Pennies for thoughts

[RedBeardless]

Guys,

I am looking for some help thinking through my LTR with the enlightened self-interest that comes with reading and groking TRM by Rollo and the SoSuave forums. The idea is to figure out whether to proceed toward marriage or start up the plate spinning machinery again.

Background. I am 38, relatively fit, 5'8, divorced in 2016 with a son who is now 8, and professionally 15 years into my career doing okay. She is 37, 8.5/10, petite but not athletic, 5'2, Indian FOB (Fresh Off Boat) 9 years ago, non-citizen on a work visa as an MD doing well.

I recently moved to be nearer to my son, who is struggling at home and at school. I have no custody. Proximity is the best I can do for now, so that's what I'll do.

The last 5 weekends I've spent with, let's call her, Zara. Hindu name for princess. Each weekend ends or is punctuated with some sort of fight. She wants some sort of compliance and I refuse to yield, which then angers her, then I need to be taught a lesson, and then it goes on until she cools down. After she cools down, she retells the story from her frame and it sounds like I am a cold-hearted bastard and she's being entirely reasonable. When I sift through the details I see little manipulations, annoyances, generally starting with her asking, then demanding compliance, and my increasing rigidity as I feel I am getting forced into something.

The fights are emotionally taxing. The result is weakness on my side: I overeat and stop working out and got the flu for the first time in 15 years this year (not COVID apparently). Cortisol is high. I lose my frame and myself. Need to stop that. So the last time it happened, I pointed out the track record. She said we should take a break. I agreed. So now we are on break. Still talking, but getting some breathing room. No sex though. It's okay, though. I'd rather be clear headed for the next steps anyway.

Zara is highly interested, I think. Or at least determined. She keeps coming to the table even when I push her away. Earlier I dated other women and she kept the plate spinning. So in that sense, she seems like good marriage material, I just can't seem to crack this nut of when we "try" to get things to work it's like she tries so hard she loses herself and then she gets upset at something insignificant (because of me) and the anger flares up into an anger orgasm and the cycle repeats.

Zara has zero other relationships in which this pattern of behavior occurs, which makes it difficult for her to navigate and difficult for me to relate to her what is going on from my perspective. She is observant. Psychologically aware.

So here I am, on break. Filling my time with working out, eating healthy, reading my backlog of interests (like finishing TRM). Do I re-engage? If so, what can I do differently to avoid the pitfalls of the past? Is it unreasonable to expect that it could be possible?

Or is this the longest **** test that has ever been squeezed out (2 years)?

-RedBeardless

 

[Lookatu]

Personally I don't understand people that stay in relationships where they are always arguing or fighting. There are a lot of other more compatible people out there. Why would you subject yourself to torture or anything less than you deserve?

Personally, I would eject and look for someone more compatible and willing to be compliant towards you. Not the other way around.

It sounds like she's been watching too much Bollywood movies and is delusional at best, especially considering she's FOB...

My $.02

 

[Bible_Belt]

breaks

thought i'd take a moment to share my views on 'breaks' when your woman says 'i think we should take a break', 99.9% of the time its end game. you see, what she has created a lose lose scenario for you. its a scenario that gives her ALL the power in the relationship moving forward...

www.sosuave.net

 

[RedBeardless]

Lookatu, good point. I am wondering what I might be doing wrong that is indicating that there is room for non-compliance.

Bible_Belt, interesting take. The break is really for me to get my head straight and behaviors back on track. It was a sort of tactical empathy that brought her to admit that a break would be good. As far as the golden rule goes, I need her less.

 

[King Lion]

 

[samspade]

Been through it, bro. It won't get better. It will likely get far, far worse.

In this case the fact that she has "high interest" means absolutely nothing. When there is a penchant for conflict, it becomes a neverending cycle of toxicity. Often it's followed by a cool down and some kind of baseline "normalcy" - except that YOUR normal will shift because hers is so fukked up. My toxic ex was so overwhelming that I found myself suing for peace just to get exactly that for a spell. I won't get into why I stuck it out longer than I should have - long story - but it wore me out to the point that breaking up with her seemed like the more tolling experience than just dealing with her. (Sounds fukking crazy, right?) I eventually rope-a-doped her into dumping me, lol. (That way she wouldn't stalk me. And even then...)

Anyway, point being, life's too short for constant fighting.

 

[BackInTheGame78]

No women who constantly tries to start petty fights and force you into her frame is marriage material. You think it's going to get better once "she has you"? It will get 100x worse. You are only seeing the tip of the iceberg right now.

This sounds alarmingly similar to what has happened to me a few times in the past. With me, they were trying to force me to dump her and I was not doing it so they were increasingly trying to stir up sh!t to push me harder. And of course no sex is another tell tale sign. They cut you off physically, withdraw emotionally and then do things they hope will force you to dump them. When you don't they lose more and more respect for you until they realize they will have to do it themself but by that point they have already dumped you in their mind for weeks or months.

 

[RedBeardless]

@samspade @BackInTheGame78 Thank you for sharing. Sounds similar. To add to the story, I was the one who withdrew sex as it was clouding my judgement. It was the incentive to lose my frame and play along.

@LARaiders85, what do you mean about culture?

I can see how dedicated (obligated) she is to her family. Sometimes I wonder that the IOIs that I think I see are actually another form of obligation of her family duties.

In TRM Rollo mentions true desire cannot be negotiated, like the obligated showings above. How can a guy tell the difference?

 

[KindredSpiritzz]

Personally I don't understand people that stay in relationships where they are always arguing or fighting. There are a lot of other more compatible people out there.

amen to that. I spent almost 10 yrs with a woman who argued about the dumbest things all the time. Those are years i wasted that i will never get back and it kills me the women i coulda had a shot with but passed on to stay with her.
You'll find if your patient theres more opportunities out there than you realize. I like the OPs analogy on " the plate spinning machinery" cause thats basically what it is. Takes awhile to get cranked up and spitting out women but once its humming life is good

 

[RedBeardless]

Maybe the vaccines will return the regular plate spinning activities back to normal by Spring. In the meanwhile, I fear OLD. I suppose that's really fodder for another thread.

I do find myself being pulled back to Zara emotionally. She's the only available spinner atm. Hmm... and the logistics of waging legal warfare to see my son, plate machinery, job 1, job 2, and selling job 3 contract work seems challenging. The financial stability and certainty of the known path is appealing. Hence the desire to wrap a bowtie of asserting healthy relationship boundaries and call it good enough and move on with life. But then, if I am wrong, I just end up doing this all later in life. There is no clear right answer.

 

[jimwho]

Nagging ragging yelling fighting. You'll probably have a heart attack.. Use the break as a window of escape.

 

[Seductions_Mad_Scientist]

Guys,

I am looking for some help thinking through my LTR with the enlightened self-interest that comes with reading and groking TRM by Rollo and the SoSuave forums. The idea is to figure out whether to proceed toward marriage or start up the plate spinning machinery again.

Background. I am 38, relatively fit, 5'8, divorced in 2016 with a son who is now 8, and professionally 15 years into my career doing okay. She is 37, 8.5/10, petite but not athletic, 5'2, Indian FOB (Fresh Off Boat) 9 years ago, non-citizen on a work visa as an MD doing well.

I recently moved to be nearer to my son, who is struggling at home and at school. I have no custody. Proximity is the best I can do for now, so that's what I'll do.

The last 5 weekends I've spent with, let's call her, Zara. Hindu name for princess. Each weekend ends or is punctuated with some sort of fight. She wants some sort of compliance and I refuse to yield, which then angers her, then I need to be taught a lesson, and then it goes on until she cools down. After she cools down, she retells the story from her frame and it sounds like I am a cold-hearted bastard and she's being entirely reasonable. When I sift through the details I see little manipulations, annoyances, generally starting with her asking, then demanding compliance, and my increasing rigidity as I feel I am getting forced into something.

The fights are emotionally taxing. The result is weakness on my side: I overeat and stop working out and got the flu for the first time in 15 years this year (not COVID apparently). Cortisol is high. I lose my frame and myself. Need to stop that. So the last time it happened, I pointed out the track record. She said we should take a break. I agreed. So now we are on break. Still talking, but getting some breathing room. No sex though. It's okay, though. I'd rather be clear headed for the next steps anyway.

Zara is highly interested, I think. Or at least determined. She keeps coming to the table even when I push her away. Earlier I dated other women and she kept the plate spinning. So in that sense, she seems like good marriage material, I just can't seem to crack this nut of when we "try" to get things to work it's like she tries so hard she loses herself and then she gets upset at something insignificant (because of me) and the anger flares up into an anger orgasm and the cycle repeats.

Zara has zero other relationships in which this pattern of behavior occurs, which makes it difficult for her to navigate and difficult for me to relate to her what is going on from my perspective. She is observant. Psychologically aware.

So here I am, on break. Filling my time with working out, eating healthy, reading my backlog of interests (like finishing TRM). Do I re-engage? If so, what can I do differently to avoid the pitfalls of the past? Is it unreasonable to expect that it could be possible?

Or is this the longest **** test that has ever been squeezed out (2 years)?

-RedBeardless

YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE TO FIX ANOTHER PERSONS EMOTIONAL ISSUES.

If your better judgment is telling you this behaviour is endemic to her potentially non-ideal upbringing and not merely circumstances then save yourself while you can.

The few times I get into arguments with SOs I always come back to "if there is a real issue here lets fix it. if you are just whining about the wallpaper of your life dont waste my time."

I.E. I dont care if you dont like the way that how I looked at someone else made you feel.(for example) If you actually feel there is an issue of infidelity here then lets deal with it but your feelings about your feelings about your interpretation of something I may have or may have not done is a waste of time and energy.

Caveat: I am very much not looking for a LTR. I rarely do. I make my intentions known from the jump.

 

[Kotaix]

She sounds like a manipulative b!tch past her prime and trying to lock you down. Go find someone who doesn't pick fights with you.

You're emotionally invested in a bad woman who it's going to make you regret life. A good relationship does not require this level of work. Get out while you can.

 

[RedBeardless]

Okay, the overwhelming majority oppose moving forward or maintaining anything with Zara. Just consider normalizing based on the fact that I am in a negative spot and in this thread am only really discussing the problems/challenges.

That being said, the next step is improving SMV and getting back into plate spinning. Working out is going well. Not sure where to go with plate spinning, even after the holidays.

 

[RedBeardless]

Signed up for bodybuilding. Coach is pretty impressive. I feel lucky for the opportunity to train with her. She may help me fix my longstanding running issues.

Visited Zara. We had breakup sex. She may have been fertile. No condom. Did Plan B, which does nothing after ovulation.

I feel neither good not bad about it. We'll see in 14 days or so.

Redbeardless

 

[Black Widow Void]

Welcome aboard....

Currently, you have one thing that she can not control (unless you voluntarily relinquish) and this your freedom.

Like most relationships, they start out with a certain amount of self-compromise, but once there's a bit of relationship security, a more accurate image is revealed (this applies to both men and women).

Now that she appears more secure in your relationship, you are seeing a more accurate image of Zara. I bet that this current (and more accurate) image is not nearly as pretty as in the beginning.

Judging by what you've shared, it sounds like ... once she is able to secure this relationship (with marriage) the ugly side will get uglier and the prettier side will not be as pretty.

 

[RedBeardless]

Period is here. Things appear to be tempered. This is a good thing.

Black Widow Void, I never intended to date Zara. She was moving away, we had sex. She got attached and wanted to date, but I kept it at casual sex and going out from time to time. She'd drive a state away to visit. She was and is persistent.

I'd say the image I had of her at the beginning was the least attractive. It was difficult to connect and the language barrier and all that. But now, you're right, as the comfort comes, so do the unspoken expectations. She had expected and assumed compliance for her every wish. Unrealistic in any circumstance. She has stopped demanding things when upset, so that's nice.

If I wanted to get out of this situation, how can I do that? She is really nice in the gentle sense, from a good family, professional, attractive, and I have no desire to cause undue harm. And at the same time I am afraid of starting to spin plates from OLD during C19. I just moved so my social network is not so great. Especially since I have no need to grow it more than necessary with her around.

Thinking out loud. Need to eat again. See you later.

RBL

 

[lostintime]

In TRM Rollo mentions true desire cannot be negotiated, like the obligated showings above. How can a guy tell the difference?

Rollo is talking about SANE women. Women that aren't personality disordered or mentally ill. It does not apply to your situation.

 

[RedBeardless]

Zara broke up the relationship. The basis was that neither of us were going to give each other what we wanted, so we were just torturing each other. We were holding each other back. She also ended all communications, unlike previously.

I can see some element of truth. But also, there was a lack of compromise or integrating of what the other wants or a lack of reasonability about what is wanted.

I could see myself happily marrying her and giving her what she wants, though I would need her to stop when I say stop and take no for an answer.

I am giving it 30 days off before any comms go out, if at all. Enough time to sleep on it. In the mean time, OLD. New thread for that.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and time.

 

[IamtheAlphamale]

If you want to be more able to stay in frame you should try meditating. As you grow your natural reactions will be better than trying to be a certain way.

I generally just dump girls if they start arguing all the time. I have a rule which is basically if they become more trouble than they are worth then they get dumped