs come summer)

 

[Omen]

For the first part, just look at the expiration date on the bottle. If you dont have the bottle, then go by when you purchased them. Most of the time, you are good a year unopened, and then less for others.

On your second deal.... This topic has been beaten to death many many months ago about how much to take. We all had our opinion, and my opinion was you dont need that much. Others swore to take it, quoted Charles Poliquin and what not, but I still said you dont need that much. I respect Charles and many things he says, but seeing how I totally corrected one of his statements on Antioxidants, he is not a fan of mine when it comes to supplements.

Aside from that, you have to look at the SOURCE of the fish oil. People's main reason for fish oil is the content of EPA/DHA. Not every fish is the same, so saying I take 10g of fish oil means absolutely nothing in regards to the amount of EPA/DHA

I'll personally do about 2g/day. At max I would do 4.6g which is about 1tsp if you do something like carlson's liquid from Cod.

At that dose above, and the combo of EPA/DHA, you would get 1g (again combined) which would be about equivalent to the research I listed in bold. And that is with patients WITH CORONARY ARTERY DISEASE. With half a tsp, you'd get what is shown for healthy people without the disease.

The research is still slim on large doses. The recent one with 6g was

Br J Nutr. 2008 Mar 13;:1-7 [Epub ahead of print]
Docosahexaenoic acid-rich fish oil improves heart rate variability and heart rate responses to exercise in overweight adults.

Mayo Clin Proc. 2008 Mar;83(3):324-32.
Omega3 Fatty acids for cardioprotection.
Lee JH, O'Keefe JH, Lavie CJ, Marchioli R, Harris WS.

Address correspondence to James H. O'Keefe, MD, 4330 Wornall Rd, Ste 2000, Kansas City, MO 64111 ([email protected]).

The most compelling evidence for the cardiovascular benefit provided by omega-3 fatty acids comes from 3 large controlled trials of 32,000 participants randomized to receive omega-3 fatty acid supplements containing docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) or to act as controls. These trials showed reductions in cardiovascular events of 19% to 45%. These findings suggest that intake of omega-3 fatty acids, whether from dietary sources or fish oil supplements, should be increased, especially in those with or at risk for coronary artery disease. Patients should consume both DHA and EPA. The target DHA and EPA consumption levels are about 1 g/d for those with known coronary artery disease and at least 500 mg/d for those without disease. Patients with hypertriglyceridemia benefit from treatment with 3 to 4 g/d of DHA and EPA, a dosage that lowers triglyceride levels by 20% to 50%. Although 2 meals of oily fish per week can provide 400 to 500 mg/d of DHA and EPA, secondary prevention patients and those with hypertriglyceridemia must use fish oil supplements if they are to reach 1 g/d and 3 to 4 g/d of DHA and EPA, respectively. Combination therapy with omega-3 fatty acids and a statin is a safe and effective way to improve lipid levels and cardiovascular prognosis beyond the benefits provided by statin therapy alone. Blood DHA and EPA levels could one day be used to identify patients with deficient levels and to individualize therapeutic recommendations.

So since this topic was murdered before, YOU are going to have to make the decision since everyone is all over the board on this topic. Dont forget to look at what you eat too. I eat fish 2-3x per week, so this is why you wont see my levels in the form of supplements any higher

 

[Quagmire911]

"The Single Best Supplement

Q: What's one supplement that every athlete, weekend warrior, and basically any active person should be taking daily?

A: Fish oil. I was first introduced to fish oil twelve years ago by my friend Mauro DiPasquale. I was over at his house and he had fish oil on the counter. I asked him what he used it for and he said, "Charles, this is the most important supplement ever."

He told me to go to Medline and punch in any disease known to man and the words "fish oil" beside it. He challenged me to find a study that didn't show how fish oil could benefit in the treatment of any disease. I gave up after 86 studies!

Why is it so beneficial? It's in our genes. Humans used to consume 300-400 grams of omega-3s per week. If we consume more than two grams a day now it's considered a lot.

There was a study published four years ago that showed that if the US government issued three grams of fish oil per day to American citizens, then the amount of cancer and heart disease would go down by 50% within one year. Most readers don't care about cancer and heart disease, but they may care about this: the biggest limiting factor in naturally training people to getting lean and adding muscle is the consumption (or lack thereof) of omega-3s.

Looking at the body structure of cavemen, they had a lot of muscle mass compared to modern man. They got their omega-3s through the meats they ate. Now, they often ate what the predators left. For example, a lion will eat an antelope from the gut on, so what's left is the skull and long bones. Primitive man would break the skull open and eat the brains. Brains are 60% fat, and 60% of that is DHA, the omega-3. What they've found is that the more brain-sucking was going in those potions, the faster the IQ went up.

"I've lost my appetite."

Primitive man would also break the bones of the prey and suck the marrow, also rich in omega-3, DHA particularly. DHA is the omega-3 most responsible for brain development while EPA is most associated with reducing inflammation.

My athletes would often recognize each other when sitting around a table because those I'd be training would break out the fish oil during the meal. That's how I got the nickname "the fish oil guy" among athletes. But that's also how I get people so lean so fast.

Anyone who wants to put on muscle and lose fat should be on 30-45 grams of fish oil per day. That's just three tablespoons of fish oil. It would be a pain in the ass with capsules though because that's around 45 capsules per day, but it's easy with a straight oil.

Flameout is also a great product. I like the addition of CLA to the EPA and DHA because most of the potion is deficient in CLA. When I travel abroad I bring four or five bottles of Flameout instead of my liquid fish oil and take four or five capsules a day.

For those of us interested in positively and optimally altering body composition and maximizing our training efforts, fish oils offer thirteen possible advantages:

1. Cell membrane health: EPA and DHA insure that cell membranes remain healthy. This means that the membranes are flexible and contain larger numbers of insulin receptors that are more receptive and responsive to circulating insulin. This results in decreased fat storage in the adipocytes (fat cells).

2. Fish oils turn on the lipolytic genes (fat burning genes).

3. Fish oils turn off the lipogenic genes (fat storage genes).

4. Fish oils diminish C-reactive proteins, a newly identified risk factor associated with various inflammatory diseases, including atherosclerosis, angina, coronary heart disease, heart attack, stroke, congestive heart failure, and diabetes. The DHA fraction of the fish oil seems to be one most responsible for that protective effect. DHA also has the best ability to reduce blood pressure.

5. Increase utilization of fat stores from the adipocytes.

6. Preferential utilization for energy production once stored in the adipocytes.

7. Reduced inflammation from physical training.

8. Pain management from the reduced inflammation.

9. EPA regulates blood supply to the brain which is essential in maintaining focus in weight training sessions. DHA is important in brain membranes, memory, and cognitive function.

10. Fish oils increase serotonin levels (the happy neurotransmitter). Therefore, fish oils will decrease incidence of depression, anxiety, panic attack, and reduce carbohydrate cravings.

11. Fish oils will improve your cardiovascular risk profile by lowering VLDL, triglycerides, homocysteine, fibrinogen, and increasing HDL levels. Combining fish oils with plant sterols will improve lipid levels even more than either alone.

12. Fish oils can also decrease blood pressure by several mechanisms. These include increases in the vasodilatory compound, nitric oxide, reducing vascular inflammation, blocking the constrictive elements in the vascular wall such as the calcium channels reducing blood viscosity, and inhibiting a blood vessel constrictor (thromboxane). Lipoprotein (a) is another CVD predictor that can be lowered by fish oils (a 19% reduction was seen with natural, stable fish oils and just 4% with a highly purified fish oil).

13. Fish oils are a great stress fighter. Supplementation with n-3 fatty acids inhibits the adrenal activation of steroids, aldosterone, epinephrine, and norepinephrine (catecholamines) elicited by a mental stress, apparently through effects exerted at the level of the central nervous system. Therefore, for the same amount of stress, one will produce fewer stress hormones if consuming fish oils on a regular basis.

In short, fish oil is my number one supplement recommendation!"

By Charles Poliquin.

Take two, five times a day, throughout the day.

 

[Master Bates]

I thought I was just imagining it at first, but I eventually linked my feeling of constant tiredness and sort of mild-flu like feeling in my face to taking fish oil. I've read at least one other person on the net claim to get the same effect. I've tried going on and off it three times and that crappy tired feeling always comes and goes along with it a week or so after I start/stop. Tried different brands too, and have taken between 3-10g a day. Don't know why it affects me like that, but it just does. I do fine without it anyway.

 

[Drum&Bass]

Master Bates you probably have a weak immune system. Fish oil suppresses the inflammation response in your system, which means it reduces the effectiveness of your bodies natural defense mechanism. Its not logical to take in excess amounts, 2 a day is a good enough to obtain all of the benefits.

I usually take a little bit more but I have a titanium immune system and I eat other foods with fatty acids to balance out my intake.

10 grams / day is a good starting point. I went to 20 grams / day for a week but I had the shizzles so I backed down to 15.

For what reason would someone have to start 10 grams of fish oil a day ???? are you aware of the serious harmful effects of taking in that amount of oil daily has on a person.

You don't need all that fish oil...its a SUPPLEMENT !!! not something you take in excess. A person doesn't even need to take fish oil supps at all. You can get it through eating fish aka FOOD. If your diet is not right all the fish oil in the world isn't gonna save your heart or your joints. Once your diet is good, you won't need fish oil at all, but it can be used as a little extra to help you out (in moderation).

 

[Master Bates]

I've always had a really good immune system, and barely ever get sick. Somehow I doubt that's it.

 

[Drum&Bass]

thats fine if you've always had a good immune system but taking in a lot of fish oil reduces how effective it is. I don't wanna say weaken, but its pretty much the same effect. Lots of fish oil has the same effect of weakening the immune system.

 

[Quagmire911]

Fish oil is not a supplement.

As for taking in 10g a day, if you saw my post you would see Poliquin recommends 30-45g-and that is for everyone.

And where is the evidence to back up your claim that it weakens the immune system? Maybe if you were taking a bad brand that was laden with mercury and other heavy metals.

I am sorry, but no one on this board will convince me that Charles Poliquin is wrong. The man has trained people at the top level and knows more on this stuff than everyone on this board combined.

Good day.

 

[Drum&Bass]

As for taking in 10g a day, if you saw my post you would see Poliquin recommends 30-45g-and that is for everyone.

Why would I care how much fish oil poliquin recommends?? what benefits will I get from taking that amount ??

And where is the evidence to back up your claim that it weakens the immune system?

Your either to stupid to do your own research or to lazy to think for yourself, other than whats posted on t-nation. The evidence is there if you put 2 and 2 together.

I am sorry, but no one on this board will convince me that Charles Poliquin is wrong. The man has trained people at the top level and knows more on this stuff than everyone on this board combined.

so what ?? I think for myself and anything I preach I practice. I NEVER do anything or advocate anything based on what anyone says. I've tried that 30 grams of fish oil daily for about 3 months and noticed no performance change, but I did end up spending alot of money for nothing and taking slightly acidic diarrhea dumps.

your a sheep quagmire, all you can do is follow whats on t-nation at best, but you (and a majority of others) lack the ability to actually think and understand the reason behind anything.

I am sorry, but no one on this board will convince me that Charles Poliquin is wrong.

don't apologize to me, feel sorry for yourself that your such a tool.

 

[Omen]

Fish oil is not a supplement.

As for taking in 10g a day, if you saw my post you would see Poliquin recommends 30-45g-and that is for everyone.

And where is the evidence to back up your claim that it weakens the immune system? Maybe if you were taking a bad brand that was laden with mercury and other heavy metals.

I am sorry, but no one on this board will convince me that Charles Poliquin is wrong. The man has trained people at the top level and knows more on this stuff than everyone on this board combined.

Good day.

The problem with this again, is that before you even posted your post on the fish oil, I specifically talked about Poliquin. Then comes the post about the 30-45g of fish oil.

So my question to you, is where is HIS evidence to back up 30-45g? NONE. The ONLY reading you'll do on that much is ONLY from him, or on possibly T-Nation.

Training people is different than the supplement industry. It's like saying Any CPT out there is an expert in the supplement industry. While I believe Charles Poliquin knows quite a bit, some of it I believe he just makes up just cause he can.

What it equates too, is that when someone with some pull in some aspect of this area (for him its training) suggests you take that much, people go ahead and do it.

This is the wrong way to do things.

When I mentioned the information he stated on Antioxidants, and the darker the fruit the more antioxidants, this is NOT totally true, and he was wrong to say this.

Now since I know better and study many, many of these things, I knew he was wrong. If I was the average person reading his stuff I would have believed it.

So saying he knows more on this stuff than everyone combined.... I think you should rethink part of that statement.

All I am saying, is you cant say that just because poliquin said so, that it is the way to go. I dont care WHO he trained. I'm not a world renowned trainer, but I sure corrected him on his antioxidant information on here, and if he was the know it all over everyone on here, I wouldn't have had to mention that was a HUGE error he made when writing about that stuff. Not small error, but HUGE.

In ORAC terms, he is wrong. But not only that, just because a fruit is darker DOES NOT mean it is always better than the next fruit out there. Each fruit as i've explained months ago is unique in its own way, and what it contains nutrient wise. There are lighter fruits that have what blueberries dont have. So if he was to say... Well, the blueberry is the best, that would be an incorrect statement. In fact his real words were...

"Basically, the darker and richer the color of the food, the healthier it is."

NOT TRUE!

Thank goodness I know when to NOT listen to what he has to say, or i'd be full of wrong information


Again, i'm not bashing the guy, all i'm saying is ONE guy says to take 30-45g of fish oil.

 

[Quagmire911]

Andrew Gaeddaert, Dr. Di Pasquale...

 

[BMX]

I'm gonna have to side with OMEN on these matters. I wouldn't pop 30-45 fish oil tabs per day on top of other supps, like WBA was saying 24-30 liver tabs a day as well, and all the other stuff....For one, taking 30-45 fish oil tabs a day would be very costly as with all the other supps taken in excess that are more than likely excreted and therefore wasted (like your money).

I'm gonna also side with my former lab professor who said that most of what bodybuilders say and do is just plain bad. Not only do their muscles get outrageously huge, but they expand the size of their organs as well, thus leading to more complications. I'm NOT refuting the benefits of fish oil but I will not take absurd amounts of supplements that will kill the intended purpose of helping out with your diet and training. If I want to get a ton of omega-3s in those amounts, I will consume fish too.

 

[Quagmire911]

30-45 grams is only 2-3 tablespoons, which isn't a lot. Fair enough it might be costly to take in that amount but getting in 10-20 isn't too bad. I would agree that the average person won't require that much for some health benefits.

As for liver tablets I take around 18 or so a day with no problems at all. It is just the equivalent to beef...

 

[JohnnyIrish]

Aside from that, you have to look at the SOURCE of the fish oil. People's main reason for fish oil is the content of EPA/DHA. Not every fish is the same, so saying I take 10g of fish oil means absolutely nothing in regards to the amount of EPA/DHA

I bought it from trueprotein. I bought this.

I opened it in Dec and stopped for various reasons. In any event I'm going back on it. I don't think its bad.. I took some today (5pills with breakfast and 5 right after my after lunch snack).

Yeah I see the recommendation varies exactly how much one should take.. I'll try 10g of my trueprotein brand for this week and make sure it at the least doesn't bother my system (ok, I ate something that bothered me for over a week back in the beginning of Jan and it could be fish oil.. but I honestly think it was the sweetener in the casin protein I was using). If this dosage is ok then I'll consider how/if I should modify it (I've had along day so I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet.. but I will when I'm not so tired.)

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone.

 

[Throttle]

the real relevant number is not the total grams of fish oil consumed but rather the ratio of omega-6 : omega-3 in the diet (the benefits cited by poliquin above are typically correlated w/ omega 6 : 3 ratios, not the total amount of omega-3 consumed). pre-20th century human diets had ratios anywhere from 5:1 to 1:1 (or even 1:2 and beyond in the case of humans fully dependent on marine food sources).

modern American diets feature an estimated ratio of 10:1 up to 20:1 and beyond.

IF you are willing to do the math, you can figure out how much omega-6 you are getting, and cut back on many sources of it. this will let you bring the ratio down to 2:1 or 1:1 w/o slurping down fish oil by the tablespoon daily.

but 2 capsules of fish oil a day isn't going to do it for someone eating 2500-4000 calories, b/c modern industrial agriculture, so dependent on corn & soybeans, and modern industrial food processing & distribution, which thrives on products with long shelf life, have literally sucked the omega-3s out of everything. you can either change the food you eat & the way you buy it, or be prepared to supplement with a significant amount of fish oil each day.

 

[Road Demon]

Master Bates you probably have a weak immune system. Fish oil suppresses the inflammation response in your system, which means it reduces the effectiveness of your bodies natural defense mechanism. Its not logical to take in excess amounts, 2 a day is a good enough to obtain all of the benefits.

I usually take a little bit more but I have a titanium immune system and I eat other foods with fatty acids to balance out my intake.


For what reason would someone have to start 10 grams of fish oil a day ???? are you aware of the serious harmful effects of taking in that amount of oil daily has on a person.

You don't need all that fish oil...its a SUPPLEMENT !!! not something you take in excess. A person doesn't even need to take fish oil supps at all. You can get it through eating fish aka FOOD. If your diet is not right all the fish oil in the world isn't gonna save your heart or your joints. Once your diet is good, you won't need fish oil at all, but it can be used as a little extra to help you out (in moderation).

[Drum&Bass]Fish oil suppresses the inflammation response in your system, which means it reduces the effectiveness of your bodies natural defense mechanism.

You have NOT a clue what you are talking about. This is the third time I have noticed Drum and Bass post incorrect information in the heath and fitness forum, Drum and Bass your oversimplification of complex process is WRONG.

[Drum&Bass]For what reason would someone have to start 10 grams of fish oil a day ???? are you aware of the serious harmful effects of taking in that amount of oil daily has on a person.


10 grams at 30-50% fish oil concentrate is 3-5 grams of ACTIVE omega3s DHA and EPA combined. This dose is the standard dosage that is used in most peer reviewed research studies. I take 3-4 grams per day of EPA/DHA combined

Please don't provide any further information about Fish Oil. Thank You.

All other viewing this post please refer to Omen's excellent, comprehensive Post and Throttle's short but very informative Post.

 

[Drum&Bass]

You have NOT a clue what you are talking about. This is the third time I have noticed Drum and Bass post incorrect information in the heath and fitness forum, your oversimplification of complex process is WRONG.

if your gonna be a dick about it at least find some information that proves me wrong, what were the other 2 times I was wrong ?? Why do you think my information is incorrect ?? what did you read that disproves what I said ??

Please don't provide any further information about Fish Oil. Thank You.

:moon: <~~~ please kiss this road demon