In the seduction community you will often hear that there are two types of seduction, two types of “game”, natural, and canned. Should you be using canned, memorized routines, or just say what comes naturally?
Canned game refers to rehearsed techniques, lines and routines. It is highly structured, and more rule based. As I will discuss elsewhere, some rules are still important even if you have primarily natural game (like NOT dropping $300 on dinner for a first date). However, the need for more structure is usually necessary for those that are developing their natural abilities.
If you read the seduction literature you will see many argue that one must make a decision, a choice between natural game and game based upon structure. This whole line of reasoning is flawed. Your goal is always to improve your natural game, but you do not need to jettison any and all structured material. As you improve, yes your natural game will get better. You will have less reliance upon techniques and pick up lines. As a heuristic, lets say you have very solid natural game. Eighty percent of you game is pure natural, and 20% is structured.
You have become quite strong, easily opening women and getting conversations established. Does that mean you cannot use a highly structured tool like a venue change or a yes ladder? No, of course not! I use the yes ladder every day to get desired behavior from my wife? Woodhaven calls this tool “reverse supplication.”
Here is an example: I want Sushi, and I want my wife to pay for it. I ask “are you hungry?” “Yes” she replies. I will say “I love Sushi, don't you?” “Yes” she replies. I then ask “Lets go to Blue Fish” (a reasonably price local restaurant). She says “they closed.” I know they closed, but she does not know that I know they closed.
Oh no! I protest. Shoot. Where else can we go? I know that my wife has been researching a new Sushi place, but again she does not know I know. “I want to try the new place, SuperExpensiveSushi she declares.”
“Oh sweetie” I replied, I can't afford that place, you know I just lost $2k on that idiot web designer who never completed my site.” Would you be upset if we went Dutch.” “I got it my Boo Bear” she sings back to me.
Please take note of what happened here. The yes ladder is structured, but within the framework I had lots of wiggle room to adjust the conversation to get the desire outcome. Also, what was another principle we saw at work here? It is something called “Prizing” or if you prefer fancier words then "Reverse Supplication (WoodHaven) it I got my wife to drop $170 dollars taking me out. She is a smart and rational women. A smart woman does not do stupid things. Therefore taking me out to an expensive dinner must mean that I am valuable. I become the prize. My value increases. Women do not leave a prized high valued man. This is rational acting 101.
Canned routine-based conversation allows you to know what you’re going to say before you even talk to the girl, and uses proven techniques like the Jealous Girlfriend Opener (JGO).
Someone who’s conversation is routine-based, can stack routines on top of each other. Doing so is perfectly OK as long as you are moving towards natural game. Generally, those that are new need more structure, at least until they become more “natural.” Even experienced seducers will occasionally use canned techniques. I used the “Jealous Girlfriend Opener” many times. I stacked JGO with the “Yes Ladder” and a “Venue Change” on many occasions. Doing so had me at the mall and in the dressing room trying on clothes with a woman I just met 20 minutes prior.
The question asked by many is, should you be using canned, memorized routine, or should you go completely natural? This question is artificial. You do NOT need to make this choice, it unnecessarily handicaps you. Yes, you must have well developed natural game. You must become a man of value who has something to offer. You also must become a good conversationalist. However, you can still use to structured routines when appropriate. Structured routines are akin to telling a well rehearsed and funny joke. Once the joke is over you then go back to discussing what comes naturally.
In much of the seduction literature an artificial wall is erected between natural and structured seduction.
There is no good reason for doing so. I compare it to the martial art notion of ranges. You go from kicking range to punching range to grappling range. A skilled martial artist will do so easily. Kicking, punching, clinch wrestling to the ground and back again. You do not limit yourself to one range. This does not mean that anyone aspect of fighting is more important than another.
They are all tools. In the world of MMA Boxing is not more important than ground fighting and vice versa….they are both important and you must be good at both to be successful. It is not either or.
That is a problem in the seduction community and its frequent insistence upon limiting yourself to one skill. It is not either or, the trick is you must use the proper tool for the job.
The The Wall drawn between the two benefits no one.
Ideally you will be able to slip back and forth from natural game to structured as need be.
You just met a gal. You are immediately facing the three second rule (keep in mind, the 3 second rule does not matter if you are talking to another women when your eyes meet): When you first meet a woman and your eyes briefly lock together, you have three seconds to open her, unless you are in a conversation with another woman. You must immediately approach. If you take longer than 3 seconds you turn into a creepy stalker with a staring problem. It will not matter if you are a natural, you are thus structured early on. You stay with your natural conversation skills to successfully establish a rapport and the conversation is going well. You don’t really need any help to number close her (IE get her phone number).
However, it does not matter how much of a “Natural” I am (or you) there are going to be times when you need some help.
You will need more help if a woman is exceptionally attractive. For example I have very, very specific traits that are absolutes in terms of my standards. Rarely do I see a woman who has the combination I like. When I do, and even if I am a seduction GURU I might need help. Even with my extensive background in seduction every now and then I will freeze up. It happens. When I first saw my wife I immediately knew that I must have her. As I approached her eyes melted my soul and I decided to go with the JGF opener. Once I got her talking I immediately went back to natural game. She talked for 10 minutes non stop and it was done, I was in.
Natural game must be authentic, comprised mostly of you asking questions, teasing her a bit over her answers and keeping the conversation flowing. You want her to become engrossed in the conversation. You want eye contact to be strong and for her to touch you. These are called buying signals. You now have a decision to make: Number close (get her number) and leave, or do a Venue Change (take her somewhere else). To make this transition you use a structured technique called the yes ladder.
You want her doing most of the talking. You pause and ask ‘hey, do you like clothes?” “Yes”, she says. “Do you like shopping?” “Yes” she replies. “Do you like the mall?” “Yes.” Do you want to go to the mall and go shopping?” “YES!!” she squeals.
Keep in mind one critical fact: You are not buying her anything...YOU are shopping for yourself! The goal is to get her into the dressing room while you try on clothes. She is there with you because you are a man of high value.
At the mall you keep moving….”oh wow, look at that guy, he is 7 feet tall….look at her she is 300 lbs”…..move, move, move.
Eventually you get her into the dressing room. The goal is NOT intercourse (unless that is all you want). I want you building dating rotations with high quality women that really like you. The sex is going to be there. If you have a Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday rotation of women who really like you, just do the calculations. You will be having sex 10 times a week if your work the program.
OK, so back to the mall dressing room. Kiss her. Passionately. Go to second base, then stop. Take her back to her car, get her number, kiss her and let her go. She will be going crazy over you during the next few days waiting for you to call,
The important point here is that all through this initial dating process you are slipping in and out of natural game and structured game.
Canned game refers to rehearsed techniques, lines and routines. It is highly structured, and more rule based. As I will discuss elsewhere, some rules are still important even if you have primarily natural game (like NOT dropping $300 on dinner for a first date). However, the need for more structure is usually necessary for those that are developing their natural abilities.
If you read the seduction literature you will see many argue that one must make a decision, a choice between natural game and game based upon structure. This whole line of reasoning is flawed. Your goal is always to improve your natural game, but you do not need to jettison any and all structured material. As you improve, yes your natural game will get better. You will have less reliance upon techniques and pick up lines. As a heuristic, lets say you have very solid natural game. Eighty percent of you game is pure natural, and 20% is structured.
You have become quite strong, easily opening women and getting conversations established. Does that mean you cannot use a highly structured tool like a venue change or a yes ladder? No, of course not! I use the yes ladder every day to get desired behavior from my wife? Woodhaven calls this tool “reverse supplication.”
Here is an example: I want Sushi, and I want my wife to pay for it. I ask “are you hungry?” “Yes” she replies. I will say “I love Sushi, don't you?” “Yes” she replies. I then ask “Lets go to Blue Fish” (a reasonably price local restaurant). She says “they closed.” I know they closed, but she does not know that I know they closed.
Oh no! I protest. Shoot. Where else can we go? I know that my wife has been researching a new Sushi place, but again she does not know I know. “I want to try the new place, SuperExpensiveSushi she declares.”
“Oh sweetie” I replied, I can't afford that place, you know I just lost $2k on that idiot web designer who never completed my site.” Would you be upset if we went Dutch.” “I got it my Boo Bear” she sings back to me.
Please take note of what happened here. The yes ladder is structured, but within the framework I had lots of wiggle room to adjust the conversation to get the desire outcome. Also, what was another principle we saw at work here? It is something called “Prizing” or if you prefer fancier words then "Reverse Supplication (WoodHaven) it I got my wife to drop $170 dollars taking me out. She is a smart and rational women. A smart woman does not do stupid things. Therefore taking me out to an expensive dinner must mean that I am valuable. I become the prize. My value increases. Women do not leave a prized high valued man. This is rational acting 101.
Canned routine-based conversation allows you to know what you’re going to say before you even talk to the girl, and uses proven techniques like the Jealous Girlfriend Opener (JGO).
Someone who’s conversation is routine-based, can stack routines on top of each other. Doing so is perfectly OK as long as you are moving towards natural game. Generally, those that are new need more structure, at least until they become more “natural.” Even experienced seducers will occasionally use canned techniques. I used the “Jealous Girlfriend Opener” many times. I stacked JGO with the “Yes Ladder” and a “Venue Change” on many occasions. Doing so had me at the mall and in the dressing room trying on clothes with a woman I just met 20 minutes prior.
The question asked by many is, should you be using canned, memorized routine, or should you go completely natural? This question is artificial. You do NOT need to make this choice, it unnecessarily handicaps you. Yes, you must have well developed natural game. You must become a man of value who has something to offer. You also must become a good conversationalist. However, you can still use to structured routines when appropriate. Structured routines are akin to telling a well rehearsed and funny joke. Once the joke is over you then go back to discussing what comes naturally.
In much of the seduction literature an artificial wall is erected between natural and structured seduction.
There is no good reason for doing so. I compare it to the martial art notion of ranges. You go from kicking range to punching range to grappling range. A skilled martial artist will do so easily. Kicking, punching, clinch wrestling to the ground and back again. You do not limit yourself to one range. This does not mean that anyone aspect of fighting is more important than another.
They are all tools. In the world of MMA Boxing is not more important than ground fighting and vice versa….they are both important and you must be good at both to be successful. It is not either or.
That is a problem in the seduction community and its frequent insistence upon limiting yourself to one skill. It is not either or, the trick is you must use the proper tool for the job.
The The Wall drawn between the two benefits no one.
Ideally you will be able to slip back and forth from natural game to structured as need be.
You just met a gal. You are immediately facing the three second rule (keep in mind, the 3 second rule does not matter if you are talking to another women when your eyes meet): When you first meet a woman and your eyes briefly lock together, you have three seconds to open her, unless you are in a conversation with another woman. You must immediately approach. If you take longer than 3 seconds you turn into a creepy stalker with a staring problem. It will not matter if you are a natural, you are thus structured early on. You stay with your natural conversation skills to successfully establish a rapport and the conversation is going well. You don’t really need any help to number close her (IE get her phone number).
However, it does not matter how much of a “Natural” I am (or you) there are going to be times when you need some help.
You will need more help if a woman is exceptionally attractive. For example I have very, very specific traits that are absolutes in terms of my standards. Rarely do I see a woman who has the combination I like. When I do, and even if I am a seduction GURU I might need help. Even with my extensive background in seduction every now and then I will freeze up. It happens. When I first saw my wife I immediately knew that I must have her. As I approached her eyes melted my soul and I decided to go with the JGF opener. Once I got her talking I immediately went back to natural game. She talked for 10 minutes non stop and it was done, I was in.
Natural game must be authentic, comprised mostly of you asking questions, teasing her a bit over her answers and keeping the conversation flowing. You want her to become engrossed in the conversation. You want eye contact to be strong and for her to touch you. These are called buying signals. You now have a decision to make: Number close (get her number) and leave, or do a Venue Change (take her somewhere else). To make this transition you use a structured technique called the yes ladder.
You want her doing most of the talking. You pause and ask ‘hey, do you like clothes?” “Yes”, she says. “Do you like shopping?” “Yes” she replies. “Do you like the mall?” “Yes.” Do you want to go to the mall and go shopping?” “YES!!” she squeals.
Keep in mind one critical fact: You are not buying her anything...YOU are shopping for yourself! The goal is to get her into the dressing room while you try on clothes. She is there with you because you are a man of high value.
At the mall you keep moving….”oh wow, look at that guy, he is 7 feet tall….look at her she is 300 lbs”…..move, move, move.
Eventually you get her into the dressing room. The goal is NOT intercourse (unless that is all you want). I want you building dating rotations with high quality women that really like you. The sex is going to be there. If you have a Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday rotation of women who really like you, just do the calculations. You will be having sex 10 times a week if your work the program.
OK, so back to the mall dressing room. Kiss her. Passionately. Go to second base, then stop. Take her back to her car, get her number, kiss her and let her go. She will be going crazy over you during the next few days waiting for you to call,
The important point here is that all through this initial dating process you are slipping in and out of natural game and structured game.
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