Life

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by Alicorn
Oh the irony of a Cristian Fundamentalist saying that.

Try not to slam any airplanes into buildings on your way to church!

What is it that makes what biblebelt said radical, Alicorn?

instead of saying irony, why don't you call it what you mean it as, hypocracy?

Why is it when a Christian speaks up, he's labeled as a fundamentalist? maybe being a fundamentalist isn't such a bad thing, because at least they are respected by some and remembered for their actions, unlike people like you Alicorn?

And no, I am not saying this in regards to Muslim fundamentalism, but your Christian "fundamentalism".

dumba$$.

 

[whistler]

Originally posted by wavejams007
Finally, someone to give an alternative to the atheism/agnosticism suggested.

I think that it isn't really the religion, but the worldview you want to investigate first. I am going to use Sire's "Universe Next Door." Most of the world's religions, such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and the ancient religions, such as the roman and greek Gods belong to the worldview of Theism. This intails that 1. there is a God, 2. He is personal 3. God is good 4. The universe is an open system that is tinkered with from the outside. 5. there is a defined sytem of morals and beliefs, such as books likethe bible and the Quran. There ar other aspects to these worldviews as well, but I don' feel like writing them all.

The next one that is around today is naturalism. In this one, there is no God, the creationist theory is challanged, with evolution in the head, and reason above everything.

Then there is nihilism, a denial of everything, even of your own existence.

After that, there is existentialism, shich is similar to nihilism, but you decide to give purpose to something or someone.

Then there is pantheistic monism, which is Buddhaism, Hinduism and all that, where everything is one, and everything goes in the same direction, this includes new age.

Then there is postmodernism, which throws out all other worldviews, and bases everything on reason and the here and now.

There is more to be said on all of this, so any questions, please ask.

Hm. Remember transcendentalism?

I like that one. It ties self-integrity, God, morality, and open-minded curiosity all into one.

I also like the Einsteinian/Spinozan take...

God is essentially the immmutable (at the time at least) rules that govern the universe.

My point is, you can have God and you can have a belief system that makes sense (vs a 10,000 year old earth, a sun that sleeps in a tabernacle, non-conflicting creation stories, etc.). It's when that version of God stops seeming like the one in the Bible that people get nervous. Note that the great thinkers of theology were not fundamentalists. They (e.g., Aguinas) pushed some rational and fascinating positions... and I think they were heading somewhere positive. Alas...

 

[Alicorn]

Originally posted by wavejams007
What is it that makes what biblebelt said radical, Alicorn?

instead of saying irony, why don't you call it what you mean it as, hypocracy?

Why is it when a Christian speaks up, he's labeled as a fundamentalist? maybe being a fundamentalist isn't such a bad thing, because at least they are respected by some and remembered for their actions, unlike people like you Alicorn?

And no, I am not saying this in regards to Muslim fundamentalism, but your Christian "fundamentalism".

dumba$$.

Maybe it's because you sickos are the reason the world is ****ed up. No one would have killed 3000 Americans on 9/11 if they didn't believe in a fairy tale called "Gawd".

Christians did the same thing with the Crusades and again in modern times by covering up pedophile priests. They violate the innocent and then wrap themselves in god.

Religious benevolence is as false as your faith: in your hearts you dream yourselves our masters.

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by Bible_Belt

Society has to share some values in order to resolve disputes, or else every conflict turns into might-makes-right.

Your point being? you speak as though there is something wrong about might-makes-right.

All you have demonstrated so far is that the most-popular religions all decry the practice. There is still a very large sum of people who recognize the values of these religions, yet do not embrace them.

Don't attempt to speak for everybody; don't attempt to prove to others that this basic piece of your own ideology surely has to apply to everyone else.







by the way, I've been meaning to get a christian to explain the following:

"those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them infront of me" - Jesus christ (luke 19:27)

 

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by Alicorn
Maybe it's because you sickos are the reason the world is ****ed up. No one would have killed 3000 Americans on 9/11 if they didn't believe in a fairy tale called "Gawd".

Christians did the same thing with the Crusades and again in modern times by covering up pedophile priests. They violate the innocent and then wrap themselves in god.

Religious benevolence is as false as your faith: in your hearts you dream yourselves our masters.

Even if America was an Atheist nation, Americans would have died because they are infidels, or "unbelievers." And the radicals that attacke on 9/11 would have killed out of hate for American principles.

As to your last statement, it is sad but true that some hypocritical Christians hold themselves as better than everyone else, but that is not everyone, and you can't generalize.

The crusades were a responce to muslim expansion. And why did they need to be so violent? You atheists should know. Survival of the fittest. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Kill or be killed.

The pedaphile priest thing was a scandalous thing, but again, this doesn't give anybody the right to generalize.

And of course, it is also noticable that whenever a natural disaster occurs, Christians are almost always the first to help, while muslims conclude that the people suffering deserved the "punishment" and athiests conclude that most definitely the Christians are not over to help but to preach, while all the while a good amount of Athiests do nothing.

 

[whistler]

Originally posted by piranha45
by the way, I've been meaning to get a christian to explain the following:

"those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them infront of me" - Jesus christ (luke 19:27)

Originally posted by wavejams007
The crusades were a responce to muslim expansion. And why did they need to be so violent? You atheists should know. Survival of the fittest. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Kill or be killed.

I find reading each other's posts helps the conversation flow better.

 

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by piranha45


by the way, I've been meaning to get a christian to explain the following:

"those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them infront of me" - Jesus christ (luke 19:27)

it would be nice if you wouldn't take this quote out of context, or supply the context to people who don't have a bible handy.

This was from a parable. The king was apply what any king would do in light of treason and threat to the kingdom.

The delegation that he was ordering to be killed represents those that have hard hearts towards God, and are in ful rebellion towards him, and complete malevolent motives. This is different from islams's Allah because God is personal and Good. He gives every chance to repent.

Of course, I doubt I will change your opinon or stop you from trying to trip Christians up. If you really wanted to know the asnwer, you could check the other Gospels and find the parallel stories, and you could also try and understand things in context.

 

[piranha45]

And of course, it is also noticable that whenever a natural disaster occurs, Christians are almost always the first to help, while muslims conclude that the people suffering deserved the "punishment" and athiests conclude that most definitely the Christians are not over to help but to preach, while all the while a good amount of Athiests do nothing. [/B]

Wow, what a joke of an argument. "Most Christians try to help, while some atheists don't try to help". Tell me, does EVERY christian try to help? can it not be argued that "a good amount of Christians do nothing", too?

 

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by piranha45
Wow, what a joke of an argument. "Most Christians try to help, while some atheists don't try to help". Tell me, does EVERY christian try to help? can it not be argued that "a good amount of Christians do nothing", too?

To be honest, you do have a point, some Christian do nothing, but in proportion of athiests and Christians who help, christians are the majority.

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by wavejams007
To be honest, you do have a point, some Christian do nothing, but in proportion of athiests and Christians who help, christians are the majority.

And WHERE are your statistics to back this up? it sounds to me like you're trying to stereotype atheists as selfish pricks.

 

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by piranha45
And WHERE are your statistics to back this up? it sounds to me like you're trying to stereotype atheists as selfish pricks.

For what do Athiests do anything "benevolent" then for glory of self in the end?

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by wavejams007


Of course, I doubt I will change your opinon or stop you from trying to trip Christians up. If you really wanted to know the asnwer, you could check the other Gospels and find the parallel stories, and you could also try and understand things in context.

Thanks for explaining it. I'd like to make mention that I'm not trying to trip christians up in this thread; im tripping up faulty arguments , that happen to be made by christians.

 

[wavejams007]

Actually, IN my las post on this thread, I said, For what do Athiests do anything "benevolent" then for glory of self in the end?. I generalized badly. I actually should have said a lot of thiests. To be honest though, A lot of Christians do the same thing.

It is the hypocracy of some Christians that tarnishes the rest of us.

 

[Visceral]

Originally posted by piranha45
Your point being? you speak as though there is something wrong about might-makes-right.

I'm agnostic and I still think "might makes right" is a terrible idea and I cannot understand why others are so eager to not only believe in it but put it into practice.

by the way, I've been meaning to get a christian to explain the following:

"those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them infront of me" - Jesus christ (luke 19:27)

I had a born-again Christian once tell me that God allows there to be evil and suffering in the world so that people will turn to God and love him. I told the guy that that was the most horrible thing I'd ever heard and that I felt sorry for him that he couldn't understand how sick and wrong that was. I asked him why God would do this and all he could tell me is "Because God is good." Good luck getting a straight answer out of a Christian. These people don't think; instead, they just read the Bible and do what it and Pat Robertson tell them to do.

I think that we all create God in our own image, and that this violent, racist, homophobic, and totalitarian God is really just a reflection of the people who believe in him, their desire to be special, to live in a world that suits and pleases them, and to bend all others to their will.

As for the materialistic and power-hungry individuals who run religion, their behavior is just as human as that of their followers - self-interest. They simply use religion to conceal or justify what they do. Karl Marx said that "Religion is the opiate of the masses", the means by which the people are deluded and oppressed by their rulers.

There's an element of immaturity in religious thought: the black-and-white thinking, the unwillingness to make hard choices, the unwillingness to make one's own way in life, the need for love, the need to be provided for, the need for reward, the need for all others to do things their way, etc. This is how young children think and act.

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by wavejams007
For what do Athiests do anything "benevolent" then for glory of self in the end?

HOLY CRAP. You sir, are a bigot.

This guy automatically assumes that refusal to accept that which doesn't lie in scientific evidence, to be an admission of BLATANT SELFISHNESS. You assume atheists are incapable of sympathy/pity/compassion? wow...

 

[whistler]

Originally posted by Visceral
There's an element of immaturity in religious thought: the black-and-white thinking, the unwillingness to make hard choices, the unwillingness to make one's own way in life, the need for love, the need to be provided for, the need for reward, the need for all others to do things their way, etc. This is how young children think and act.

It's blunt. But it's hard to refute.

 

[wavejams007]

Originally posted by wavejams007
Actually, IN my las post on this thread, I said, For what do Athiests do anything "benevolent" then for glory of self in the end?. I generalized badly. I actually should have said a lot of thiests. To be honest though, A lot of Christians do the same thing.

It is the hypocracy of some Christians that tarnishes the rest of us.

yo fish, did you not read this post?

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by Visceral
I'm agnostic and I still think "might makes right" is a terrible idea and I cannot understand why others are so eager to not only believe in it but put it into practice.

Well, for one thing, you realize the value of evolution, which essentially subscribes to a form of that philosophy? I mean obviously we wouldn't be around otherwise...

of course you recognize the contemporary cultural PRACTICALITY of disavowing "might-makes-right", but does that mean Science has introduced something about human morals as a Natural Law of the Universe?

 

[piranha45]

Originally posted by wavejams007
yo fish, did you not read this post?

so you are abandoning your "To be honest, you do have a point, some Christian do nothing, but in proportion of athiests and Christians who help, christians are the majority." argument. OK.

So keep in mind that you abandoned it, the next time you try to contest someone about religious affiliation, unless you come across valid evidence showing otherwise.

 

[Visceral]

Originally posted by piranha45
Well, for one thing, you realize the value of evolution, which essentially subscribes to a form of that philosophy? I mean obviously we wouldn't be around otherwise...

I personally owe my existence to evolution's increasingly weakened hold on humanity, or else I doubt that I would have survived long, if I had been born at all.

of course you recognize the contemporary cultural PRACTICALITY of disavowing "might-makes-right", but does that mean Science has introduced something about human morals as a Natural Law of the Universe?

Science doesn't and can't deal with any phenomenon that cannot be measured and with any idea that cannot be tested and potentially disproven. Science can recognize the cause-and-effect relationships between behavior, the environment, and other human beings, but it cannot pass judgment on them beyond to say that a given behavior in a given situation either does or does not lead to a particular result.