Overtraining and the Truth.....

CarlitosWay

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I see the word "overtraining" thrown around a lot in here and in a few other forums. MOST people will never know what overtraining truly is. Burning out a little, under recovery yes. Here Christian Thibs explains much, much better....

Christian Thibaudeau said:
1. Train Hard, Recover Harder

I've said it time and time again: The more you train without exceeding your capacity to recover, the more you'll grow and the stronger you'll get.

I'll go one step further and say that most people don't train hard enough to progress past the beginning of the intermediate stage. When they first start, they gain because any training represents a drastic increase compared to the hole they were wearing through the couch. But as soon as they get past the beginner stage, gains become exceedingly rare because now that their body is used to physical stress, it takes a lot more of it to force adaptation.

One of the reasons why these people fail to train hard enough to stimulate gains is out fear of overtraining (which is often just a justification for laziness).

Well, let me tell you this: True overtraining is exceptionally rare. In all my life as an athlete and coach, I've only seen two real cases of overtraining, and in both the guys were Olympians training over 30 hours per week under tremendous psychological stress.

In reality, most elite athletes train over 20 hours per week, with some even hitting the 40-hour mark. Not all of this is strength training; speed and agility work, conditioning, and skill practices are also on the menu.

Before you throw the doping argument in my face, I've seen a ton of young athletes who were obviously not on drugs follow that type of schedule. I've worked as the head strength coach of a sports academy where kids ranging from 12 to 18 would go to school from 8:30 am to 12:00 pm, then train or practice from 1:00 to 5:00 pm every day. Their programs included daily strength work, agility training, and practices cumulating over 20 hours per week. None of them were overtraining; all of them progressed quite well.

Similarly, most high-level Olympic lifters train for three hours per day spread over two or three daily sessions. Heck, Canadian National team member Marilou Dozois-Prévost engaged in two sessions daily, each lasting two hours, and would often extend these to do additional jumping or gymnastic work... when she was 14!

The benefits of youth? Maybe.

But how do you explain the case of Marcel Perron, who at 68, would lift for two hours in the morning, sprint for 30 minutes before lunch, and train for two more hours in the evening? His partner, Emery Chevrier, who power cleaned 285 and power snatched 225 pounds at a bodyweight of 170 when he was 70, would do the same minus the sprints.

And on the practical side, I've known quite a few farmers who chugged along for eight hours straight day after day, doing work that'd bury the most hardcore gym enthusiasts, without overtraining.

The problem is that most people lack the recovery capacity and don't take the necessary means to recover properly.

The Barbarian Brothers, two of the hardest training bodybuilders mankind has ever known, said that there was no such thing as overtraining, only undereating.
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While not 100% accurate, they have the gist of it. Most people who think they're overtraining are simply under-recovering. While you can't make your body invincible to overtraining by pigging out, undereating, and especially undernourishment, can drastically reduce your capacity to recover.

Here are some things you can do to increase your recovery capacity:
So most people can't even warrant the use of the word "overtraining". So some people need to wake up a little.
 

Cure

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Interesting,
but the key question is what are the methods mentioned at the bottom, reguarding increasing recovery capacity?

where did you get this from?

cheers,

Cure.
 

CaptainJ

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Cure said:
Interesting,
but the key question is what are the methods mentioned at the bottom, reguarding increasing recovery capacity?

where did you get this from?

cheers,

Cure.
I'm guessing:
Eat Big
Sleep Big
Don't work out every day
 

CarlitosWay

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Cure said:
Interesting,
but the key question is what are the methods mentioned at the bottom, reguarding increasing recovery capacity?

where did you get this from?

cheers,

Cure.
Oops should have included that also oops...here you go.

Christian said:
B) Give Yourself the Proper Nutrients

If protein is the bricks needed to build the house, carbs and fats are the workers' salary. If you don't pay them enough, they won't build the house, or at the very least the roof will leak and the plumbing will back up.

For the natural individual, protein should be around 1.25 to 1.5 grams per pound when trying to add size, and 1.75 grams per pound when trying to lose fat. There's more protein when dieting down because when you're trying to lose fat you'll be forced to cut carbs and/or fat. In that energy deficit, the body will look for other ways to produce the required energy.

Under the best circumstances, this energy would come from stored body fat. But in reality, some of it can come from protein. The liver will also transform some of the amino acids into glucose. Sadly, this is unavoidable. You want to minimize it, but some neoglucogenesis is bound to happen.

The increase in protein, while it can't prevent protein from being used to produce glucose, will at least protect your muscles from being broken down. The body will prefer to break down the readily available free-form amino acids than destroy muscle tissue.

After protein, you need to adjust your energetic nutrient intake (carbs and fat). The amount of each will vary depending on your goal of gaining mass or losing fat.

But simply put, the more training you perform, the more energetic nutrients you'll need. This energy can come from various ratios of fats and carbs, depending on how you react to each.

If you feel like you aren't recovering from your workouts and you're lacking energy, gradually increase your energetic nutrient intake.

C) Reduce the Inflammatory Response to Training

While the inflammatory response is a necessary step in stimulating growth, the body often overdoes it. As a result, you may start to suffer from nagging aches and pains that reduce the efficacy of your workouts.

A good fish oil supplement like Flameout is the perfect first line of defense in reducing excess inflammation.

I use Carlson's fish oil......


D) Go Alkaline

An acidic diet has several downsides: reductions in most metabolic processes, the anabolic response to training, and the ability to mobilize fat, and an increase in the inflammatory response to training.

Sadly, for us, protein sources are generally acidifying. And it's the same story for grains and refined carbs. Since, as bodybuilders and strength athletes, we ingest a lot of protein every day, we must counter the potential increase in acidity by ingesting alkaline foods.

Most fruits and veggies are alkaline, except:

Corn
Lentils
Olives
Winter squash
Blueberries
Canned or glazed fruits (because of the added sugar)
Cranberries
Currants

Glutamine can also have a positive impact on acidity by helping clear the acid components.

So, consume something alkaline (shoot for veggies as much as possible) every time you eat protein or grains. If you don't get enough in your regular everyday diet, consider using Superfood.

E) Quality Sleep

With our current lifestyle, it's hard to get those eight to nine hours of uninterrupted sleep because of elevated cortisol and catecholamine levels. When these are high, after a stressful day of work for example, it's hard to get that deep sleep you need for optimal growth and performance.

Furthermore, a lot of us train after work, around 6 or 7 pm. Training also elevates cortisol and catecholamine levels. Ironically, in that case, we don't get the full benefit of our training because of our training!

To get a good night's sleep:

• The room must be completely dark. No light source, regardless of how faint. If you have an alarm clock, turn it so that you won't see the time while in bed. If you can't get the room completely dark, wear an eye mask. Yeah, it looks stupid, but who cares? Nobody sees you.

• Don't leave your cell phone or computer in the room. The fewer "computerized" items you have in the room, the better.

• Set the room temperature a bit colder than the rest of the house.

• Learn and practice relaxation techniques.

• If you need some help relaxing and falling asleep, I suggest Z-12. Melatonin is also good, but it can leave you groggy.
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• The use of cortisol-lowering supplements in the evening will be of great help to those who live a stressful lifestyle and/or train late. Phosphatidylserine at 400 mg plus glycine at 0.1 grams per pound of bodyweight post-workout and around one hour before bed will help.
 

mrRuckus

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Is this seriously a semantics argument?

"teehee you said overtraining instead of 'under recovery.' u newb!!! u r so dum!!!"
 

Kerpal

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I'll go one step further and say that most people don't train hard enough to progress past the beginning of the intermediate stage. When they first start, they gain because any training represents a drastic increase compared to the hole they were wearing through the couch. But as soon as they get past the beginner stage, gains become exceedingly rare because now that their body is used to physical stress, it takes a lot more of it to force adaptation.
This is exactly why I always say that anyone who hasn’t exhausted their personal limits of linear progression needs to do a basic program like Starting Strength before they do anything else.

I agreed with this paragraph, however I have to say most of the examples he gives are ridiculous:

Before you throw the doping argument in my face, I've seen a ton of young athletes who were obviously not on drugs follow that type of schedule. I've worked as the head strength coach of a sports academy where kids ranging from 12 to 18 would go to school from 8:30 am to 12:00 pm, then train or practice from 1:00 to 5:00 pm every day. Their programs included daily strength work, agility training, and practices cumulating over 20 hours per week. None of them were overtraining; all of them progressed quite well.
Good genetics + the fact that training for kids usually entails lots of standing around and socializing. It’s not like they’re training for 4 hours a day nonstop.

Similarly, most high-level Olympic lifters train for three hours per day spread over two or three daily sessions. Heck, Canadian National team member Marilou Dozois-Prévost engaged in two sessions daily, each lasting two hours, and would often extend these to do additional jumping or gymnastic work... when she was 14!
This is a retarded example. It’s the Olympics. The best athletes in the world. Anyone who doesn’t have elite genetics has already been automatically filtered out of contention, (unless we’re talking bull**** “sports” like curling). Then on top of that there’s doping, steroids etc.

But how do you explain the case of Marcel Perron, who at 68, would lift for two hours in the morning, sprint for 30 minutes before lunch, and train for two more hours in the evening? His partner, Emery Chevrier, who power cleaned 285 and power snatched 225 pounds at a bodyweight of 170 when he was 70, would do the same minus the sprints.
Good genetics. I googled these guys' names and they're competitive weightlifters, a sport that automatically selects for people with good recovery abilities, a high percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers, and the ability to generate large amounts of power in proportion to maximal strength.

The people on this board, for the most part, don’t have good genetics. We have average to below average genetics, or else we wouldn’t be on this board. Obviously people with good genetics can train a lot harder and have better recovery, injury resistance, etc.
 

CarlitosWay

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Kerpal said:
The people on this board, for the most part, don’t have good genetics. We have average to below average genetics, or else we wouldn’t be on this board. Obviously people with good genetics can train a lot harder and have better recovery, injury resistance, etc.
For the most part? Neither you nor I know this. So to say that, well is ignorant. To automatically put yourself in this or that category without even lifting hard for a few years is well stupid if you ask me.

Look at Dorian Yates he looked like some skinny ass average guy at 18-19. Yes I acknowledge he used steroids but just cause one uses doesn't make them Olympia material. By your demonstrated opinion if I would have shown you his picture at 18-19 http://tnation.tmuscle.com/forum_images/auto/r/350x0/f/b//fbe6b_ORIG-Kid_Yates.jpgand I said this guy is going to win 6 Olympias in the future. You would probably say "Nope he has average or below average genetics, can't be done"
 

Jitterbug

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Plus Olympics athletes are professionals. They don't have to go to work or do other things like we do. They have other people preparing meals for them, giving them massages & other things to help them recover better. Elite genetics only go so far.

One of our local ex-Olympic lifters (now bodybuilder & elite security guard) used to eat over 13000 calories A DAY while training 8 times a week. He was obviously well taken care of by the sports institute. A normal person who has a job and a normal social life doesn't have the time (nor money) to afford preparing that much food.
 

Kerpal

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CarlitosWay said:
For the most part? Neither you nor I know this. So to say that, well is ignorant. To automatically put yourself in this or that category without even lifting hard for a few years is well stupid if you ask me.

Look at Dorian Yates he looked like some skinny ass average guy at 18-19. Yes I acknowledge he used steroids but just cause one uses doesn't make them Olympia material. By your demonstrated opinion if I would have shown you his picture at 18-19 http://tnation.tmuscle.com/forum_images/auto/r/350x0/f/b//fbe6b_ORIG-Kid_Yates.jpgand I said this guy is going to win 6 Olympias in the future. You would probably say "Nope he has average or below average genetics, can't be done"
I would ask about his training history. If he has no training history there's no way to tell what he's capable of. If you read peoples' logs on here you can see that most of us do not have exceptional genetics.
 

CarlitosWay

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mrRuckus said:
Is this seriously a semantics argument?

"teehee you said overtraining instead of 'under recovery.' u newb!!! u r so dum!!!"
Just having a bit of good ol' fun is all.....

Nope, it's more a wake up call for guys using the real overtrained people as a scapegoat for their own laziness.....so sir I can't see how that's a semantics argument.
 

semiferger

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I gone through some of the post great discussion but I hope you know how incredibly wrong you are about this. I dont mention it to be an ass to you or anything but you should know that you can over-train a body part, so that you dont make that mistake in the future.
 

CarlitosWay

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semiferger said:
I gone through some of the post great discussion but I hope you know how incredibly wrong you are about this. I dont mention it to be an ass to you or anything but you should know that you can over-train a body part, so that you dont make that mistake in the future.
How incredibly wrong about what? We're having a lively debate on a larger scale involving people and those who misconstrue what real overtraining is.

You're bringing nothing new to this discussion.
We're not arguing that you can or can not overtrain a muscle...We're talking about the general public, rank beginners and novices who are acting as if they can overtrain very easily. When most of them eat like ****in pigeons, sleep sporadically and train like idiots. Which is to blame for their short falls.

Hell even coach Charles Poliquin even recommends at times to really overtrain a lagging muscle, or your whole body on PURPOSE. Then back off for a week or so. To shock the body into more growth/strength. His physique speaks volume that he preaches what he says. Yet most don't have the experience to tackle something that complex on unless diet, training, rest and all that is in order.
 
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