New girl I'm seeing... And male friends.

[wjh]

So, this new girl I'm dating happens to have a few male friends. How many? Quite a few I imagine, she's really, really attractive. Most attractive girls have AFC orbiter male friends. We all know this and accept it as part of the game.

I may need a reminder, but how exactly do I move forward on this?

I really like this girl. But I'm not naive. I'm not going to let that cloud my judgment.

Here's the current scenario:

She's a young (22-yo) and pretty girl in another part of the state attending a conference. So, she's by herself in a place she's never been. Somehow, someway, her male friend Tyler, who lives a couple hours away from where she is staying, is coming to spend some time with her. I just got off the phone with her, when she mentioned him, I didn't react.

I've mentioned male friends w/ respect to girls and how it's typically a facade. I didn't want to get into it, but she practically agreed (to an extent). I know it's difficult for girls to admit these things, even if they know it's true, because it undermines their power. So in a sense, it kind of leaned a bit in my favor.

The good news is, her IL is fairly high. How high? I'm not sure. But I'm not turning into jello and spilling my guts just because she's really good looking.

My problem lies in understanding my own boundaries. As far as I know, this is the first time since I've dated her that she's hung out with another guy.

Do I feel comfortable with her spending the day with another guy in another city far, far from me? No, not really. So the question is, what next? We've only been talking/dating for about two weeks, but we just had sex for the first time two nights ago (and she made me dinner, and initiated having me spend the night).

Overall, she's a 22 year old young girl with hormones and a social environment filled with feminist propaganda. I'm really cautious with girls and my feelings. There's nothing I hate more than being optimistic about a situation, only to fool myself into thinking it's "different this time" - my old inner-AFC jealousy and insecurities begin to creep in.

Background on me: I dropped two plates recently and haven't picked up new ones. The only thing I can think of doing at this point is distancing myself a bit and continue to meet new girls.

Honestly, this all feels like a f*cking chore.

Maybe some encouraging words would make me feel better. I don't know.

 

[KontrollerX]

Here's how you proceed...

Fvck her for as long as you can and keep your emotions out of it.

She's a fvck buddy/summer fling and nothing more.

If you'd like to get into real relationships in the future though and are that type of guy that loves being in a relationship you have to set the frame for what you want in that relationship in the very beginning.

You and the girl need to go over your individual do's and don'ts.

If guy friends are a no go for you tell her that.

If she gives you sh!t about it and tries to turn that into an epic argument look her deeply in the eyes and take her hand.

Shake it.

Then say thank you for not wasting my time.

Then walk away.

She wasn't right for you.

You need a girl that agrees with you on issues that are major to you.

 

[Jeffst1980]

Say nothing about those orbiter guys for now. Keep seeing her, but make yourself somewhat unavailable--almost treat her like an FB. Aim to get and keep her IL high--if you do this, after a few more weeks she'll inevitably push for exclusivity--and THAT'S when you put a stop to those orbiter AFCs. Tell her you can't have a relationship with a girl that hangs around guys that are clearly interested in her one on one--that it's just not your style.

Interest level is a HUGE motivator, and if she's into you, she'll drop these guys without a second thought, just to get you to commit. If she doesn't or refuses to do so or calls you "insecure," then you stick to your guns and refuse to cave. You can keep seeing her, but don't commit so long as those vultures hang around her.

Orbiter AFCs have one goal: To get YOU out of the picture. Usually, they have no shot at the girl regardless, but that won't stop them from trying to destroy your relationship. There is absolutely no good that can come from them.

The only way you can really break a girl's habit of keeping orbiter AFCs around is to immerse her in your world. This doesn't mean you call her five times a day or check up on her constantly; it just means that YOU make the plans. You can't outright FORBID her to hang out with other guys, but you can subtly let her know that you don't approve and then OFFER AN ALTERNATIVE. If she's into you, she won't even put up a fight.

A lot of girls start hanging with orbiter AFCs when their relationship starts getting stale, or when their bf won't make the effort to make plans. If you aren't clear about your position on orbiter AFCs from the onset of the relationship, you're gonna have a helluva time stopping them later on.

The law, CRUSH YOUR ENEMY COMPLETELY from 48 Laws of Power is applicable here--not to say threaten orbiter AFCs with violence!! Just get your girl to willingly drop them from her life.

 

[wjh]

Thanks guys.

Jeff, I guess the situation that makes this a bit different from typical orbiters is that I can't offer an alternative to this. She just thought it'd be cool to call up this other guy who was relatively near where she was going to be to hang out. I can't offer to drive up 5-6 hours or fly to her, and quite frankly I would rather not have to do that. Ideally, she wouldn't even consider it.

I've been of the school of thought that says that I should keep IL so high as to get her to commit, and ask for my exclusivity. Only that will ensure high IL and a relationship that goes the way I want it. Then, it seems, would be the optimal time to set terms.

If it doesn't work out, it doesn't. I'll just have to wait. I don't think there's anything else I can do right now. Although this does bother me, and it's distancing me. She may not know it, or care about that. But that's just what I'll have to deal with.

I'm finding it "work" to keep my emotions in check. It's making me feel weird, because I thought that for all the good things this girl has going for her, the whole "good feelings" aspect of starting something with a new girl (outside of sex), wasn't supposed to be this conflicting. I've struggled with this before as an AFC years ago, but have learned to control it much more effectively. I suppose it's why she's attracted to me. I haven't "b1tched up". It almost seems like being emotional, loving, having feelings, all that stuff is not attractive to women at all. Being there for her, being a rock, being the man, being congruent - that's what matters.

And so I'll just keep these things to myself because I don't know what benefit expressing them will do other than to make me look weak (which I may be).

 

[STR8UP]

Just get your girl to willingly drop them from her life.

That's a contradiction. "Get" her to "willingly" drop them? Not gonna work, I'm afraid.

If you're the kind of guy who can't handle something like this with a particular woman, you don't need to be with that woman.

You can't make her want to get rid of these guys any more than you can make her want to be attracted to you. She is who she is. Does she abuse this male friend thing? Is she an AW? If so that's one thing. But a woman simply having male friends....there isn't anything wrong with that in and of itself. It's how she deals with them that is important.

And a relationship that's only two weeks old? You better be careful cause if she doesn't have enough investment into you then your "issue" with this is going to turn her off in short order.

 

[wjh]

Thanks Str8,

I think I should be clear, neither of us have mentioned relationships in serious terms. This just kind of fell on our laps and we're getting to know each other. I've been here before, however, and this sort of thing usually develops to "more" - and so far, this friend thing, seems to be the only thing that's not really awesome about her. Without boring you with details, she's a great girl.

Do I believe she's going to sleep with her friend? No, not at all. I could be wrong, but if I had to bet I would bet on not. It's just the general orbiter issue and other guys constantly hitting on her that makes me wonder how active she is about disqualifying other guys when she's dating someone new that she really likes (assuming myself).

We've joked about relationship-type things, because it's pretty obvious we're heading in that direction. For the most part, I think I'm OK with that. At least if I don't get too critical. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly where I draw the line. Zero friends? I think that's a little too extreme. If she was a total AW I would have known that by now and I wouldn't have spent time with her to begin with (I'm not a fan of AWs).

I know it's a little premature to have relationship-type thoughts, but we've clicked really well, really fast. We're not talking marriage here, just an understanding of some expectations down the road a bit. When that conversation happens, and it may not, that's when I have to know for sure if I'd like to move forward. I like to be prepared.

One other note about attraction: You're right, I can't force her to be attracted to me, but I sure can exhibit more attractive traits in general, or improve myself, to the point where she'd be more apt to be interested in me. Now, I understand the importance of not doing things to better your own life JUST to be attractive to more women, but I won't deny that working out, making more money, and being more level-headed is attractive.

 

[SoylentGreen]

Hey guys...heres some words from a recovering AFC - me. I wouldn't worry about the male friends, especially if they have hung out with the woman for a long time. I have tons of female friends (due to being an AFC) and I know that none of them would go for me.

The reason I became friends with each and every one of them is the same: I couldn't make the next step or I tried to escalate and they said no. I am not making any new female friends after reading the tips on this site, but I've decided to keep my old ones. And time after time, I see them going for new guys and I used to get sooo jealous. I used to sit there and while she talked about what she wants in a guy, I would think "thats me, exactly" but yet she never went for me. A friend is a friend is a friend. I chased a girl from when I was 17 until like 23, sticking around through relationship after relationship, every time she broke up with a dude there I was, offering my shoulder to cry on, thinking "NOW she'll be mine" and it NEVER happened. I was her FRIEND. I was like one of her girlfriends pretty much, which is embarrasing looking back.
As a side note, I won in the end. I still have NEVER touched her, but I made friends with her new boyfriend, (yes, I still talk to her) and he cheats on her, he works two days a week and she has to work five - six days to pay the bills and buy food for the TWO of them. I go over there to play guitar with the dude and she is always mad about something, usually finances. He's a layabout. I on the other hand, have in the past year, got a promotion, then a raise, new car, plus a great new attitude(thanks to this site) I am ten times the man her boyfriend is. And I look at her and I think "too late baby" - yuo had your chance with a "good" guy now you're stuck with this life you chose...muhahahaha!!!
ANYWAY...
...being that your lady is super hot, there are likely a ton of dudes that love hanging out with her. They are in her "friend zone" and you are the bad-ass that actually slept with her. YOU are the MAN to these chumps, they will, if anything, only be able to talk SH!T about you, which will make THEM look like punks and make HER think she's glad she's only friends with these dudes. She knows she can have THEM anytime she wants but she chose YOU. Read that again. She chose YOU, not THEM. She knows they want her, but she went and picked YOU. They are suckers. She may even think they are gay, or not worthy of her, or whatever, or why would she only be friends with them. They probably are there to boost her ego and offer her some male insight on certain issues. They are like emotional tampons for these women. Like I used to be.

You have nothing to worry about, in my opinion

 

[jophil28]

So, she's by herself in a place she's never been. Somehow, someway, her male friend Tyler, who lives a couple hours away from where she is staying, is coming to spend some time with her. I just got off the phone with her, when she mentioned him, I didn't react.
Maybe some encouraging words would make me feel better. I don't know.

Why do you imagine she felt the need to tell you that Tyler was on his way?

Secondly, why do you think that Tyler is going to all this trouble ?
Men RARELY seek women''s company for pure 'friendship'.

Thirdly, my experience and observation of woman at conferences is that they quickly 'buddy up' to one or more other single women to have dinner with or go out for a drink later. Importing a male "friend" is unusual. to say the least.

Lastly, this situation is a yellow flag. I see her invitation to Tyler ( he was invited by her in one form or another ) as early evidence of her habitual behavior with orbiters.

 

[wjh]

Why do you imagine she felt the need to tell you that Tyler was on his way?

I have no idea. Full disclosure maybe? At least she told me?

Secondly, why do you think that Tyler is going to all this trouble? Men RARELY seek women''s company for pure 'friendship'.

Oh, believe me sir, I'm fully-aware of the mentality of an AFC orbiter. I used to be one. A lot of us have.

Thirdly, my experience and observation of woman at conferences is that they quickly 'buddy up' to one or more other single women to have dinner with or go out for a drink later. Importing a male "friend" is unusual. to say the least.

Yea, that brings up another point. The conference actually starts tomorrow. She went there today, early, to check out the city. Will Tyler be sticking around until tomorrow? If so, where is he staying?

Lastly, this situation is a yellow flag. I see her invitation to Tyler ( he was invited by her in one form or another ) as early evidence of her habitual behavior with orbiters.

If it's habitual, if this is something she does all the time w/ several guys - then no, I will not be sticking around. Fvck that. Orbiters aren't just vying for her attention/time by asking her out on psuedo friend-dates, they're also trying to sabotage the relationship she's currently in. The more orbiters, the more likely stupid drama and moronic pussified antics will fly my way. All of that, to me, is just not worth it. The difficulty for me will be in determining where I draw the line. And I have to be conscious of whether or not I'm drawing that line to liberally because she is hot, and thus excusing her behavior on superficial terms, or is that line real to me. Ultimately, if I don't draw that line somewhere I feel comfortable with, I won't be happy.

Now if it does turn into just a FB situation, then I have to turn this around ASAP and stop treating her the way I have - because she doesn't deserve that type of attention, and it's draining.

 

[Tazman]

I would say any guy in Tyler's position isn't thinking to himself "Well, let me go hang out with this hot piece of ass because she's such a great friend."

I think it's understood that even if he doesn't make a move, his intentions are irrelevant. She knows why guys like hanging out with her, all women do, it just depends on what her intentions are and why she has any particular guy around at a given time. They could have sex, not tell you, and you'd be none the wiser.

There's honestly nothing you can or should do in this situation. Just sit back and enjoy it for what it is at this point in time. Any attempt to persuade her not to hang around other guys is going to be perceived as insecurity on your part, let her be the one who's "worried" about what you're doing, not the other way around. Don't forget that attractive women have egos and they are usually more bold in pushing boundaries.

It actually would have been a nice experiment to make her believe by your actions, not words, that you were planning on being out and about while she's gone by making your conversations with her very short and making absolutely no bones about what she's doing by "encouraging" her to enjoy herself.

I can't remember who posted this, but a guy on this forum did just that to his girlfriend when she went away for vacation, her friends said she was such a drag because she was paranoid about what he was doing while she was gone, lol funny stuff.

 

[Hooligan Harry]

Background on me: I dropped two plates recently and haven't picked up new ones. The only thing I can think of doing at this point is distancing myself a bit and continue to meet new girls.

Honestly, this all feels like a f*cking chore.

How would she feel if you had female friends tagging along to a conference you went to? Even if you were open about it?

 

[guru1000]

Depending on your intent, this is indeed a yellow flag.

If you plan on keeping this not exclusive, then you may find this to be a perfect non exclusive relationship.

It sounds like you have already given her the LTR prizability. You may be too emotionally invested into a girl of two weeks. You need to pull out your emotional investment and treat her like a non exclusive partner.

She has pulled out her covert tactics with the open disclosure of a guy friend. A woman with high IL and/or worthwhile quality would not dare risk her relationship with you with such a disclosure. She either has a lower IL than you perceive or lacks the fundamental qualities that make her a worthy candidate. Either or these are not qualities conducive to an LTR.

First thing you do is to reframe your perception of this relationship. It is NOT EXCLUSIVE. She has not earned that right and with her latest maneuver, she has definitely won the bronze medal for a LTR.

Next, keep dating. Keep all your options open and DO NOT succumb to LTR thoughts until one proves leagues ahead of the harem in respect to compatibility, respect and interest level.

Your concern is legitimate. Keep her as a FB or walk away.

 

[STR8UP]

Do I believe she's going to sleep with her friend? No, not at all.

Women will tell you everything you need to know if you know how to read between the lines.

Having male friends isn't a sign of disrespect in and of itself. you need to go with what your gut tells you. If you feel there is something "off" then there is a 99% chance that there is.

I would be suspicious of her inviting a male friend to hang out like that. But you know what? This could all be a sh!t test. If you get all jealous after two weeks she's gonna drop you like a hot potato.

For all you know, when things heat up between the two of you she might not be so into the idea of hanging out with these other guys. It could be just a case of her interest not being as high as you think it is at this point.

To be honest, I'm not sure exactly where I draw the line. Zero friends? I think that's a little too extreme. If she was a total AW I would have known that by now and I wouldn't have spent time with her to begin with (I'm not a fan of AWs).

Exactly. Where DO you draw the line?

The problem is, you can't draw lines when it comes to this sort of thing. If you do, she will resent you for it and it will be over sooner than later.

A woman is going to do what a woman is going to do. If she is used to having these guys around and you tell her she can't see them. she's either going to dump you in short order or she will "try" to get by without them and probably at least be in contact with them behind your back.

We live in a different world today than 50 years ago. A "sociable" person generally has friends of both sexes. This is especially true if you live in the city.

I probably know as many women as men. If some chick comes into my life I'm not going to tell the women I know to get lost. I wouldn't do certain things with them if I am in a committed relationship, but that's where it comes down to me knowing where ti draw the line. If your chick knows where to draw the line (this situation is questionable but it's too early in the relationship....you don't really have a say) then there should be no problem.

One other note about attraction: You're right, I can't force her to be attracted to me, but I sure can exhibit more attractive traits in general, or improve myself, to the point where she'd be more apt to be interested in me. Now, I understand the importance of not doing things to better your own life JUST to be attractive to more women, but I won't deny that working out, making more money, and being more level-headed is attractive.

That is really the only thing you can do to hold onto a woman....be a better man and don't change who you are as you settle into a life with her.

My point was that if she doesn't see anything wrong with having guy friends, you can't put your foot down and MAKE her not want to have them any more than you can make a woman attracted to you if she isn't.

Bottom line- you are in a catch 22 and the only thing you really can do is let everything play out and decide for yourself as the relationship grows if she is stepping out of bounds according to your criteria. there is nothing you can actively do to change her on this, cause if you do it's going to push her away.

 

[DJDamage]

Guess what? You are not into LTR with this woman as of yet.

Therefore she can go out with any guy she wants, until she decides to stick her claws into one.

At this point (as others already have said) you have invested too much emotionally over this hot piece of ass, you barley even know.

You should have wished her a good time as soon as she mentioned this "friend". At this point it don't matter if its in a "friend" travelling a couple of hours to see her or a "friend" that lives next door to her, she is not obligated to sleep with only you just yet.

 

[window]

To impose a cage around a woman that sais she can't have any male friends is ridiculous and a sure way to build resentment over the longer term. If she's invited you over for dinner then asked you to stay what exactly is the problem. Take your ego out of the equation.

 

[wjh]

I'm not going to encourage her to have her fun with AFC orbiter guy friends because that's not the sort of behavior I would want in a girl I'm into. I'm just going to be indifferent and put myself in check. I may re-frame onto a FB path versus LTR. I'm too emotionally invested, that I agree with.

At the end of the day, I'm just glad I can post here and get some good advice.

But I do have a related question. I don't have any girls that are "just" friends that I hang out with. If a girl is hot and interesting I pursue. If she's not hot I'm not inspired to give a damn and thus don't put any energy into building a friendship. So to the guys out there with girl "friends" that you hang out with, why? Other than using them for the disingenuous purpose of hooking up with her friends, what do you get out of it?

 

[jophil28]

But I do have a related question. I don't have any girls that are "just" friends that I hang out with. If a girl is hot and interesting I pursue. If she's not hot I'm not inspired to give a damn and thus don't put any energy into building a friendship.

And that is part of our dilemma. Men do not pursue women for friendship, but women frequently form "friendships" with men . We meet a hot woman. she has 6 orbiters, but we have no female 'friends" . THat gives her immediate power.

Along the road, women also have figured out how to derive enormous rewards from their male "friends" ..attention,validation, ego bloating. dinners and outings...and so on. Because these are males, they are also wired to go for the pvssy, so they orbit in the hope that her friendship shield will crack one night right after YOU and she have a big fight.

Secondly attractive women are used to men displaying RIVALRY ..Hot woman have grown up with men competing for their affection. These ladies never have lonely moments - they always have at least one poor smitten " friend" at their beck and call. THat is how her world operates.

MY guess is that your new G/f is playing the 'rival card' with you. IT is one of their most familiar games. Pit two men against each other and watch the games.. what an ego boost for her. SHe cant lose.
IF this game is in progress, you lose when you show any jealousy - and she wins because she feels that she is right back up there on her pedestal where she belongs..

 

[Jitterbug]

IF this game is in progress, you lose when you show any jealousy - and she wins because she feels that she is right back up there on her pedestal where she belongs..

If he plays this game, he loses either way. He either gets jealous and loses to the other guy, or the other guy cracks first and loses the game, then he "gets" the girl but she's still the prize in the end, not him.

And that is part of our dilemma. Men do not pursue women for friendship, but women frequently form "friendships" with men .

Interesting that you put it that way. I do have a few female friends (real friends, I'm not physically attracted to them but I think they're cool to hang out with) but I didn't pursue them for friendship. They offered me friendship out of nowhere.

But I do have a related question. I don't have any girls that are "just" friends that I hang out with. If a girl is hot and interesting I pursue. If she's not hot I'm not inspired to give a damn and thus don't put any energy into building a friendship. So to the guys out there with girl "friends" that you hang out with, why? Other than using them for the disingenuous purpose of hooking up with her friends, what do you get out of it?

What I get out of it:

- Invites to events
- Cool crowd to hang out with
- Designated drivers to get my drunk arse home
- Glowing recommendation to their hot single friends
etc.

Kind of like my male friends, minus the sports playing & BS macho talks.

 

[Jeffst1980]

That's a contradiction. "Get" her to "willingly" drop them? Not gonna work, I'm afraid.

If you're the kind of guy who can't handle something like this with a particular woman, you don't need to be with that woman.

You can't make her want to get rid of these guys any more than you can make her want to be attracted to you. She is who she is. Does she abuse this male friend thing? Is she an AW? If so that's one thing. But a woman simply having male friends....there isn't anything wrong with that in and of itself. It's how she deals with them that is important.

Anybody who's ever had a female friend that fell off the face of the earth when she got a new boyfriend will understand what I'm talking about. Same goes for anybody that tried being "just friends" with a girl after getting dumped. If a girl has high interest in a new guy and is forced to choose between him and an orbiter AFC, she'll pick the new guy.

Getting rid of orbiter AFC's isn't putting a cage around your woman, it's just refusing to be put in situations that might compromise the strength of your relationship. If a guy is into your girlfriend, she will know it instinctively--and if she's respectful, she will thus avoid hanging out with him one on one. Otherwise, she's crossing the line.

Of course she can have male friends that aren't orbiters--but the intimacy of their friendship needs to be restricted. It's ok for her to invite her male friend from work to a party you're hosting. It's not ok for her to go to his apartment to watch a movie with him alone.

After college, close yet platonic friendships don't really exist between men and women. A married man wouldn't go to the movies alone with his buddy's wife. A girl in a relationship should understand where the line of propriety lies in having male friends.

SoylentGreen: You have articulated precise why orbiter AFCs ARE something to worry about. You may not have hooked up with the girl in question, but you still are an unseen factor in her relationship.
If your aim is still to separate her from her boyfriend, you could do so easily by bringing up the fact that he's cheating on her. If you still were interested in her and not friends with her bf, I'm sure that's what you would do, even if it was done indirectly.

Most orbiter AFCs are not friends with their target's bf. In fact, most of them hate his guts. Trying to build a relationship around a bunch of bitter orbiter AFCs is akin to raising a child in a neighborhood full of convicted sex offenders.

 

[jophil28]

I am wondering whether she invited Tyler to visit with her BEFORE or AFTER WJH met her.

IF AFTER, then the situation is probable that SHE called TYLER to let him know that she was going to a conference near him. THis was about the same time when she was getting busy with the poster... not good in my book.