Narcissism vs. Irrational Confidence

[BlueAlpha1]

Do you see the differences?

http://newdarktriad.com/blurred-lines/

How does this relate to the age old argument of Alpha vs. Beta?

 

[zekko]

By contrast, Irrational Confidence is a rock solid belief in yourself as an individual that cannot be shaken.

This seems to be false by definition. If the confidence is irrational, then it makes no sense. Therefore it is an overconfidence. And when you get out into the real world, overconfidence will be exposed as reality will not align with your illogical view of yourself. Now maybe you will still persist in your irrational view, but I don't agree with the article's idea that irrational confidence is REAL, while narcissism is false.

If a person is truly confident, it seems like he would not need to take things to excess. Only if one is NOT really confident, that's when he will he will try to adopt this philosophy of irrational confidence. Because if he was really confident, he would have no need for it.

As a side note, I am suspicious of any site or philosophy that puts too much emphasis on the dark triad traits. Advocates of those traits seem to think that you can't succeed without them, but they can hurt you just as much as help you, and more likely will hurt you.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

This seems to be false by definition. If the confidence is irrational, then it makes no sense. Therefore it is an overconfidence. And when you get out into the real world, overconfidence will be exposed as reality will not align with your illogical view of yourself. Now maybe you will still persist in your irrational view, but I don't agree with the article's idea that irrational confidence is REAL, while narcissism is false.

I respect and appreciate your reply. I wrote that article for my blog tonight.

I ask you to take the term "irrational" with a grain of salt. In context with my central thesis on the site, irrational is in the eye of the average beholder. In other words, confidence to such a degree that an average person would question if a person's temerity is actually excessive. Yes - in my opinion, there is a line where Irrational Confidence becomes stupidity. I'm not talking about a rookie mountain climber thinking he can climb Mt. Everest. What I am talking about is a young man quitting his day job to roll the dice on entrepreneurship against all odds and the wishes of his family or spouse. That's ballsy, but it's a calculated risk. We agree that uncalculated risk is delving into foolishness. That would just be arrogance, and that's the distinction we're trying to draw. Irrational Confidence is an elusive realm beyond confidence but before arrogance/narcissism.

If a person is truly confident, it seems like he would not need to take things to excess. Only if one is NOT really confident, that's when he will he will try to adopt this philosophy of irrational confidence. Because if he was really confident, he would have no need for it.

You and I are going to fundamentally disagree on this. You have to go beyond the pale. Was Arnold rational when he left Europe for the west with $10 in his pocket? Is the average looking man being rational by most standards when he talks to the hottest girl in the club?

The idea is that by doing this you essentially obliterate fear itself, and beast mode becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I really believe this is necessary for most guys, because more so than ever we're acting like insecure women.

As a side note, I am suspicious of any site or philosophy that puts too much emphasis on the dark triad traits. Advocates of those traits seem to think that you can't succeed without them, but they can hurt you just as much as help you, and more likely will hurt you.

I haven't read or seen this. Would you mind specifics?

In terms of New Dark Triad, my partner and I simply came up with the three most common traits that keep recurring in our daily lives with each success and decided to organize them into a system that may work for others. They've helped us become better men, but we don't claim it's gospel.

 

[zekko]

I haven't read or seen this. Would you mind specifics?

In terms of New Dark Triad, my partner and I simply came up with the three most common traits

I was just saying that PUA types try to push Dark Triad traits as being good things that help you succeed. And that can be true, but there's also a potential downside to become a psychopath, a narcissist, or a Machiavellian manipulator (although they never seem to talk about that). You could end up crashing and burning - like losing your job, being ostracized socially, or ending up in prison, for example. Most true psychopaths I've known are huge, huge failures.

I guess you guys have come up with a NEW triad though. I know one is irrational confidence. What are the other two?

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Personal Responsibility which is something many members of my family struggled with immensely, and it really hurt their lives. It's important in this society of victimhood.

Critical Thinking is the other. I think this is where it all starts. It's how we all got here. I never really fit in in high school, always questioned the motives of my college professors, and never trusted the media. Most of my opinions are politically incorrect.

They've helped me become financially sound and have the courage to travel the world at 25 years old while I see a lot of my peers not taking action.

Again thanks for the insightful replies.

 

[zekko]

Well, I am certainly in favor of Personal Responsibility and Critical Thinking.
I like your new triad better than the old one.

Still not so sure about that Irrational Confidence business...although there is probably a time and a place for it.

 

[Oxide]

confidence is confidence in MANY ASPECTS, including confidence in your decision making and knowing when you've had enough, when to stop, etc.

I know I don't have it right now because NOTHING is enough, hence desperation, hence less confidence since feedback doesn't align with expected result.

 

[guru1000]

Question is why would it be irrational to be overly self-confident. Experientially, I could argue that it would be irrational not to be overly self-confident. That's what's great about free will: You can choose.

 

[zekko]

Question is why would it be irrational to be overly self-confident. Experientially, I could argue that it would be irrational not to be overly self-confident.

The more confident a man is, the more he might attempt to do. If he thinks he can jump over a two foot gap easily, he will chance it. To some extent, women love this sort of reckless behavior (motorcycle riders, for example). If he is a little MORE confident, he may think he can jump a three foot gap. Or a four foot gap. Or a three yard gap. Or a five yard gap.

At some point OVERCONFIDENCE comes into play, and if he thinks he can do more than he actually can, then he is going to fall to his death.

At that point, I would say his confidence was irrational. And most certainly not a good thing.

 

[guru1000]

For centuries before 1954, running a four-minute mile was unfounded, and to many, ludicrous, perhaps irrational. After all, how could a mere human run so quickly? Could you picture a man in the 18th century openly declaring he would run this four-minute mile? He would be ridiculed. Notwithstanding the criticism and alleged "irrational" thought process, in 1954, Richard Bannister declared that he would break this four-minute mile paradigm. And he did. Since then, in the last 50 years, thousands of athletes worldwide have run the mile in less than Four minutes. Richard Bannister shattered the previous 500-year old societal thinking model.

How quickly physical results can change once societal thinking paradigms are altered and previously "irrational" thoughts are deemed "rational."

Today, if I were to say that I could run the mile in 3 minutes, would I not be the subject of ridicule, perhaps labeled "insane"?

If an overly-confident state cannot kill you, adopt it, as it is worth it's weight in gold. In the worse-case scenario, you have boldly lived and tried. In the best-case scenario, you could change the world.

 

[Oxide]

I've been the definition of supreme, irrational confidence. All you have to do is believe you are SUPER DUPER COOL. You know what breaks that, when you meet people WAY cooler than you are, and when you understand GIRLS LIKE THEM BETTER THAN YOU and would CHOOSE THEM OVER YOU.

Also, when you are supremely confident, some will like you, others will sneer at what a dumbass you are. But you are usually having fun, being a center of attention, etc... so it's cool. But at some point when you realize you can't SUPREMELY confident a chick or someone else into BULLSH!T when even you realize something is off - then you realize you are FULL OF SH!T!!

 

[zekko]

If an overly-confident state cannot kill you, adopt it, as it is worth it's weight in gold. In the worse-case scenario, you have boldly lived and tried. In the best-case scenario, you could change the world.

You make a good point. You know what they say: Reach for the stars and you may get the moon. I'm not sure that reaching or trying for something is the same as irrational confidence though.

It's funny to me that the manosphere wants everyone to be red pill, they want everyone to accept reality when it comes to women and how they are. But they want men to live in a fantasy world when it comes to their own SMV.

I am a realist. Like Oxide says: What happens when reality doesn't match up with the fantasy lie you are telling yourself in your head? I think you can only lie to yourself for so long, and you will be brought back down to earth.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Question is why would it be irrational to be overly self-confident.

Only "irrational" by society's definition or as defined by the "average" person. Of course, we know if it can't kill you it's not irrational at all. But someone who tells you from the time you're a child to "go to college, get a job, get married and retire at 62" would consider it insane to quit your day job in your 20's and travel the world ziplining and hiking the mountains. The word Irrational the context of New Dark Triad is used very tongue in cheek.

For centuries before 1954, running a four-minute mile was unfounded, and to many, ludicrous, perhaps irrational. After all, how could a mere human run so quickly? Could you picture a man in the 18th century openly declaring he would run this four-minute mile? He would be ridiculed. Notwithstanding the criticism and alleged "irrational" thought process, in 1954, Richard Bannister declared that he would break this four-minute mile paradigm. And he did. Since then, in the last 50 years, thousands of athletes worldwide have run the mile in less than Four minutes. Richard Bannister shattered the previous 500-year old societal thinking model.

How quickly physical results can change once societal thinking paradigms are altered and previously "irrational" thoughts are deemed "rational."

Today, if I were to say that I could run the mile in 3 minutes, would I not be the subject of ridicule, perhaps labeled "insane"?

If an overly-confident state cannot kill you, adopt it, as it is worth it's weight in gold. In the worse-case scenario, you have boldly lived and tried. In the best-case scenario, you could change the world.

This!!

I've been the definition of supreme, irrational confidence. All you have to do is believe you are SUPER DUPER COOL. You know what breaks that, when you meet people WAY cooler than you are, and when you understand GIRLS LIKE THEM BETTER THAN YOU and would CHOOSE THEM OVER YOU.

Also, when you are supremely confident, some will like you, others will sneer at what a dumbass you are. But you are usually having fun, being a center of attention, etc... so it's cool. But at some point when you realize you can't SUPREMELY confident a chick or someone else into BULLSH!T when even you realize something is off - then you realize you are FULL OF SH!T!!

If you're concerning yourself with "them", I take it the guys women liked better than you in your life, you're doing it wrong.

If it's real confidence, you don't have to have to feed women B.S. People should naturally gravitate towards your charisma. Some of the best game I've ever spat was on an airplane next to a hot girl. I wasn't there chasing or trying to peacock by way into a phone number - there was plausible deniability as we had to sit there for 3 hours. It started with a joke about the overhead compartments or seatbelts and she asks what you do. Alas, you're an interesting guy for real and she asked. It's hardly bragging.

You make a good point. You know what they say: Reach for the stars and you may get the moon. I'm not sure that reaching or trying for something is the same as irrational confidence though.

It's funny to me that the manosphere wants everyone to be red pill, they want everyone to accept reality when it comes to women and how they are. But they want men to live in a fantasy world when it comes to their own SMV.

I am a realist. Like Oxide says: What happens when reality doesn't match up with the fantasy lie you are telling yourself in your head? I think you can only lie to yourself for so long, and you will be brought back down to earth.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm a big believer that Irrational Confidence is very difficult and much harder to attain than the other two tenants, BUT if you have a strong sense of self responsibility and critical thinking than it is a reasonable goal. It may take a lifetime, but it's worth striving for. It is essentially self-actualization, the last step in Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs if you're familiar with that. So rare that anyone gets there.