Ok, I kind of give up. I'm doing something wrong with women and don't know what.

[nismo-4]

Who said I asked a woman for advice? If your talking about my friend's comment, I wasn't asking her for advice, was just telling her why I changed my plans for that night. I have no intention of following any girl's advice, at best it's some passive **** (like waiting and a girl will fall into my lap), at worst it's some crazy afc action.

My bad. Actually, at best, it's stupid, at worst, it's lame. Regardless. I must commend you for knowing that.

I don't have pre-planned convos that I use, I let the convo flow naturally. The convos could be about anything, though I tend to keep them short (I try to get meet ups). I try to use humor and try to convey that I'm interested in them as more than friends.

I may be wrong, but you need to just DO use humor and DO convey you're interested. Worst that can happen is the girl says no. With your convos, pay attention to your surroundings and talk about that.

The last real interaction I had with the girl who flaked recently was a text convo we had when we were drinking with our respective friends.

I personally don't like texting cuz you can't see the girl's facial expressions.

I told her that I was gonna have a killer hangover the next day and might need a cute nurse to take care of me (she's a nurse and was trying to tell me hangover remedies). She seemed to think it was funny (and apparently made her blush).

Nice move. You'd think that was FTW!

After that quick text convo I tried to set up the meet, she agreed, and haven't heard from her.

I wonder why she just wasn't that into you. Did you end up in the friendzone from the get-go? How did you pique her interest? Did you make her a better offer than the other 23 guys who are going after her? Did she have a boyfriend? Can you answer all four of these questions accurately and honestly?

There's not many "moves" I can use when I can't get the girls to meet up. I just try to be a fun, cool guy.

The only thing you can do is understand that she wasn't worth your time and move on. Why the b**ch flaked is another story.

Read between the lines homie!

 

[Kal0051]

I wonder why she just wasn't that into you. Did you end up in the friendzone from the get-go? How did you pique her interest? Did you make her a better offer than the other 23 guys who are going after her? Did she have a boyfriend? Can you answer all four of these questions accurately and honestly?

I don't think I was in the friendzone from the get go, I did get her to agree that it would be better if she treated my hangover herself.

Not really sure how I pique her interest, guess she thought I might be a cool person to get to know.

Did I offer her a better offer? What is this, an auction? So beats me, I did come up with what I thought (and a couple of people I know) was a fun thing for us to do. Maybe she thought it was lame, hence the no contact (but again, who knows).

I have no idea if she had a boyfriend. I didn't ask (personally I don't think it's a good question to ask), and she never told me that she had one. Actually I was under the impression that she didn't.

 

[nismo-4]

I don't think I was in the friendzone from the get go, I did get her to agree that it would be better if she treated my hangover herself.

If you were, that was a good way to escape, one step at a time.

Not really sure how I pique her interest, guess she thought I might be a cool person to get to know.

You should know that girls know within 5 seconds of seeing you whether they wanna get with you or not. Pay attention to her body language and tone of voice. Did she sound like she was intrigued by you aside from the fact you had the balls to approach?

Did I offer her a better offer? What is this, an auction? So beats me, I did come up with what I thought (and a couple of people I know) was a fun thing for us to do. Maybe she thought it was lame, hence the no contact (but again, who knows).

Nope, it's Deal or No Deal. Just like the last thread you wrote and I responded to. (text messaging and she never called back) Why settle for a $25k prize when the Million dollar case to $50k is still on the board? You'd say no deal just as fast as her. Or maybe the b**ch got eaten by an alligator. Maybe she was getting railed by another guy. Maybe she felt forced into conversation with you. Maybe she's a natural d**ktease. Maybe she's an attention wh0re. Maybe someone offered her a 300 dollar steak dinner. Regardless, I'd stop stressing. No use crying over spilled milk.

I have no idea if she had a boyfriend. I didn't ask (personally I don't think it's a good question to ask), and she never told me that she had one. Actually I was under the impression that she didn't.

With that one, ask if she's single. Never, ever ask if she got a boyfriend. It'll come out if you didn't get her interested. If she was interested, she would have made sure to meet you, whether she had a boyfriend or if she was busy. If she was actually busy, she would have given you a counter offer of another date and followed through instead of a free one-way ticket to Friendzone, Georgia or Flakeonyou, Arizona.

You know the drill. But it seems something's still lost in translation here.

 

[Kal0051]

You know the drill. But it seems something's still lost in translation here.

yep, something does seem off. But I don't know what it is, hence my annoyance. If it was just this girl I'd just be like "whatever", but something similar happened with another girl a few months ago, we'd use sexual humor all the time (some pretty outrageous stuff too), and she was talking about us dating. Maybe all the girls I meet are attention *****s or d*ckteases.

 

[nismo-4]

yep, something does seem off. But I don't know what it is, hence my annoyance. If it was just this girl I'd just be like "whatever", but something similar happened with another girl a few months ago, we'd use sexual humor all the time (some pretty outrageous stuff too), and she was talking about us dating. Maybe all the girls I meet are attention *****s or d*ckteases.

You probably didn't build enough rapport or chemistry or general attraction.

I'm careful with those women that seem too damn friendly, cuz they are usually the ones who shoot your ass down when you show interest. Then they OFFER you a trip to their friendzone!

Do you have a social circle or are you alone?

Sometimes I ask myself if all the women I meet in the Atlanta area are lowlife strippers, hookers, escorts, goldiggers, or attention flakes. None of these types of women are worth my time. The women out here will quickly date a man with a Mercedes or BMW and negate the interesting man driving the Chevy Cobalt. I haven't met a single good woman out here who isn't showing me interest because she thinks I'm rich or a provider.

Have you tried day gaming in a bookstore or library or gym? Make the girls want what they can't have, you being what they can't have in this case. But look at yourself and think about what you have to offer the girl besides your penis and your money.

I really need to know where and when you game.

 

[SharinganUser]

Came to this realization today when talking to a girl I know. I was telling her about the latest girl that flaked on me, and she asked me what I'm doing to drive these women off. And I have no idea for the life of me. Of course her advice was to stop looking for women and just let one come to me (like that works, and I know, I've tried in the past).

It's entirely possible that these girls were never interested in me other than a friend and when they figured out I was interested in them they ran away. But really, I know I'm a good looking guy so it's not possible that no girl is interested in me. I know guys that aren't that good looking, have ****ty jobs (like work for min wage once or twice a week) and they have amazing looking girlfriends.

I don't know what else to try. Don't have anyone who can tell me what I'm doing wrong. And not that it matters but I'm not interested in club game (partly because I don't like clubs, and partly because I work late every Fri and Sat night). I really need to get a handle on this, because I'm just wasting my time approaching girls right now. Any ideas would be very appreciated. Thanks.

The Tao of Steve says:

Dex: I'm serious. If you're hanging out with women as friends, your doing your research in the wrong library.
Dave: What's wrong with being friends with women?
Dex: Nothing, but getting out of that category of 'friend' is harder than like getting out of Alcatraz.

Dex: Look at me. Look at me, okay? Technically, I shouldn't be getting laid, but I do. And do you know why, Dave? Because when I'm hanging out with a woman, that's all I'm doing is hanging out, talking, listening. I'm not sitting there thinking about how to get in bed with her. And this completely confuses them because they're saying "Wait a minute. I'm so much better looking than this guy. Isn't he attracted to me?" The basic principle: We pursue that which retreats from us.
Rick: It's from Heidegger.
Unnamed Guy Playing Poker: Groucho Marks said the same thing. "Act like a woman can't join your club, and she'll do almost anything to get in."

 

[Kal0051]

The Tao of Steve says:

Dex: I'm serious. If you're hanging out with women as friends, your doing your research in the wrong library.
Dave: What's wrong with being friends with women?
Dex: Nothing, but getting out of that category of 'friend' is harder than like getting out of Alcatraz.

Dex: Look at me. Look at me, okay? Technically, I shouldn't be getting laid, but I do. And do you know why, Dave? Because when I'm hanging out with a woman, that's all I'm doing is hanging out, talking, listening. I'm not sitting there thinking about how to get in bed with her. And this completely confuses them because they're saying "Wait a minute. I'm so much better looking than this guy. Isn't he attracted to me?" The basic principle: We pursue that which retreats from us.
Rick: It's from Heidegger.
Unnamed Guy Playing Poker: Groucho Marks said the same thing. "Act like a woman can't join your club, and she'll do almost anything to get in."

thanks for quoting things that aren't helpful at all

 

[comic_relief]

It's advice like this that generates more failure topics posted here! Make a woman your friend then try to get laid later? WTF? You'll be in the friendzone!

The response to this post is something that I forgot to put in.

Try to make a woman a friend means that you come in with an attitude that is far different and less threatening then a lone wolf on the hunt (I don't like doing club/bar game. I do book store/church/classroom game). I am not telling anyone to become friends with the girl, but go with that attitude of becoming a friend.

It lets you go in with this attitude, then you become the chooser and not the choosee. I believe going in with this attitude lets you become a chooser because instead of just being after one thing (which would be sex) you can EVALUATE the girl better to see if she is worth YOUR time. If she isn't worth your time, then you can choose not to go after her. If she is and IMPRESSED you enough, then you can choose to go after her.

The reason that using this roadmap will/can get you laid is because the person that uses it must "MAKE A FVCKEN MOVE!!!" You must remove all doubt from the equation. The only reason that a person ends up in the friendszone is because they didn't "strike while the iron is hot" (so to speak).

Nope, they make it stronger.

I've had the exact opposite with me.

You need to get the girl interested first.

Disagree, women are never the entire chooser. If you go after any quality women, then of course, you will not be the chooser. Isn't there any women out there that you got the number of because she "wasn't your type" or was too fat, ugly, etc. Everybody has had that happen to them at least once, you were the chooser at that moment and choosing "HELL FVCKEN NO! I WON'T GO!"

In order for a girl to even get a call back from me, they must impress me in some capacity. There are two girls from Jersey that just never have impressed me at all (looks, style, conversation. I just can't find anything useful in them). Those two girls I wouldn't ever want to talk to in a million years. Those two girls are girls that I never would have spoken to at all.

You come off as asexual. Not good.

Read my response about sexualized energy.

Also treat yourself as a sexualized man. Too many people that I know try to take this advice as "Turn off all sexualized energy." I treat my friends with a form of sexualized energy.

Most people that try to accomplish becoming friends with a girl just turn that energy off. I never do that, but yes, MAKE A FVCKEN MOVE!

I usually make that energy known during the first meeting (albeit much more subtle) and after the third or so meeting a much more blunt look into that sexualized energy.

This is the way that I turned two of my ex-gf of two years friends into FWB's instead of just keeping them as friends . Comic_relief approved

The sexualized energy is what is important. I automatically inject sexualized energy into all conversations to force the person to think of me as a sexual being whether it be a regular girl or the president of a fortune 500 company (true story). People know that I am not an asexual goober.

And that's exactly why we have 40 year old virgins.

Most people on this site are willing to cut off their one arm, just to make the other one stronger. It makes me laugh sometimes. And so to, over 50% of the world's population is female, do we really have to cut off half of the earth's population from becoming a friend?

I say it is time that we disassociate ourselves with the idea that women cannot be friends. Women can quite easily become friends once you learn how to communicate with women through emotions, instead of logic. I currently have more female friends then male friends (I have about double the amount) and I talk about inner/outer game with the female friends or I talk about relationships with them. I don't usually listen to the advice given by them, but it forces them to think of me as a sexualized being.

It is the most important thing in the world to do is make them think of you as a sexualized being at all time. Once one makes it into the friendszone, it is because you never made that move. The time when I made most of my female friends is when I was dating my ex-gf for two years. After that, of knowing women for two years, I seduced 2/3 (and the other 1/3 I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole) of my ex-gf's best female friends .

Goddammmit! Women know you wanna get in their pants. They know this sh*t. Why not let your masculinities be known. BTW women know within 5 seconds of meeting you whether they wanna f**k you or not.

I semi-agree with you on this.

Yes, they know that you want to do that, but why not be different? :rockon: This is why b!tch shields are so high on many MANY women. Most guys, go hit on them, and then leave with a number. If you go up with a friendly hi and try to become genuinely interested with them then you set yourself apart from 90% of the male population.

If you are doing the sexualized energy very subtly (sp.), then you are letting them know from the get go that you are interested in them. Then get the fvcken number if she impressed you enough.

I do not entirely disagree with you on the women knowing if they want to sleep with you, but you are placing everything with looks in the first five seconds and the "hello." There is also something known as personality that is much more important then looks. Looks only get you in the door, but the rest makes all the difference (this is not a looks post and if you want to make that debate with me then please start a new thread. No need to hijack the thread).

Once again proves why there are so many damn virgins over 40 these days.

ok, why then do I manage to use the same damn thing that I have outlined here and have gotten four women in the last month and a half with only a very limited amount of girls? It works the same way over and over again. I become friends with them, show sexualized energy, and then seduce.

Two LR's for your amusement from two girls that I was in the friendszone with:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=163307
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160729

I believe the easiest way to stay in the friendszone is to become asexual. The easiest way to leave the friendszone is to sexualize yourself and make a damn move! Remove all Doubt!

Here's a tip that I wrote a little while ago:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1571939

- comic_relief

 

[Kal0051]

Do you have a social circle or are you alone?

Have you tried day gaming in a bookstore or library or gym? Make the girls want what they can't have, you being what they can't have in this case. But look at yourself and think about what you have to offer the girl besides your penis and your money.

I really need to know where and when you game.

Yeah I have a social circle, but it's starting to dwindle (people moving away, just being to busy to hang, it happens).

I don't game in a specific location, I've chatted girls up in coffee shops, stores (not bookstores though, around here people act like bookstores are libraries and tell you to be quite, bizarre).

Basically if I see a girl that I think is cute I'll approach and chat her up. Most of the time it doesn't go anywhere, but I have gotten numbers through it.

I meet most of the girls I've gone on dates with through other people.

 

[nismo-4]

Yeah I have a social circle, but it's starting to dwindle (people moving away, just being to busy to hang, it happens).

Ouch, you'd best rebuild or be prepared to be labeled as a loner.

I don't game in a specific location, I've chatted girls up in coffee shops, stores (not bookstores though, around here people act like bookstores are libraries and tell you to be quite, bizarre).

Day game is so much better anytime. In libraries, talk about the books that you and the girl are reading. Bring a romance novel to the table.

Basically if I see a girl that I think is cute I'll approach and chat her up. Most of the time it doesn't go anywhere, but I have gotten numbers through it.

Getting a # doesn't mean you got the girl. It probably didn't go anywhere past just friends cuz you may have been a bore or the girl's a d**ktease or whatever. Assume the girl is attracted to you but if she's feeling forced to talk to you, give it up, she ain't worth it.

I meet most of the girls I've gone on dates with through other people.

These other people could be your social circle. Do these dates go well? Are these girls into you or are they forced to go out with you?

You know the drill. Read between the lines.

 

[nismo-4]

To respond to this and be glad to do so!

The response to this post is something that I forgot to put in.

Thanks for putting it in here.

Try to make a woman a friend means that you come in with an attitude that is far different and less threatening then a lone wolf on the hunt (I don't like doing club/bar game. I do book store/church/classroom game).

The latter is far better as the b*tch shields are far weaker. Of course going out looking like or acting like a lone wolf on the hunt will make the woman put up the b*tch shield.

I am not telling anyone to become friends with the girl, but go with that attitude of becoming a friend.

Hell yeah! It makes you flow naturally like you don't want the girl...I'm proving your point aren't I?

It lets you go in with this attitude, then you become the chooser and not the choosee. I believe going in with this attitude lets you become a chooser because instead of just being after one thing (which would be sex) you can EVALUATE the girl better to see if she is worth YOUR time.

I'm glad you understand and are helping me understand!

If she isn't worth your time, then you can choose not to go after her. If she is and IMPRESSED you enough, then you can choose to go after her.

Yet some guys still go after her even when they know that the girl will only hurt the guy's feelings or the girl is clearly being an attention wh0re. There is no cure for stupidity.

The reason that using this roadmap will/can get you laid is because the person that uses it must "MAKE A FVCKEN MOVE!!!" You must remove all doubt from the equation. The only reason that a person ends up in the friendszone is because they didn't "strike while the iron is hot" (so to speak).

You actually read my signature and let it marinate. Kudos! Men should know they need to take the damn initiative.

I've had the exact opposite with me.


Disagree, women are never the entire chooser. If you go after any quality women, then of course, you will not be the chooser. Isn't there any women out there that you got the number of because she "wasn't your type" or was too fat, ugly, etc. Everybody has had that happen to them at least once, you were the chooser at that moment and choosing "HELL FVCKEN NO! I WON'T GO!"

Quality b**ches got more options than you can shake a stick at! But that's stating the obvious.

In order for a girl to even get a call back from me, they must impress me in some capacity. There are two girls from Jersey that just never have impressed me at all (looks, style, conversation. I just can't find anything useful in them). Those two girls I wouldn't ever want to talk to in a million years. Those two girls are girls that I never would have spoken to at all.

At least you found out their real worth and didn't settle. These girls obviously didn't impress you. BTW They won't be here in a million years.

Read my response about sexualized energy.

The sexualized energy is what is important. I automatically inject sexualized energy into all conversations to force the person to think of me as a sexual being whether it be a regular girl or the president of a fortune 500 company (true story). People know that I am not an asexual goober.

The way to go! You seem pretty established in the state of Pennsylvania.

Most people on this site are willing to cut off their one arm, just to make the other one stronger. It makes me laugh sometimes. And so to, over 50% of the world's population is female, do we really have to cut off half of the earth's population from becoming a friend?

There is no cure for stupidity. Some guys just don't get it and never will. There will be a rise of 40 year old virgins.

I say it is time that we disassociate ourselves with the idea that women cannot be friends. Women can quite easily become friends once you learn how to communicate with women through emotions, instead of logic. I currently have more female friends then male friends (I have about double the amount) and I talk about inner/outer game with the female friends or I talk about relationships with them. I don't usually listen to the advice given by them, but it forces them to think of me as a sexualized being.

Having female friends can build your social circle and up your club game (wingwomen). You shouldn't listen to women's advice cuz more often than not you'll get advice based on what they think they want and get your feelings hurt when you cater to them.

It is the most important thing in the world to do is make them think of you as a sexualized being at all time. Once one makes it into the friendszone, it is because you never made that move.

An alpha male must strike while the iron's hot!

The time when I made most of my female friends is when I was dating my ex-gf for two years. After that, of knowing women for two years, I seduced 2/3 (and the other 1/3 I wouldn't want to touch with a ten foot pole) of my ex-gf's best female friends .

Damn, I need to make more female friends.

I semi-agree with you on this.

Yes, they know that you want to do that, but why not be different? :rockon:

Being different is always good.

This is why b!tch shields are so high on many MANY women. Most guys, go hit on them, and then leave with a number.

And it goes nowhere. That number is as good as a counterfeit rare baseball card.

If you go up with a friendly hi and try to become genuinely interested with them then you set yourself apart from 90% of the male population.

I'd love some details on how you do that. I know it's a recipe for success!

If you are doing the sexualized energy very subtly (sp.), then you are letting them know from the get go that you are interested in them. Then get the fvcken number if she impressed you enough.

What does sp. mean? I understand the rest though!

I do not entirely disagree with you on the women knowing if they want to sleep with you, but you are placing everything with looks in the first five seconds and the "hello." There is also something known as personality that is much more important then looks.

Personality can definitely help!

Looks only get you in the door, but the rest makes all the difference (this is not a looks post and if you want to make that debate with me then please start a new thread. No need to hijack the thread).

It's not worth debating even in a new thread. Within 3 days it'll become a looks matter thread!

ok, why then do I manage to use the same damn thing that I have outlined here and have gotten four women in the last month and a half with only a very limited amount of girls? It works the same way over and over again. I become friends with them, show sexualized energy, and then seduce.

Two LR's for your amusement from two girls that I was in the friendszone with:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=163307
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160729

I liked these and I got more insight by reading them.

I believe the easiest way to stay in the friendszone is to become asexual.

Or just be plain desperate!

The easiest way to leave the friendszone is to sexualize yourself and make a damn move! Remove all Doubt!

Strike while the iron's hot after getting her interested by doing this and you won't be in the friendzone to begin with.

Here's a tip that I wrote a little while ago:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1571939

Powerful but there is still no cure for the abundance of stupidity that's on this site.

- comic_relief

Read between the lines. I feel good that I wrote between them!

 

[Jitterbug]

Both of you guys (nismo-4 and comic_relief) are right about women and friendship / friendzone.

The Friendzone only happens to Nice Guys who are ashamed of their sexuality. If you're already known as a guy whom women find sexually attractive (e.g comic_relief had a GF then proceeded to get her friends post-breakup - fairly normal scenario really) then making female friends and getting to know them as friends first is a good strategy. If you're clueless and asexual then it's just gonna frustrate you more.

 

[vagrant]

I try to use humor and try to convey that I'm interested in them as more than friends.

BINGO!..:nono:

You don't have to let them know that you're interested in them. If the girl likes you, just sit back and relax. She'll do all the work trust me. I have girls who keep texting me and calling me trying to get my attention. They have no clue whether I like them or not, but that's not what's important. They key is, does she like you? If she doesn't let her go. If she does, trust me she will do all the work for you. That's why I never ask for girls' phone numbers. I keep a pen with me and I take her hand, hold it tight like a man, look her in the eye, smile and write mine. Sometimes they'll give me their cellphones so I can put my number in or I tell them and they put it in. Either way I don't give out mine. Anyways, next thing I know my phone vibrates and I get a text message from a number I've never seen before saying, "hey wuts up, it's blah blah." You need to listen to Pook when he tells you not to have a desire for a girl. It's impossible, but at least control it. It'll save you from having a oneitis for a girl, from being desperate and all kinds of things that you might do if you like a girl too much. Don't show too much interest if you just met the girl. The list goes on why, and I'm sure you know them. Let it grow in time bro.

 

[Kal0051]

You don't have to let them know that you're interested in them. If the girl likes you, just sit back and relax. She'll do all the work trust me. I have girls who keep texting me and calling me trying to get my attention. They have no clue whether I like them or not, but that's not what's important. They key is, does she like you?

then I guess I've never met a girl who's liked me because no girl has ever made the first move, I've always had to.

Than I guess it's hopeless Time to become a priest

 

[Maxtro]

The Friendzone only happens to Nice Guys who are ashamed of their sexuality. If you're already known as a guy whom women find sexually attractive (e.g comic_relief had a GF then proceeded to get her friends post-breakup - fairly normal scenario really) then making female friends and getting to know them as friends first is a good strategy. If you're clueless and asexual then it's just gonna frustrate you more.

Can somebody please give some examples having sexual energy?

I'm not consciously trying to be ashamed of my sexuality but I'm sure I'm doing something.

 

[comic_relief]

Can somebody please give some examples having sexual energy?

I'm not consciously trying to be ashamed of my sexuality but I'm sure I'm doing something.

Example:

Setting: playing poker with the new girl (K) sitting right next to me and her hot friend (BFF) setting next to her.

Me: "Hey K, could you give me a backrub"
K: "Sure, Hey [best friend] how about we both give him a backrub."
BFF: "OK" *starts giving a backrub*
Me: *happy*
BFF: *gives backrub for thirty seconds* "Alright, i'm not going any further with this unless I am getting some."
Me: "Uh..." *notices her stop giving the backrub and heard her* "Hey, you leave with me tonight, I'll be sure to give you a night that you won't ever forget "
BFF: " Oh if you were my boyfriend, I'd totally slap you. K, you shoudl slap him!"
Me: "I ain't nobody's boyfriend... yet"
K: " "

BFF flirted with me for the rest of the night I got the approval of the friends and apparently, the "permission" of BFF to date K.

I allowed myself to let it known that I am sexual being and showed sexual energy in the conversation. I did not let myself be that guy that is a wall flower with no social skills. Plus I forced her to think of me in a sexual way with my "night of pleasure" comment.

- comic_relief

P.S. I came in seventh place that night out thirty people

 

[Maxtro]

Example:

Setting: playing poker with the new girl (K) sitting right next to me and her hot friend (BFF) setting next to her.

Me: "Hey K, could you give me a backrub"
K: "Sure, Hey [best friend] how about we both give him a backrub."
BFF: "OK" *starts giving a backrub*

Wow, that's really forward. I really can't imagine me pulling that off. Just wow.

How did you become that guy who is completely unafraid of any possible reaction?

 

[Kal0051]

Wow, that's really forward. I really can't imagine me pulling that off. Just wow.

How did you become that guy who is completely unafraid of any possible reaction?

Asking a girl for a backrub is being really forward? ****, I ask and am asked by girls for backrubs all the time, never thought much of it.