Massive Shoulders

search1ng

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Alright,

Bloody shoulders right?

Every other part of my body is coming along nicely.

I'm 5'8 - 78kg. 11% bf.

going to try to get to 8% in the next few months w/e not important.

Whats important are my shoulder and their lack of growth - it is seriously starting to negatively impact the rest of my workouts.

So here's how I'd usually hit them,

military press warm up for 2-3 sets.
military press 4 x 8
shoulder press 4 x 8
rear delt cable pull 4 x 10
rear delt raises 4 x 10
side raises 4 x 10
shrugs 4 x 10

Then if i have time I'll do other variations of side raises.

Now, should i throw all that out the window and just go 4 x 5-6 heavy? Is it a matter of weight? I'm military pressing 60kg and dumbell shoulder pressing 32kg's.

Just go heavier for more size?

edit: just to clarify it's usually lower reps for strength and a little higher for size right? Ugh.
 

Colossus

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Well it's certainly not from lack of volume. Shoulders may be a slow-growing group for you.

I recommend standing military (aka overhead press), STRICT, for 10 sets of 10-3 reps. Pyramid up, finish with a hard triple. Then do a rear delt movement and call it a day. Do this for 3 months or until you are no longer able to add weight to the bar each week.
 

search1ng

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Thanks Collossus, I'll give that a shot... Going to have to make sure I go hardcore on the military to make sure I'm exhausted by the end.

Jariel, diet wise I was bulking, now I guess I'm maintaining. I was going to start cutting but I still want bigger shoulders - they're such an annoyingly hard group to grow for me.

On a side note, I was thinking of doing what 'the bulking guide,' in the vault says.

Basically train heavy 4 sets of 4 - 8.
If i can do 8 reps, it's too light so i go heavier. I'll do
4x4 standing military
4x4 db shoulder press
4x4 rear
4x4 rear raises
4x4 side db raise
4x4 shrugs/super-set 4x8 side raise with bb.
 

Quiksilver

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Colossus said:
I recommend standing military (aka overhead press), STRICT, for 10 sets of 10-3 reps
Yep ... 1 second eccentric, 4 second concentric, 0 second pause top and bottom. >50 seconds per set, 3 minute rest between sets.
 

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EFFORT

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Your shoulders are probably where they should be for 78kg, you just need to add mass overall. Post up your diet.
 

Espi

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search1ng said:
Thanks Collossus, I'll give that a shot... Going to have to make sure I go hardcore on the military to make sure I'm exhausted by the end.

Jariel, diet wise I was bulking, now I guess I'm maintaining. I was going to start cutting but I still want bigger shoulders - they're such an annoyingly hard group to grow for me.

On a side note, I was thinking of doing what 'the bulking guide,' in the vault says.

Basically train heavy 4 sets of 4 - 8.
If i can do 8 reps, it's too light so i go heavier. I'll do
4x4 standing military
4x4 db shoulder press
4x4 rear
4x4 rear raises
4x4 side db raise
4x4 shrugs/super-set 4x8 side raise with bb.

Everyone has different tolerances when it comes to volume, so if you get results from the above, then obviously stick with it. My opinion is that you're doing too many sets. Shoulders are a smaller muscle group, and IMO, don't need as many sets compared to back, legs, and chest. I would keep the same types of movements but lower the total number of sets. 16 sets MAX is what I do for shoulders. Instead of doing 8 sets of presses, alternate standing and sitting presses every other workout. 4 sets overhead presses total per workout, not 8. Also 4 sets for rear shoulders instead of 8. And, I'm another one who wants to see your diet, as that will likely take you a longer way toward adding muscle to your frame, much more than doing high volume sets, in my opinion.
 
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search1ng

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Alright, I'll post my diet up tomorrow... exam results for a major exam i had came out today and I'm too pu55y to find out what I got. Can't really think about anything atm

Went and saw my score, am actually pretty happy - Not what i *wanted* but a pretty decent score nonetheless.

search1ng's diet;

meal 1
-x3 eggs
-whole Tomato (Or celery, other random vege's)
-handful of carbs (x2 slices of bread/brown rice, etc.)

meal 2
-Protein shake (ON gold standard 100% Whey
-Fruit

meal 3
-250g Tuna/other source of protein (Turkey/Fish/etc)
-Vegetables (around 1 cup)
-handful of carbs

meal 4
-Red Meat (Kangaroo/beef, etc)
-Vegetables (Broccoli/salad, etc)
-handful of carbs (Brown rice/bread, etc)

meal 5
-Protein Shake
-fruit

Meal 4 and 5 switch around depending on when I've been to the gym. I drink the shake straight after the workout.
Supps: ON gold standard 100% whey, mesomorph pre-workout complex, multi-vitamin, fish-oil, Xtend BCAA.

The occasional cheat meal here and there, I might partake in some extra carbs as well occasionally, but that's the standard diet I have.
 
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Fuglydude

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Diet looks reasonable although I'd take out the fruit w/ meal 5 and add in some almonds.

Why are you trying to actively build when you're on a cutting diet? Packing up large muscles, like those in the upper back takes lots of heavy duty low GI carbs, like I'm talking 1/2 lb of oatmeal a day range, plus tons of red meat, eggs, etc. Why would you try to be cutting and still wanna get jacked delts? If you have developed delts, they'll look awesome and striated once you're in the 7-8% range.

I'm fairly naturally gifted when it comes to shoulder width and taper genetics... My "secret" however, has always been developing a big wide upper back. Always remember that having wide "massive shoulders" and the classic V-taper is mostly about having a big wide upper back. A strong upper back can be built with heavy ass deadlifts, weight pull ups, rows/kroc rows, and basically tons of heavy pulling movements. Never neglect back work when it comes to developing "massive shoulders and great v-taper".

As far as training shoulders go, if you have no issues with rotator cuffs, then don't be afraid to train them w/ high intensity. One of my favs was to do heavy-ish military press followed immediately by lateral/anterior or posterior raises. Another weird and wacky exercise that I've been experimenting with for the past few months is the smith machine upright row... its hard to get a feel for it, but I like the upper back pump that I get.

Lots of things to consider man. Always remember that training intensity, good diet/rest are crucial with all aspects of training, including delts/upper back.
 

Espi

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I would add on a 6th meal to that diet (cottage cheese and veggies right before bed) and up the complex carbs in the earlier meals. You're likely not gonna add any muscle with that current diet, though it is solid. It just seems a little bit too light for what you're trying to do. Adding in some brown rice and old-fashioned oatmeal and another liberal dose or protein in the 6th meal will help you add some mass.
 

search1ng

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250g's of Tuna is actually really easy to eat - you know those big ass cans. Just watch some Tv or Youtube and eat without thinking, haha.

Thanks for the replies. I've switched up my workout to lift fcking heavy again. I was in the 8+ range for a while but I'm lifting at 4-8 again and honestly, it feels pretty awesome.

Also, I've always lifted hardcore when it comes to back. Back when i first started training i read on these forums that the back and legs were like the most important sh1t, ever. So since then I've been hauling ass when it comes to those muscles.

On a side note, do i really have to eat so much protein? I kind of want to slowly lean bulk. I know it takes forever but cutting is such a fcking pain and something i find very hard to do.

btw, how much cottage cheese should i eat in the evening? If its just for the casein, i might buy ON's casein supp.
 

Fuglydude

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What are you doing for back?

How much are you deadlifting? Aim for a 2.5-2.75 x BW 1 RM if you're < 200 lbs. Also do heavy weight pull ups, and a large volume of different variation pull ups. I also really like doing one arm rows and kroc rows. Do give you an idea at my strength peak at 180 lb bodyweight I was pulling around 470 (would have been higher with a real powerlifting bar), doing pull ups w/ 90-100 lbs around my waist for reps, and doing kroc rows w/ 100-110 lb dumbells, which is actually quite weak. If you want serious back numbers look at some of the shiit guys like Colossus and Jitter do! Do whatever you gotta do to beat up your upper back!

Powercleans and dumbell snatches are also a couple of favorites! Aim for 50-60% BW for your dumbell snatches, and 1.25-1.5x BW for your 1 RM powerclean. I found doing triples w/ around 100-110% BW for powercleans is great. I'm around 190, so 205-215 lbs x 3 feels awesome! Just make sure you really explode and pull and hit everything all at once! I think a good powerclean is a fantastic upper back builder.
 

search1ng

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My typical back session looks like this

Chin-ups (palms facing away)
Dead-lifts
Upright Row
Seated Row
shrugs

I do 4-5 sets of each, ranging from 4-10 reps. (Going to start going heavier though 4-8 reps)

I weigh 78kg at the moment
1MR dead-lift was 170kg

for chins I have 20kg's around my waist and can manage 4 clean, 2 assisted (6 reps).

Is the powerclean the dead-lift+standing military press motion? Cause I occasionally do them at 70kg's 4x6
 

Mr.Positive

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Colossus said:
Well it's certainly not from lack of volume. Shoulders may be a slow-growing group for you.

I recommend standing military (aka overhead press), STRICT, for 10 sets of 10-3 reps. Pyramid up, finish with a hard triple. Then do a rear delt movement and call it a day. Do this for 3 months or until you are no longer able to add weight to the bar each week.
This is what I've been doing, but also dips at the end of the workout too.

I heartily recommend the standing military press as well. It is by far, the best shoulder exercise there is, imo. It's almost as addicting as the deadlift too.

Heavy weight with standing military press = big shoulders. I've been doing this lift for the past couple of months and see a big difference, strengthwise.

EDIT: Here's a good video from Rippetoe on the press..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJFjYyA40ss
 

speed dawg

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In my experience when I've had a lagging bodypart, I'll do some type of plyometric or olympic power lift to get it in gear. For shoulders, I recommend doing some jerks, maybe 3 sets of 5 or so, to push through that plateau.

Not sure about all this diet crap. If the rest of your body is growing nicely, seems to me that you're eating right, just need a different approach to working the bodypart.
 
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