my dose of reality on getting married

[jhl]

I've had a wonderful relationship with my GF for the past 2 years and I have decided to tie the knot very soon.

I've experienced a "dose of reality" so to speak on the hardships that I can expect during marriage. I felt compelled to write this post because in large part I've led a very successful transformation through analyzing my weaknesses and transforming myself into a person who can handle modern day relationships and women (largely in part through selective filtering of threads/posts on SS).

I've had to overcome my demons and by no means do I think it's worse than many others in this forum who have suffered from traumatic divorces and experiences (in all fairness I did get involved with a BPD and that was pretty brutal).

I know that many of you are looking for LTRs or to find the "quality woman" - (note the quotation). I was led to believe that two principles were absolutely necessary and probably sufficient to keeping marriage together. One is holding your frame (e.g sh*ttests) and having "game" to keep things fresh and alive and keep women in check. I cannot tell you how oversimplified I was looking at things.

I'm going to backtrack a bit now and bring up one of my favorite posts on SS from squirrels:

"The "sh*ttest" that everyone fails"

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134995

To summarize what was written there, squirrels brings up an important observation that you are going to undergo an "active" test. This is the time that you think you won the battle and when the girl hands her keys over to you and says "so what".

If you get past that point that squirrels wrote about (the "so what" situation) and have the girl place 100% trust and confidence in you, things are a lot more complicated. At that point you are the true driver and to make an analogy, you have moved from driving school to the F1 racetracks.

When things are the way they are, nothing is really difficult. It'll be the occasional sh*ttesting, why aren't you paying attention to me questions, getting on your nerves. What really becomes problematic is when you hit the big bumps in life. In the past 8 months, I went through a series of crisis. My girlfriend's father's health failed and was about to pass away, some nut defrauded him and he lost 1/2 of his wealth and was about to go out in the streets, her mother was diagnosed with cancer, my aunt was diagnosed with cancer, my grandmother passed away, I was about to get let go from my job and I absolutely HAD to transition into a field (which i successfully did) where fewer than 5% of graduates with advanced degrees (that I have) from Harvard successfully do, all while still having to put in 80-110+hr workweeks.

The world rattles and shakes like you cannot possibly imagine and I really thought I had it cut out going into this. In that situation, what appeared to be a sh*t test was not. She was not testing me. This was the real deal when she had a nervous meltdown. In that situation she wants reassurance and comfort and as someone who she entrusts you to be the head of the household, you have to keep it together. Can you keep your frame, be calm, and keep your sanity and make the best decisions going forward in the situation? This is something that you have to consider when going into marriage. In my opinion, the male has to be TOUGH to survive in this day and age and keep things together in the family. By no means am I trying to belittle anyone because everyone is at different stages in life, but anyone who asks, "oh did I pass th*s sh*t test" or "how do I respond to this text" or "she's acting a bit cold to me now what's wrong" and starts posting on this forum is nowhere near ready for the brutalities that I see can happen in marriage. And believe me, it's not a matter of IF but WHEN and the you'll encounter such circumstances throughout your life with your partner.

The point I'm trying to make here is that finding the girl is one thing but having the true strength for you to lead as a head of a household during turmoil is completely separate from having game and frame. Consider this advice before settling with a woman.

 

[samspade]

In that situation, what appeared to be a sh*t test was not. She was not testing me. This was the real deal when she had a nervous meltdown. In that situation she wants reassurance and comfort and as someone who she entrusts you to be the head of the household, you have to keep it together. Can you keep your frame, be calm, and keep your sanity and make the best decisions going forward in the situation?

You know that line in This Is Spinal Tap - "It's a fine line between stupid and clever"? Well there's a fine line between a shyt test and a real emotional crisis when it comes to females.

I'm not belittling what happened - quite the opposite. I'm only saying a man has to handle the b.s. and real life problems with equal male strength and aplomb, though your tactics will probably differ. A lot of younger women don't know what real "drama" is and they create it. When it's manufactured is when a guy has to shoot it down or brush it off. When it's real life happening, you gotta be a rock.

Some may think a woman who went through a legit crisis would curtail her shyt testing due to a sense of perspective. Some do, but some don't recover and see drama as normal and become nutjob rollercoasters. (Usually it's the ones who had tumultuous childhoods and/or no daddys.) That kind of emotional craziness has sucked in and destroyed many a Capt. Save-a-Ho.

Anyway OP that's not your case, just putting it out there for others. Though I will say that being strong during turmoil in my opinion, is still part of Game and frame. It's just a different aspect of it, and it's part of LTR game, which involves some gear-shifting.

 

[dasein]

Would it be correct to conclude you want children in the near future? If not, why are you contemplating getting married?

 

[jhl]

Yes I want children (but who knows if my opinion changes any time soon).

The reason I would like to get married is that despite the negative circumstances I've written about, there were a string of positive synergies (almost unexplainable) after we got together. I was able to find a fantastic job and make a near impossible transition into one of the most prestigious fields in the job industry (top management consulting firm). She did little things... Let me give an example. When I was preparing for my interview for the firm, there was one question I knew that was going to be asked but I was having a ridiculously hard time coherently answering the question. She saw the problem and devised an acroynm and did the silliest cheerleading dance in front of me with those acroynms. Guess what? The question came up during the interview and I remembered thanks to her. Without her, would I have gotten the job? Perhaps but maybe I would have been eliminated. The margin of error for getting an offer at a top management consulting company is razor thin. She helps in small ways like that. I can tell you numerous things like this ( a list that goes 20-30 long).

I think this is sufficient for me to convince me that the marriage is well worth it (at least for now). Who knows how things will change later.

 

[Big Nuts]

.......I mean no disrespect, but you don't understand women. I didn't either - it’s natural to misunderstand them since they don't operate the way you were trained to think - logically and rationally.

There is an underlying programming at work here. Let’s talk about some of that programming.

Women live their lives in distinct stages. This is natural, normal and to be expected. When a woman passes from one stage to the next, the difference is staggering. Their old identity dies, and when the metamorphosis is complete, you may not even recognize her as the same girl you once knew.

The girl you meet will be young. She will be in an early life stage. She will behave in ways that seem normal and natural, and culturally validated in her early life stage. She will be fun, like sex and even mould herself to your personality. Sure, testing her is great, and you can, with some success, screen out the really bad ones if you're careful. And that will work--- for a while. You'll get together and start down the natural progression of relationships. First are the courtship and the bonding. These are great times for the both of you, and you will grow to love her. And then you'll commit to her. You might even marry or have a child.

And these, combined with her getting a bit older, will spark the metamorphosis. You have no ****ing idea what you're going to get on the other side. One thing for sure though, she WILL change.

You'll have to change with her or she'll outgrow you. Remember, she is seeing these deep seated changes as natural and normal according to her own life phase and culturally validated behaviour. She won't be able to see your point of view, or even remember how she could have ever lived her old life.

You have absolutely no idea how any particular woman is going to turn out, until you spend 20 years with her, which is 20 years too late.

Another bit of programming. Women are hypergamous, and they are optimizers. Any stable state held long enough will prompt a deep seated feeling of ennui (boredom), of missing out on something......of stagnation. They compare it to living “death”. You on the other hand will think things are just fine. Boy, will you be in for a rude surprise.

The woman you marry is not the one you divorce. They never are. Consider yourself warned.

In general, to successfully share your life in a committed relationship with a woman, you have to truly understand them. And to understand them, you must grasp this fundamental truth:


You must accept the loss of causality in order to understand women. Right now you're doing it backwards. You think if X happens, a woman reacts to X, and therefore her behaviour is predictable. This is wrong.

In reality, they have their own programming and use pretty much any excuse to justify their behaviour. It’s the rationalization hamster they use to be able to make sense of what their higher brains see in the world around them, and match that to what their lower brains tell them.

Relationships, like women have a natural life cycle: courtship, bonding, nesting and the end. Women always push for the next phases. When they get there, their life cycles change. The beginning will be marked by oxytocin bonding. This is powerful and can bring a woman from indifference to trying on your last name, practically overnight. She will be powerfully attracted to you, and she'll think it’s your eyes or lips or voice. It’s HER. This bonding lasts 4-7 years. When it wears off, she will become un-attracted to you. And her reasons will be just as fictitious. In fact, you could be literally the same exact person doing the same exact things as when she was SOOOO into you. The only thing that changed was in her head.

This is natural and normal. What isn’t normal is the legal system that will enable her to fund her next life cycle at your expense. And there won't be a damned thing you can do about it, and you will not be able to predict it. Sure there are red flags, and you'll learn a lot of them here. But you can't KNOW. No one can.

Be careful with the commitments you make. Always remember that she could change and turn on you for reasons that are solely in her own head.

 

[Epimanes]

You have absolutely no idea how any particular woman is going to turn out, until you spend 20 years with her, which is 20 years too late.

Dude.. I been with my wife for 20years.. Happier now than ever. Had a lot of changes in our lives to embrace. Had to agree to stick to our vows even tho we didn't feel like it because of the tensions of life and lack of support. Thought many times grass was greener on the other side only to realize you have to water and weed your own garden if you want it to keep looking good. Finally in a stage in our life where we get more time to be us because our kids are older now.

I am glad I stayed the course through all the times I would have claimed my wife was BPD, crazy and irrational. And she was... But so was I. Both of us bored and bitter for feeling stuck because of kids and daily life. Its part of being parents. If your don't make your wife/marriage your number one priority its going to slip from your hands and you end up growing apart and attracted to false reality that the grass is greener on the other side because the focus is not on eachother but on everything else life is throwing at you which is all just distraction. If you want to have a happy life you BOTH must have eachother as number 1. Kids are 2nd. Not to neglect them but two happy parents is the best thing you can do for your kids.

Ok I'm rambling now... I'm sure you get my point. Pay attention to eachothers needs equally and don't do things neither approves of. Don't lead secret second lives. Be an open book to your spouse. Make sure to always take time for just you two NO MATTER WHAT.

Epi

 

[jhl]

You must accept the loss of causality in order to understand women. Right now you're doing it backwards. You think if X happens, a woman reacts to X, and therefore her behaviour is predictable. This is wrong.

I'm quite confused. You said I'm doing it backwards. Can you please clarify? The point I made is that real life events can be far worse than any sh*ttest you get during the early stages and that you should have the strength and willpower to weather the storm else you risk the relationship falling apart.

I don't see how this fits into the statement you made above. I'm not trying to understand women here nor am I trying to get others to understand how they think.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

As dasein asked: Why get married?

Seriously, why not just live together? At one time there was a stigma to having children outside of marriage, but those days are long gone.

And as Big Nuts said: Women change. Avoid that advice at your own risk.

Please Consider the following if you haven't already:

Do you fully understand that the marriage laws in this country greatly favor women?

Do you know that women initiate approximately 75% of divorces?

Do you know that the courts favor women in cases of child custody and alimony?

Do you know that in a no fault divorce, her morality (she could commit adultery 99 times if she wanted to) has absolutely no bearing on the divorce outcome?

In closing, please do yourself a favor and read this post of mine:

http://sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=200571


And if you still want to get married, I wish you all the best.

-Augustus

 

[dasein]

Yes I want children (but who knows if my opinion changes any time soon).

The reason I would like to get married is that despite the negative circumstances I've written about, there were a string of positive synergies (almost unexplainable) after we got together.

The first sentence is IMO the -only- reason to -ever- get married. None of the events in what follows required marriage to occur, but rather simply being together, which you can do just fine unmarried. Why then do you think the occurence of those things "leads to" marriage in 2014? It doesn't, don't buy the whitewash. Consumerist gynoculture is pro marriage for very obvious reasons I won't list out here; for the first time in history, we don't have to do it to have a viable, happy, socially acceptable life that includes sex. Please reconsider.

Marriage is the -worst- decision a man can make with his life unless he has very definite plans to have children in the next couple of years... very definite. Otherwise it's like taking up crack smoking or heroin as a "hobby."

"She wants it?" Well great, she wants a lifetime commitment? How selfish and unrealistic is that desire of hers in 2014? What she wants is a guarantee, an insurance policy that she is full on aware that society and the law provides her once married. She is also aware that society/the law provides you with nothing... no-thing, all benefit for her, all obligation for you. OF COURSE she is champing at the bit for this primo deal (and what does that say about her level of ethical agency that she is? title pawn stores are more ethical, you want to obligate yourself to the ethical equivalent of a pawnbroker or used car salesman for LIFE? bravo! very wise!). But let me ask you again, what does society provide for you out of getting married? commiseration among other married men, a trivial and shrinking amount of career or social advantage? What guarantee is she willing to give in return? Are any such guarantees on her side enforceable by you or anyone else? Not to get fat and treat you like a wallet appendage thereafter once the kids arrive? Not to bob her hair and go into "mommy mode" for... ever? Not to f-ck some guy she meets out of spite for your "not being around enough" or "not giving her enough attention? or everything she thinks she wants out of life? Not to run you down behind your back to family and friends, even to your face? Are there any societal or legal safeguards in place to insure ANY promises she may make to you? or are all those safeguards slanted her way and illusory for you?

To those who claim to be happily married, good for you, lots of smokers haven't died of smoking related diseases, some never will. Not a good rationale for taking up smoking though. I know some happily married people, they run about 15% of the married couples I know, the rest are walking dead. The men who get out, despite being left homeless and penniless say it's the best thing they ever did. But sure, you'll be the one who "beats the odds." All my friends said "they'd make it work" at the time they made the mistake, including every single one of the 85%.

Only men who have a definitive, well-reasoned, immediate desire for children should ever marry in my professional and personal opinion.

 

[Epimanes]

So... In other words. Unless the woman does 80% of everything while not expecting HER needs to be met and While you act all alpha and don't consider her feelings in anything.. And the going gets tough .. The tough get going?

Hmm

Not a very good plan.

Epi

Edit: as for marriages that don't work out. Its almost always because of unmet needs/neglect where neither spouse knows or cares enough to do what it takes anymore to make it last through tough times. So they grow apart and grow resentful and then meet other people who temporary make them happy because their spouse does not do a good job anymore only to be faced with the same problem again when the going gets tough and they refuse to make eachother a priority simultaniously.

Which brings up another aspect. Do not move in together before marriage. Learn to be the best at meeting eachothers top needs and enjoy eachother fully before comitting. Then and only then should you consider moving in and marrying. This way if its not working out you can always go home.

I think a lot of the advice that comes from many guys here comes from a hardened and jaded heart. To think the worst of all women. Sad reality

 

[dasein]

while not expecting HER needs to be met

1. Don't buy the Maslow/gyno-babble about what "needs" really are. There are only a few needs, food, clothing and shelter on that very short list, the rest are desires. Personally, I like what Siddhartha G. had to say about desires, they cause human suffering. If he was right, do we indulge desire without very good, compelling reasons?

Confusing "needs" with "desires" is one of the neatest smoke and mirror tricks of consumerist/feminist/bureaucratic gynocracy and all its shrinky, hypermedicated, personality disordered minions and media. When her desire for marriage is forwarded as some crucial "need" wrongfully, then the door is open for every little "desire" she has going forward to be magically transformed into a "need." Don't play. Choose reality. Choose truth.

2. Acknowledging and even accommodating certain of a partner's desires has nothing to do with being married or not, and I argue that any rationale for marriage that doesn't entail either the words "children next year," or "I'm so religious that we haven't f-cked yet," or both is a shoddy rationale for marriage. "I get more stuff and backup from the state's gun barrel that you don't get" is not a very convincing rationale for marriage when viewed in the light of day, is it?

Neither love, commitment, respect, fidelity, consistency, nor any other desirable qualities two partners can bestow on each other require marriage. The legitimate rationales for marriage are few and either a) children, b) fundamentalist religious practice. That's it. Any other purported rationale is unreasonable or fallacious. "I want it" in itself is never, never a good reason for doing anything, especially not for -life- no matter who the wanter is or what it is they want.

 

[dasein]

I think a lot of the advice that comes from many guys here comes from a hardened and jaded heart. To think the worst of all women. Sad reality

And the above brands you as likely a woman in disguise here. It's usually feminist women (some femanginas/white knights) IME who perpetuate this common fallacy, to equate -any- criticism of female behavior or institutions favored by or favoring women as "thinking the worst of all women" or even hating women, a sentiment NOT EXPRESSED or implied anywhere in this thread. Condemning marriage as an institution is not an attack on "all women" because "marriage" ~= "women." Likewise, condemning feminism is not an attack on "women" because "feminism" ~= "women." Condemning bad behavior displayed by subsets of women, broad or narrow, is not condemning "women" because a subset ~= the whole. Calling a woman who is insistent on marriage as a "need" unethical in light of the onesided unfairness of the transaction is not calling "all women" unethical.

What's a "sad reality" is that a "fallacy bugbear" shat a black hole into the feminist brain with respect to this particular, common feminist reasoning disconnect, but it is what it is. Stop doing it or just keep looking idiotic and typically feminist, choice is yours.

Your indulgence in this fallacy suggests a common facade I've seen hundreds of times. Take off the mask and at least admit who you really are here.

 

[Epimanes]

I'm not talking about this specific thread.. I'm talking in general. Time and time again guys here say "don't get married or your life is over" mantra. Much of the advice given out on this site suggests you to not care about the woman. To spin plates and show contempt. Sure.. It may apply short term to dating.. But what about marriage? It doesn't work... Everything must be mutually agreed to in order to maintain happiness.

Needs in marriage and LTRs are described as something only someone else can meet and when met makes you feel happy and when unmet makes you feel unhappy. They are as follows in no particular order. All needs are equal and what one person has as a top need should be exchanged in favor of the other persons top need. Become experts at meeting your partners top 5. (For both partners) and the rest don't matter that much or make a difference in that persons love for you

Intimate conversation - creates romantic love
Recreational companionship - creates romantic love
Physical attractivness - initially creates attraction
Affection (non sexual) - creates romantic love
Sexual fulfillment - creates romantic love
Financial support
Family commitment
Openness and honesty
Admiration
Domestic support

 

[jhl]

And the above brands you as likely a woman in disguise here. It's usually feminist women (some femanginas/white knights) IME who perpetuate this common fallacy, to equate -any- criticism of female behavior or institutions favored by or favoring women as "thinking the worst of all women" or even hating women, a sentiment NOT EXPRESSED or implied anywhere in this thread. Condemning marriage as an institution is not an attack on "all women" because "marriage" ~= "women." Likewise, condemning feminism is not an attack on "women" because "feminism" ~= "women." Condemning bad behavior displayed by subsets of women, broad or narrow, is not condemning "women" because a subset ~= the whole. Calling a woman who is insistent on marriage as a "need" unethical in light of the onesided unfairness of the transaction is not calling "all women" unethical.

I am truly sorry that a "fallacy bugbear" shat a black hole into the feminist brain with respect to this particular, common feminist reasoning disconnect, but it is what it is. Stop doing it or just keep looking idiotic, choice is yours.

Your indulgence in this fallacy suggests a common facade I've seen hundreds of times. Take off the mask and at least admit who you really are here.

Dasein. Please calm down. I can only grasp what you have gone through based on the short post you made and I understand that you have every good intention of warning people like myself who are thinking of tying the knot. I'm very well aware of the situation and I understand all repercussions. Without going into too much detail, the odds are not 50/50 for me. My gf and I were not raised in the Western Hemisphere and have cultural norms (at least for now) that to a degree put Western hypergamy in check.

Again, the point of this thread never was about my getting advice from others as to whether or not I should marry. I think it's very clear from my post so I would appreciate if we could all get along and stick to the topic at hand. Thanks everyone.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Epimanes is the resident mangina, defender of the institution of marriage on this site.

He also accuses posters of saying things they haven't said.

-Augustus-

 

[Epimanes]

Yeah.. [sarcasm] I accuse people of saying shyt they didn't all the time [/sarcasm]...Sure augustus... Whatever you say buddy. Haha.

I am the defender of marriage. I agree. Somebody has to do it. Don't see many guys here supporting the subject.

 

[Big Nuts]

Our society is now too heavily tilted towards the criminalization of the male identity, that there is no social, legal, or practical negative consequence for women who lie about abuse, violence, threats, or sexual abuse, or who use the law as a tool to denude men of their property, careers, homes, and children.

A man entering a relationship with a women does so on the HOPE and TRUST that she will not exercise her social, legal, and political power to destroy him. This hope is founded on nothing but optimism, as there is no longer any deterrent to women to casually and easily destroy a man for profit, or sport, or simple whimsy.

Marriage is dead, feminism killed it and our society continues excruciatingly.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

Big nuts: Could not have stated it any better.

-Augustus-

 

[Epimanes]

I totally understand your points of view and respect them because they came to you through your own personal experiences and read others experiences here to confirm it even more. It was well said.

Compatability can be created if both are willing participants.

What we see also depends on what we are looking for.

Epi

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear Big Nuts,
"You have absolutely no idea how any particular woman is going to turn out, until you spend 20 years with her, which is 20 years too late."...
Sorry Big Nuts...That is not always right either...There needs to be a Sybioticism in a relationship for it to last...probably some mutual superiority, difficult to separate the two!...As you grow older you keep changing there are many watershed years....One of you may retire,Children leave home,major illness,Menopause....Major changes occur with patience the problems can be overcome,but often they are intractable...You can never completely rely on a relationship.

Example 1:I was married 23 Years two kids,kids grew up,wife became obsessed with Yoga,increasingly came to enjoy the company of like minded Women...Eventually flew the coop,jumped over the fence to enjoy a Lesbian Life Style..

Example2:Mate a half Colenal in the Army...Married 37 years...he retired,they went on a six month round Australia Caravan Holiday ... came back and divorced...Why?....Well he said for 37 years they had not really seen a lot of each other it was work,eat,fvuck,watch a bit of Telly...They neither had realised how the other had changed..

Example 3&4:Essentially similar Bush Walking Mates...both retired,one at 62 the other at 65 within two years one was told, out of the Blue by his wife of 42 years,she was leaving and had commenced Divorce Proceedings...the second was told again in a complete surprise move...I have seen a Soliciter,the House which She was joint owner of,was being placed on the Market in the next week,she was under instruction from her Lawyer to tell him to get his things and go...... should he dig in, documented evidence would be given to Police by her lawyers of his Mental cruelty,and he would be removed...My Mate is one of the meekest,mildest, kindest Old English Gentlemen you could meet,spends his days listening to classical music or playing his flute...He was absolutely gob slapped,had never opened a can of beans,washed a shirt in his life..I took him in and put a roof over his head...

One Thing is for Bluddy sure,no Woman will be threatening my Freedom ever again!