Quagmire911 Lifting Journal

[Drum&Bass]

no problem dude !! I hurt my neck twice deadlifting, until I corrected where to look. I noticed your getting stronger and putting up more weight, so I was just looking out for you, making sure you don't make the mistakes I did ! keep up the progress.

 

[chinwaggler]

erm looking at your vids it looks like it's your back or your forearms for the sumo deadlift.

 

[Quagmire911]

erm looking at your vids it looks like it's your back or your forearms for the sumo deadlift.

The main issue with the sumo (and indeed conventional) was that I wasn't in the correct starting position with the scapula's over the bar. This is why my hips "jerk" up at the start, so my body can get into the proper position to pull.

As far as weak points are concerned I can't be sure what they are until I actually start deadlifting with proper form again in training (form is only being fixed as this is written). I don't know how long this has been happening, most likely quite some time as I haven't hit a deadlift PR in months. And on the weakness note, it definitely isn't my forearms, they are good for 180kg+...

 

[Quagmire911]

Thursday

I was originally goint to cut intensity, but I felt pretty good so I just cut the volume down. Had a pretty good day, details below:

Deadlift-155kgx1 165kgx1 (363lbs)(PR?)-F*** yes. Failed with 160kg last week. Just shows what incorrect form does to you. Video below. I think I nearly had it form wise this week, but my hips were still a little low as they come down a bit when I look in the mirror before I start and then come up as I iniatiate the lift. So my scapula's weren't in the correct position and the the bar rolls forward a touch. I am sure I did this the other day, so I will makesure not to next time. This may net me another 5-10lbs when I cut this out. I think this may be a conventional PR. If I remember correctley I have done 165kg twice before and 172.5kg once, all sumo. It will be interesting when I next sumo to see what happens, as I know it relies more heavily on a good starting position, and I would think it should be better as it would put my back in a better position to pull (more vertical). Pretty pleased with this anyway. With form getting fixed, it should hopefully only be a matter of time before I get 400lbs+. I just need to make the above weight my 3RM. I think it is safe to say the floor is my weakness, but I need to get a perfect pull before I confirm it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LudNxqpFHjg

Good mornings 62.5kgx12-Getting this up should drive up my deadlift. Spinal erectors need to be strong as my back is pretty close to horizontal when I deadlift.

Dorian rows 85kgx8-These felt pretty good. Not sure if I am not upright enough or not though. Will take videos next time.

Leg press 160kgx8-Did these for the quads as I didn't feel they had been given enough attention.

Captains of crush No.2 R-1x3 L-1x0 No.1 (inverted) R-1x4 L 1x4-Don't think I got a great hold on it with my right hand which is why these are equal.

Door grabx1

Well that was all for today. Really pleased with the deadlift, big difference from last week. I may do some halting deadlifts which is where you lift from the floor to just below the knee I believe. I will check this. Will be making a few changes to the routine to suit my weaknesses. Anyway that is all for today, until next time...

Quagmire

EDIT-Checked the record book and my best deads to date have been 155kgx4 (I remembeer it was crappy form on the last two reps, lost my arch), and 160kgx2. So this is the most weight I have pulled conventional.

 

[mrRuckus]

You should try some power cleans.

 

[I-tallionStallion]

F#CK YEAH! Nice DL!

Form looked GOOd but man that looked like a tough rep haha

Hey, I'm getting closer to crushing the No.2. But you are still ahead of me, maybe you should change your name to this guy's - http://www.wrestling101.com/101/imageview.php?image=833

That is until I overcome you haha

 

[Quagmire911]

MrRuckus: Power cleans are another option I will have to consider. I believe it was Bill Starr who was fond of them for his deadlift.

Stallion: Thanks man. But I am sorry, gripping is my baby . I didn't think it was going to come off the floor but somehow it did.

 

[MrS]

You lift with all back on your deadlift.
You'll stop progressing at some point soon.
Learn to deadlift properly.
Which is to lift backwards, not up.
Start the lift from the ground with a squat then bring your hips forward and legs straighten pushing into the ground, while bringing the bar backwards.

 

[Quagmire911]

You lift with all back on your deadlift.
You'll stop progressing at some point soon.
Learn to deadlift properly.
Which is to lift backwards, not up.
Start the lift from the ground with a squat then bring your hips forward and legs straighten pushing into the ground, while bringing the bar backwards.

:nono:

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=147274

 

[MrS]

Don't wag your finger at me, Dave Tate > ****ing Crossfit for deadlifting my friend.
Rippetoe is excellent, but if you notice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqxim0YXr90
What he's saying here and how she deadlifts, and what you're doing is not the same. You will plateau indefinitely. Your form is pretty crap, mate.
This isn't a flame post, you're putting up decent enough numbers!
Constructive criticism. Your deadlift is all back, your hips are too high, your legs are nearly straight, and you have no leg drive. Mine used to be nearly as bad but I changed it and it's a completely different lift.

 

[Drum&Bass]

MrS, Pulling back makes no sense, the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

You statement about plateauing is false !! All world class powerlifters use their back when deadlifting, what Dave Draper does for deadlifting might work for dave draper (body building purposes) but in the grand scheme of things it is NOT optimal, pulling back is an outdated technique. LEG DRIVE FOR A DEADLIFT IS USELESS !!! it is not a squat !!!!

You should lift with your back, and drive in with your hips.

by the way MrS how much weight are you able to pull how can you speak so confidently ?

 

[I-tallionStallion]

You will plateau indefinitely.

I don't agree with this statement. I can't how many times I've watched guys with really $hitty form picking up tons of weight on youtube and at my gym. And Quags form is decent.

Hey Quag, check out this dude DLing...fvcking beast - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KDnaHCOQ0

He has a squat video where he tears his quads, watch it...it will make you never want to squat ever again lol

 

[Quagmire911]

I trust Rippetoe over Tate for deadlift specifics.

The reason I don't deadlift the way she does is because I am built differently. When I have my scapula's over the bar my back is quite near to horizontal, which will naturally make the back more involved.

I was actually trying to do it the way you said, lowering the hips and using my legs. I haven't hit a PR in months. I posted my form for Rippetoe to look at and he said I had to raise my hips:

http://strengthmill.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1898

I appreciate your concern, but I am a back puller. I know it isn't perfect yet, I say this above. It is a work in progress. Remember as well that that was a max attempt which will bring out weaknesses, and I look to be weak from the floor.

Ps-This is my last post today, post limit has been reached.

And Stallion, I am a big fan of Matt K. I have seen that video and his squat one before. I believe he has recovered now. You should check out his DB row videos if you haven't already, they are great.

 

[MrS]

You trust Rippetoe over Tate?
How much has Westside Barbell pulled over the years and what has Rippetoe?
Yeah I thought so.
If you're a fan of Kroc, deadlift like he does. He drops his ass down, and oh look, leg drive!

Being a back puller isn't cool. If you really want to progress and lift some serious weight, then you will learn how to apply proper leg drive. Lifting with your back will get you so far, and then you will stop progressing and wonder why and work your lower back like crazy and stop getting gains.

To ItallianStallion - they are genetically disposed to be able to lift weight from the ground, it's that simple. If they try to progress, they too will get to a certain point.

And Drum&Bass - your replies to other threads concerning squats and deadlifts doesn't show ANY real-life knowledge, it sounds as though you haven't trained with what you're talking about, you posted high numbers and said a load, like you said you did 20 x 365 on squats, then said they're parallel, above parallel. So they're not proper squats. Jesse Marunde did 20x400 in his day. You say you deadlift 420. Well done, solid lift. But don't advocate bad form to this guy, especially as a personal trainer. How long have you been training?

To Quagmire, I used to deadlift the same. I then changed and started deadlifting correctly. Numbers dropped, but the potential weight I can lift now is oh so much more.

The way you lift you put no hips, or legs, into it, it's all lower back and some hamstrings/glutes. You're just limiting yourself.

It's no shame to work on proper form and let the numbers slide for a while.

EDIT: Just saw your post to Rippetoe.
He's saying what I mean. You are BEHIND the bar. You're setting yourself up to lift the bar with your back upwards in a straight line, you're not supposed to do that. You're not balancing all that weight on your lower back "keeping the back angle constant". You're lifting it with your legs and your hips and your lower back stays the same, he means don't round it. You took it too literally.

 

[Drum&Bass]

MrS I have no clue what your trying to say, but if you agree with the way Rippetoe teaches deadlifting and Quagmire agrees with the way Rippetoe teaches and I agree with the way Rippetoe teaches deadlifting what are you getting so bent out of shape about ??

p.s. for your information Powerlifting squats are to parallel and ARE INDEED proper squats.

Other names for a powerlifting squat is a sumo squat or a wide stance squat and you want to know what they all have in common ??? It is impossible to go as deep as a regular barbell back squat also known as an olympic squat, do you know why ??? Because your hamstrings make it impossible do go deep when your legs are in a wide stance. Hope this clears up any confusion.

p.p.s whose advocating bad advice ?? Your the one unable to communicate your point properly

 

[MrS]

I communicated exactly what I wanted to say.

What you're saying about "sumo squats" is a cop-out.
You are advocating back lifting with the deadlifting, that it's not a squat, not to use the legs.

Anyway, do what you will, I tried and failed to improve the fellow's training.

I getting bent our of shape because you are not doing what Rippetoe says.
If you post that video for him, he will also agree that your lift is pretty bad.

That is all.

 

[Quagmire911]

Hmmm. I think you may have a point MrS...

With the 150kg last week I thought I was stiff legging it. That is when I posted the video to Rippetoe, as you can see I say that to him. He said that I wasn't in the correct starting position, which I also wasn't-which made things worse.

You are right though, after looking at it in depth and comparing it with lifts at 100kg, I am losing leg drive at the higher weight. If you look at this video, I think you will find it on the money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wfLGWfIJVw&feature=user

I actually have a selection of videos ranging up to 165kg now, and it becomes more pronounced after 140kg. Because that was a max effort it is more noticeable. I tried to reason with myself that it wasn't happening because of what Rippetoe said, but it is.

Now lets clear something up. The deadlift isn't a squat, however the legs are involved to a large extent.

Now to examine why this is happening. The glutes and hamstrings anchor the hips down at the start of the deadlift as the quads extend the knees. It seems to me that my glutes and hamstrings aren't holding my hips down-thus the stiff legging. It may not be a strength issue per se, maybe just lack of glute activation. So I will start with some of that. I am still sure my hammies are a weaklink, and the gm's are tasked with that one.

I may perform deads from a deficit as a max effort lift as well. I am interested MrS, what did you do to correct this happening to you?

And thank you for being stubborn Although I agree with Drum, pulling in a straight line-not back.

 

[MrS]

Glad to see you're not too proud to take some constructive criticism, nice one mate!

The thing with the deadlift is, to do it properly and involve as much major musculature as possible, you have to do with to involve as much legs, hamstrings, glutes, lower and upper back, lats as possible. This means more weight, which means more strength.
You're limiting yourself but not involving the quads nearly at all, without talking about the rest.

What you have to do is, when you get down to deadlift, imagine the lift starts as a squat, try and squat the weight up from the floor, when it moves about an inch, i.e it STARTS moving, start to pull it back and bring your hips forward and continue to drive your legs into the ground.

You might not even be able to do 120kg like this, which is a blow to your ego I know, but it will be worth it.

If you have trouble getting the deadlift starting from the floor, like me, then deficit deadlift is a good max effort exercise. Box squats with your legs in the same position as which you start your deadlift. If you find that locking the weight out, work on rack pulls or tie your bar up with bands, makes the lockout harder and therefore stronger.

Some people are stronger from the starting position, others are stronger at mid-to-lockout position, like me. My upper back strength and my lockout strength in my quads is very good, but my starting-from-dead strength still leaves something be desired.

Persevere with learning this proper deadlift form and your numbers will go through the roof.

Last thing - if you try and imagine pulling the bar upwards in a straight line you will fail. You must imagine pulling the bar backwards, it must run up your shins, knees, thighs. If you try and pull it straight up, you will still try and do it like you used to, i.e all back. I used to do this - you have to imagine it going backwards. It makes the hip movement more important, they don't just get into place, you drive forward with the hips. If you imagine pulling it up in a straight line, you will subconsciously let it all hang on your lower back since it won't be in line with your body's mechanics. Imagine this - you have something heavy to pick up. Wouldn't you find it easier if this thing was as close to you as possible, even between your legs, rather than a few steps away? Don't you get better leverage in the first case?

The lower your start your hips, the more quad based it becomes. The high, the more glutes/hamstrings/lower back.

 

[Quagmire911]

I do understand what you are saying. I am sure you can see though that different people will start the lift with their hips lower/higher depending on their limbs/torso.

In the 165kg above I am in the right position before the start, and then the hips come up and I stiff leg it. I will try some glute activation and see how I get on. The glutes and hamstrings anchor the hips down at the start of the lift, so one or both aren't doing their job. I am pretty sure my glutes aren't firing though, I have no hip drive on the squat.

I also see what you are saying about "pulling back". When Rippetoe brought this up with Tate, he said that this was a coaching cue or something-probably because of what you are saying. On all the elitefts/westisde stuff on the deadlift, they don't actually say "shoulders behind the bar at the start of the lift". I think this is where the confusion came from. The shoulders do come behind the bar eventually though. However, at the start the scapulas are above the bar no matter what. And yes, the bar should be as close to you as possible.

Thank you for your input.

 

[MrS]

I do understand what you are saying. I am sure you can see though that different people will start the lift with their hips lower/higher depending on their limbs/torso.

In the 165kg above I am in the right position before the start, and then the hips come up and I stiff leg it. I will try some glute activation and see how I get on. The glutes and hamstrings anchor the hips down at the start of the lift, so one or both aren't doing their job. I am pretty sure my glutes aren't firing though, I have no hip drive on the squat.

I also see what you are saying about "pulling back". When Rippetoe brought this up with Tate, he said that this was a coaching cue or something-probably because of what you are saying. On all the elitefts/westisde stuff on the deadlift, they don't actually say "shoulders behind the bar at the start of the lift". I think this is where the confusion came from. The shoulders do come behind the bar eventually though. However, at the start the scapulas are above the bar no matter what. And yes, the bar should be as close to you as possible.

Thank you for your input.

I'm afraid thats wrong.
You don't activate your glutes and all that ****, you can spread the floor with the squat, but with the deadlift it's a matter of driving your feet into the ground and pushing your ass forward, no tricks to get more hip drive or glute strength.

Again, hip drive with the squat - just have in mind to push your hips forward, don't keep yourself tight and move with only your legs. Imagine a good morning, moving your ass forward and back. The ideal squat is like that nearly.

You said your problem - you start ok but you just stiff leg it as soon as you start. Be disciplined, keep yourself low and start with a squat in mind, as soon as it moves push your hips forward and push "down" with your heels.