PUA vs. Don Juan

[aBAzLLnA]

I really hope those who are learning from this forum do not end up as PUA's. Sound a little strange? It shouldn't. There's a clear distinction between a PUA and a DJ, and the distinction is very subtle, it lies in the way each one sees the game.

I believe that the danger of even becoming a Don Juan is the added knowledge of how women work. That is to say, you only become Don Juan once you truly grasp how the female mind works. As is said, "ignorance is bliss" and once you know more than you should know many things may happen. The problem with understanding is that sometimes knowing more than you should removes the romance or mystery about it all. That is where PUA and DJ diverge.

The PUA sees the game as a science, and works the field like a job. He has the right techniques and lines down to get what he wants, attraction is a science and once he sees a HB a switch turns on in his mind and he regurgitates his game.

The DJ on the other hand, I believe, sees attraction as a mysterious phenomenon that can never be turned into a science, but can only be understood. The DJ has appreciates the game and only sees it as ONE facet of life and not the priority of his time.

This is just a thought I had tonight, as I haven't been to the boards for a while. I'm in a year long LTR LDR, and we're still going strong. For those who do believe in love, it is interesting to see what love can do to your game. I haven't sarged or even tried to pick up a female in months, yet my understanding of how they work has flown.

Cheers!

 

[Fash]

mmmm I'm not too sure.

It almost sounds like you are saying that PUA's dont have emotions or feelings where as Don Juans do.

To be honest, I really dont see any difference between the two because no matter which one you are, your goal is to improve your self and pick up women of value. One of those women of value then turns into an LTR.

 

[Tomatoes]

mmmm I'm not too sure.

It almost sounds like you are saying that PUA's dont have emotions or feelings where as Don Juans do.

To be honest, I really dont see any difference between the two because no matter which one you are, your goal is to improve your self and pick up women of value. One of those women of value then turns into an LTR.

I have to agreewith fash. Maybe you have been with one girl too long. Its affecting your mind

I think they are both the same. I also agree to have the same "aim" as Fash. That is I am just looking for a girl worthy of a LTR and going to have some fun while i look.

 

[everywomanshero]

Wel

A lot of PUAs recommend having a life outside of pickup. Mystery advocates maintaining Health, Wealth, and Love. Louis and Copeland have long been advocates of having a life outside of women. If you listen to David D's Interviews with Dating Gurus, a reoccuring theme is to have interests outside of women (Greg, Brent, cannot remember specifics).

I know guys who really are "just trying to become PUAs". They are obsessed with it. They are dead serious when they go out. They have an agenda, "I HAVE to stay in set foir 10 minutes" or " I HAVE TO get 12 sets tonight!". I've never seen one of these guys pull a girl. I'm dead serious, I've never, ever seen one of them pull, ever. When I go out with them, I've pulled only occasionally. These guys are in such a crappy state to pickup it ruins my chances of success as well. These guys are not PUAs.

Most of them aren't any good at picking up women at all. They are either just kids who spit out crap at random or old geezers who never got over approach anxiety. The old geezers will always talk about how they know XYZ PUA, because they saw him out somewhere. They will try to make it sound like they are friends. When you ask them why they aren't approaching, it becomes obvious they are getting drunk first.

In fact, almost any new hobby or sport takes 1-3 years to get good at with regular practice. For sarging, that would mean going out 3-4 nights a week and opening girls without pressuring yourself. I laugh my ass off when some guy says, "I tried to become a PUA for 6 months and it didn't work!". That's a sure sign the guy needs more life experience, because that isn't enough time to get good at *anything*. Imagine trying to become an NBA star in 6 months, getting an MBA in 6 months, or going from a 700lb guy who can't walk to an olympic athlete in just 6 months. Most guys aren't going to be any good at all in 6 months, they may even get worse at first.

I'm not claiming to be the grand master either, but we should understand 99.999999999999999% of people claiming to be PUAs don't know the first thing about picking up women. You should not judge PUAs by these people, that is like judging musicians by some drunk who whistles into a bottle. There is just things that work a high percentage of the time, and things that work a low percentage of the time. The state you are in the main determinate of success.

The trouble with the DJ forum is the level of KBJing. At least with the PUA community you can verify if these guys can PU or not. At the DJ forum, guys who know they are terrible with women hide behind excuses like, "YOu can't see me in action because it's so zen as to be imperceptable to the common man". This is BS and it reminds me of the karate instructor whose techniques are "too deadly" to be demonstrated. Most of us grapplers and boxers already knew it was BS, and once UFC was popular there dojos started shrinking. The cat was out of the bag. I like this forum and there is a lot of good advice here, it helped me save a couple of faultering relationships by being a man. It is also much easier to digest than say mASF which I cannot be bothered to read. However, some of these guys are saying things that I've never heard anyone who I know is successful with women say.

 

[aBAzLLnA]

All good points, and maybe the distinction between PUA and DJ is irrelevant. Now that I think about it, I want to stress the point that once you automize something like picking up a woman, you start to lose the fun of it all. I think back and I believe the best part of a relationship is what happens before the relationship even begins! The chase. Those of you who have been through relationships may agree, that's the time where there's the most mystery and as Albert Einstein says, "The most beautiful thing we can ever experience is the myserious..."

I guess I'm generalizing when I say that PUA's have that as a priority in life, but anyone who does such a thing and who pressures themselves into getting phone numbers in my mind is neither a PUA or a DJ. The whole act of chasing a woman or having them chase you , is supposed to be fun.

 

[everywomanshero]

I guess I'm generalizing when I say that PUA's have that as a priority in life, but anyone who does such a thing and who pressures themselves into getting phone numbers in my mind is neither a PUA or a DJ. The whole act of chasing a woman or having them chase you , is supposed to be fun.

You've got it! It is supposed to be fun. Furthermore, if it's not fun you will never have a chance in hell at being good at it! None, zilch, not a single one of the guys who I've seen in action could pickup when they weren't there just to have fun and let go of outcomes. Women can smell this "too serious" frame a mile away. It drives them away like no other.

Your post is very good, because unless guys realize this they will drive away any worthy wing who might be able to help them. No one is going to wing with these guys who bring down their state, and these guys are totally clueless why nothing they try works. Usuaully the blame the techniques or try to micromanage body language or something besides fixing the main problem: their state of mind.

 

[resilient]

I'll use PUA tactics (via Mystery, Juggler, or David D) to approach and attract a girl, #close, do a day1 and day2... but once the relationship gets rolling Don Juan is behind the wheel 100% and ready to bounce if she starts becoming domimatrix and making it her mission to convert me to AFC. I've always found in my past relationships when I buckled, feel in love or handed over my power as Mr.NiceGuy; the game came quickly to a coup de grâce (LJBFd').

So maintening a challenge, mystery, banter always has to be there whether PUA or DJ if you want to keep an insecure woman attracted (almost all woman out there). Both sides have their advantages. I chose to borrow power from both, now that their abilities are under my belt to use at my leisure. Just avoid being boring at all cost and don't get comfortable in the relationship, because for women, the grass is always greener on the other side. They always want what they can't have and never truly happy with what they have, so they'll typically grab the branch of an alpha if you slipped up and succumbed to the lonely side of AFC.

I'd also agree that once you are more knowledgable of the #s game, the fun chase can begin to lose its sparkle it held when we were younger and more naive of the courting process. I am however cultivating my PUA(social skills) game so that at the advent my woman leaves me I could go out sarge and not be depressed in my room for 6 months with no friends, eating dorritos, playing HALO online round the clock, and downloading coupius amounts of lesbian porn. OT - but... Oneitis has to be one of the hardest diseases a man has to go through in life especially if you don't have many friends to pick you back up off your feet.

To Discuss Further:
Maybe some here may want to expand on the +/- of both sides. Would you say that PUA could best suited for STRs whereas DJ is best suited for LTRs?

Bottom line: For me, I use DJ for inner game, then PUA for outer game.

 

[ScrewIt]

You've got it! It is supposed to be fun. Furthermore, if it's not fun you will never have a chance in hell at being good at it! None, zilch, not a single one of the guys who I've seen in action could pickup when they weren't there just to have fun and let go of outcomes. Women can smell this "too serious" frame a mile away. It drives them away like no other.

Your post is very good, because unless guys realize this they will drive away any worthy wing who might be able to help them. No one is going to wing with these guys who bring down their state, and these guys are totally clueless why nothing they try works. Usuaully the blame the techniques or try to micromanage body language or something besides fixing the main problem: their state of mind.

by all means, dating/chasing or being chased/games are supposed to be fun.
With all this comes the good and the bad, such as rejection.
if you put your ego on hte line and take rejection personally, then this isnt for you. Rejection CAN be fun as long as you can stand back up and go about your regular business without it affecting your confidence/self esteem.

 

[nishbuk]

Personally I think that at the highest level, the best "man" so to speak is a combination of both PUA and DJ. When I came into the community, I was damn glad that I found Sosuave first.

The strength of sosuave is that it paints a very clear picture of developing "Men". That is, developing core beliefs, and a core identity. It is the best place on the internet to find activities and ideals to develop a solid, inner game. It's strength is that it makes "picking up girls" about more than just the action of picking up women. It becomes about a Man's lifestyle, his goals, dreams, ambitions, his stories, his core values, his integrity, and his life path.

However, that being said, Sosuave doesn't really give you any concrete tools to use when you go out into the field. I remember when I first started with this stuff, I would go out into the field feelin all reved up to go, my single life was in order, and I was excited to approach girls after reading some posts in the bible.

Then when I got to a girl, I would think something like, "Okay. YEAH! Let's go!...Uhh...What do I say? And I would find myself being very direct with a girl (which is a good thing), and just exuding plain confidence. However, the conversations usually died down pretty quickly, because I wasn't a proficient conversationalist.

Then, I found the PUA community, and I realized I had hit the missing link. The PUA community used to focus mainly on techniques, tricks, verbal patterns, gimmicks, and methodologies to pick up women. And with my newfound confidence, and self-worth, that's exactly what I needed. Now, I'm learning how to use events and storied from my own life, core values from my own mindset, and little games that I find fun to generate my own scripts, and my own routines that are original.

Eventually I will master this art form. And I think that when that does happen, it'll be because of all of the things I've learned both on sosuave and in the PUA community.

The thing is, that people view PUAs as social robots. And in the lower ranks of PUAs, that's pretty accurate. It's one of the reasons why I was so turned off by the PUA community to begin with. But if you converse with the PUGs and mPUAs, you realize that those guys embody all the characteristics of the PUAs and all the characterisitics of the DJs. They are usually the complete package. The few PUAs that come to mind when I think of real confident, driven, and self-loving man are Style, Zan, and Juggler. I think that these guys are all emotionally healthy enough, and secure enough, that they are genuinely happy with who they are. I believe that alot of PUAs don't embody that.

That's why that I think that the best Womanizers in the world are a solid combo of PUA and DJ. It's true that you can only use and learn some of it to have some moderate success with women, but if you want to be truly happy with and without women, you need a piece of it all to make it work for your own personal happiness, DJ+PUA.

 

[aBAzLLnA]

resilient

Well, the main difference between a PUA and a DJ is the mindset (if you really want to pick apart the difference between the two). You'd have to examine how you go into an approach and the tactics you use. I believe that the DJ goes into an approach using personality as a tool, and the PUA uses techniques that are tried and true which get to the females subconcious/concious mind.

But it is true that a DJ has more inner game than a PUA, who uses much more outer game (eg. peacocking, NLP).

everywomanshero

That is the main reason why I look down upon PUA's, they try to make attraction a science. Not only does it mechanize attraction, it also ruins the romance behind it, as I've said before. There's no heart behind a PUA, I may be wrong, but a PUA with heart is a DJ.

 

[Distant Light]

This is what I think.

DJ - Based most his game off of Inner game, only outer game they actually learn is C&F and Kino. Its kinda like a mixture of Direct (shark and Badboy) and Indirect, because most DJ aren't going to be using NLP, patterns, and gimmicks,etc. Its self improvement to everyday life, as if "You become a DJ and the girls shall follow". I kinda consider this as a wannabe Direct method, minus the stuff that direct method teaches.


PUA - Is more like a guy who can use and change the social dynamics in his favor. They basically got all the Bodylanguage and non verbals to a T. They share all there outer game, (No its not the canned material that makes someone good its the element behind the canned material) There is a decent amount of inner game, but you would find more in DJ area or Direct area.

The verdict...

DJ - Would be for the guy who really doesn't want to be pulling girls and really just want this as a side thing, and not really into learning the social dynamics. For guys who just want to get out the AFC frame, almost kinda like trying to be a natural. (This is why alot of guys always calling it the numbers game.)

PUA - For guys who just want to learn the whole inside and outside of getting a girl, from Meeting all the way and Closing and even relationships. For guys who want to be those guys that just constatly Pick up women. I find this way takes more work since you must learn non verbals and verbals if you want to have tight game. Must say though they have the best tips on Sex that I've seen in the whole community.

What I prefer...

I prefer PUA for a number of reason:
- It is well structured so I know where I'm going
- There is so much Outer game that you shouldn't be fumbling on what you should do next and how else can you build attraction
- Its fun! Maybe first month or so is nerve racking but after awhile it becomes fun and you like to do knew stuff or try out something new.
- Canned material, you ever get bored you can try out peoples canned material, you ever seem to be stuck at kinoing do a escalation routine.
- Each element(I call each tool elements e.g. C&F, Kino, Chick crack, etc.) has a purpose and you can use when it is appropriate
- Its easier for newbies to follow because after they learn all that inner game now what are they going to do when infield? Are they going to go in and just be fumbling for words or just C&F and then find out she flakes. If you learn the elements and have a structure you can smoothly transiton and know where your going and headed. (For example girl if giving IOIs if you as a DJ don't know what IOIs are you may miss a chance but some IOIs you can just spot whether DJ or not. LMR is another thing I've read countless times of guys trying to sex there girl but can because of LMR and some DJs may just give up and end up not getting no sex.


This is why I prefer PUA it basically has the whole Social Dynamics to the T, some new stuff that I've been reading about (New to me) is Slow seduction which this guy is currently doing, he currently has like 8-10 girls in rotation. Then this other thing these guys teach which is like maps (Don't really know much about) Basically like a structure that leads to LTR, FB, ONS, MLTR, etc.

Some people are probably wondering since I know all this (Yes in PUA eyes I am a noob.) what have I been up too lately. I am currently in a little slump, moms found out about the sites and found out why I want to move out at 18, she doesn't want me going on a vacation with this girl after High school cause she knows whats going to happen (Scramble board game? ) Girl wants to know if I want a friend with benefits(sex), may have a fuvkbuddy in sat school and could probably fuvk this girl who had a bf for about 2 years. Thats enough cause it kinda sounds like I'm braggin, but just want guys to know this works you must look beyond the canned material and find out why the canned material works, what exactly is the purpose of it. DJ inner game has helpped me alot too, or else I wouldn't be moving around as Alpha as I do.

 

[Wonderbread166]

There is no such thing as Don Juan or Pick Up Artist...only people trying to make their lives better.

This argument is not even really one between two irrelevant terms, it's one between the ideologies of two forums. But DJ and PUA are both entirely subjective, and not even really worth considering.

I call myself a man.

 

[resilient]

I forgot to add that PUAs Have ONE Weakness......

 

[nishbuk]

Lol. That is funny I have to say.

People just need to realize that to be sucessful at anything you have to think for your goddamn self. "This" way, or "That" way, etc...none of it is going to matter if you are taking every word that some other person says as gospel. If you want to be effective at this, you need to keep what works, and throw out everything that doesn't work. Whether it be PUA, DJ, PLAYA, Womanizer, BBQ, WTF, STFU, or whatever. We are all here just to make our lives better, and to be better men. Develop your own style, and your own personality...then you won't be lying to anyone, cause everything you say will be a part of who you are. If you are just reciting lines that some dude told you to say, you're not improving. You're regressing.
All things in moderation.