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- Thread starter backbreaker
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I personally don't have debts other than my house (and that is an investment). Vehicles paid off. Credit cards paid off. Sure, I have some minor College Loan debts that can be paid off ANY time I wish...but they are guarrantee so I rather paid them monthly. And I have been like this for YEARS.Vulpine said:
My point is...you don't have to make $300K to be debt free. All you have too do is manage money smartly.
Furthermore, if you have a LOT of debts making let's say $100K or even $70K per year. I can assure you that you would have as much or even more debt making $300K. Because in this case, managing the money smartly might be the issue.
Vulpine
Master Don Juan
Rudra said:
See? And I bet Rudra understands the difference between "living within your means" and "being a slave to your lifestyle". There is also a difference between "life of lavish and frivolity" and "comfortable lifestyle".
5 years at a crap job would EASILY afford a person with a comfortable lifestyle for the rest of their lives.
Whether or not a person could actually have the persistance and control to stay on course... that's another story.
I should have posted that it is a fact that your BEST chance for upward mobility is getting an education beyond highschool. MOST people who don't go to college fall into the working class/working poor. MOST people who get a degree are middle class. If you get a degree at a prestigious university you are MORE likely to be upper middle class. About 1% of people in the US are rich and the VAST MAJORITY of those rich folks went to the best colleges/universities in the country OR the money was inherited from someone who did. Your chances of being rich are pretty darn rare. Your chances of being upper middle class aren't all that great, either. Middle class isn't even where the majority of people fall. Most people in the US fall into the working class. If you don't go to college your chances of being as successful as everyone on here wants to be is virtually zip, zero and nil. The ones who do well without college do so with a combination of being in the right place at the right time, dumb luck and extremely hard work.
And I agree that going to college to do something you hate is foolish. Don't ever go FOR something you don't really want to do. Find a way to make the most money you can doing something you LOVE. If there isn't a college program specifically for that...there WILL be something that will apply to what you want to do that will make you better at it and more effective. Even if you don't care for the program itself...if it applies to what you DO want to do then toughing it out is appropriate.
Now...it is almost universal (aside from a few exceptions here and there) that people who go to college make more money than people who don't go to college.
About mechanics...most work for other people and don't make $200,000 a year. The business owner that went to college for Business is probably making at least that much, though. One of my best friends' husband is a mechanic and they have 4 kids. He makes $15 an hour. In order to make more he would have to go to school and be certified.
And I agree that going to college to do something you hate is foolish. Don't ever go FOR something you don't really want to do. Find a way to make the most money you can doing something you LOVE. If there isn't a college program specifically for that...there WILL be something that will apply to what you want to do that will make you better at it and more effective. Even if you don't care for the program itself...if it applies to what you DO want to do then toughing it out is appropriate.
Now...it is almost universal (aside from a few exceptions here and there) that people who go to college make more money than people who don't go to college.
About mechanics...most work for other people and don't make $200,000 a year. The business owner that went to college for Business is probably making at least that much, though. One of my best friends' husband is a mechanic and they have 4 kids. He makes $15 an hour. In order to make more he would have to go to school and be certified.
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
just shut up while you are ahead, and I hate to say that because I respect you, but you talk without thinking sometimes wyldfire
1 out of 4 of our presidents don't have a college education. 3 of the top 4 riches people in the country don't have a college education. the most important thing is an education. not necessarly from college. if you strive to learn, put the time in, you will get where you want to go with hard work. I never had to pay someone (college) to make me sit all day and read.. i like to learn and have no problem going using my book card when need be.
what you should have said, and it might have been what you were trying to say, is that if you don't go to college, the odds are not in your favor.. you had a damn good point until that last sentence. most people don't go to college because they arne't very smart or becuase they don't want to better themsleves, and they are lazy.
backbreaker...my Sociology class covered this stuff back in February. As I said...there are exceptions...but most people aren't exceptions. I agree that reading and education yourself outside of college improves your life greatly. However, unless you are able to start your own business you're going to have to work for someone else. Employers will hire someone with a college degree over someone without one and they will pay someone with a degree more money. That's just the way it is and to say otherwise would be lying. It really sucks that your family basically turned their backs on you because you wouldn't go to college...that was wrong. That being said...they want you to go to college because they love you and want you to have a better life than they have. Dude...don't let that experience turn you off to going to school. It's a wonderful experience and there are colleges at all different levels.backbreaker said:
Out of curiosity...what is it that you are doing?
As a graduate from University (undergrad and graduate) and as an expert in my field (which is science)... I can assure you one thing...just because a Professor says something in class or just because somebody wrote about it...if it is NOT hard science (e.g. if cannot be proven by scientific laws), then you have to take it with a grain of salt. It is better if you do the research and reach your own conclusions. Your OWN conclusions.Wyldfire said:
I have found out throughout the years that many professors have been wrong. Many books have been proven wrong. And many times what one professor says in a Sociology class (a class that I have also taken by the way)...other professor says the opposite in another sociology class. It is called differ opinions.
Argue a point...base on your RESEARCH and base on EXPERIMENTS (even if done by others). Never argue based on what your professor (unless he is Internationally recognized as an expert in the field and has years of research - e.g. see "Experiments" above) has stated.
Note: Even with all my degrees and expertise... I has been proven wrong in the past.
Most of those peoples go to the "best" colleges/universities in the country. But it is NOT based on skills or intelligence. It is because their parents went there or because of the last name they have (e.g. Bush, Clinton, etc.).
Many of them...would have NEVER be accepted under any other circunstances.
The "best" colleges today are becoming a name.
Vulpine
Master Don Juan
Wyldfire said:
And, you have to also add to that employers will hire people with a degree regardless of it's relevance to the position over someone without. Which, and I have to say this so you know, which proves that people are completely ignorant about the whole issue.
Take yourself, for example, Riledcrier. You are jumping up and down that "the degree makes the man". You cite percenages and likelihoods and rah rah rah... do you believe it? Do you? If you do, then you MUST admit that it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and nothing more. It's "popular to favor those with a degree", not necessarily better. It's the "buddy-buddy" club, not a better choice.
Will a person with a degree in basket weaving and a 70 I.Q. do better as a mechanic than a person with 140 I.Q. who has been doing it for 5 years without having a degree?
You are arguing that basket weavers are better mechanics than mechanics. The percentages and likelihoods you cite argue the same. And, when employers hear these ridiculous statistics that prove nothing, they hire people with degrees, and the stupidity continues.
"Oh, but studies have been done... "
Right, studies of numbers.
And everyone knows that statistics and numbers can be bent and swayed to proove whatever you want them to proove.
Tell me, do you think that "in these studies" they factored in the statistics where employers turned down applicants with degrees in favor of someone with experience? Do you think they factored in situations where employers turned away applicants with degrees because they would demand more money? Did they factor in situations where only people with degrees applied for the positions? No, of course they didn't factor those in as relevant to the study. No, no, THOSE didn't make any sense and would confuse the results. The statistic is "Of those jobs where both degreed and non-degreed applicants applied, those persons with degrees are more likely to get hired".
See? You are reading EVERYTHING else into a very specific statistic.
The same thing applies to "studies of successful people". The statistic is "of those people with $X, X% have a degree". Whoopity doo - if you measure success with a dollar sign. Which you must. How many of those "successful $X" people are happy? Married? Have kids? Spend their entire day doing whatever they want? Yep. You can't study that stuff because THOSE people are off the radar - they're gone. They made their cash and disappeared.
The TRUTH is, many stupid people go off to college and remain stupid after graduation. College doesn't increase IQ's.
If you can't agree, then you are the very proof that counters your own arguement, Riledcrier.
The whole "people with a college degree" thing is an urban legend. It's a "look at me, I'm so great because uh... (oh crap I'm $250,000 in debt), uh... because I got this piece of paper that says so. (Well, I guess that $250,000 debt was worth the bragging rights at least.)"
Ridiculous.
Not fact, hype.
thegenerousjew
Don Juan
I dunno if any ones read this book by Po Bronson "What should I do with my Life."
He basically went around the world talking to people about their jobs etc. From all sorts of backgrounds including a lot of people who followed their "passion"
His conclusions were as follows
The ones following their passions wisely were happy.
Interestingly enough he spoke to a bunch of extremely well paid guys, people who weren't happy with their jobs but were earning too much to walk away. He noticed something in common between all of them. Even though a lot of them claimed that they were only working so that they could make a **** load of money before saving enough to quit their job and then follow their dreams, none of them ever did.
None of them had the balls to walk away from the high paying job to do what they really wanted. No matter how much they earned it was quite enough to free them.
Once you start earning a lot you end up spending more, taking on more financial obligations that tie you down and prevent you from walking away when you want to.
Follow our passions now when we're young and can afford to lose and walk away and we'll never say the following words on our deathbed
"If only..."
Hope it helps backbreaker.
I could go on but I'm really sleepy... Maybe I'll pipe in later in the morning after the 3 of you shout some more at each other.
He basically went around the world talking to people about their jobs etc. From all sorts of backgrounds including a lot of people who followed their "passion"
His conclusions were as follows
The ones following their passions wisely were happy.
Interestingly enough he spoke to a bunch of extremely well paid guys, people who weren't happy with their jobs but were earning too much to walk away. He noticed something in common between all of them. Even though a lot of them claimed that they were only working so that they could make a **** load of money before saving enough to quit their job and then follow their dreams, none of them ever did.
None of them had the balls to walk away from the high paying job to do what they really wanted. No matter how much they earned it was quite enough to free them.
Once you start earning a lot you end up spending more, taking on more financial obligations that tie you down and prevent you from walking away when you want to.
Follow our passions now when we're young and can afford to lose and walk away and we'll never say the following words on our deathbed
"If only..."
Hope it helps backbreaker.
I could go on but I'm really sleepy... Maybe I'll pipe in later in the morning after the 3 of you shout some more at each other.
backbreaker
Master Don Juan
one girl I'm sorta seeing is 33 and is STILL paying off her college debt.. makes pretty good money.. about 70k a year, but lives well below what you think she would be able to becuse of the college debt umong other things
My entire rational for skipping college was, If I am going to F up, let me do it while I am still young, I can always go back... I didn't F up, so I'm not going and it worked out. if I realized I made a mistake and I NEEDED college, i would go and would pay myself if need be.
I have a friend, actually one of my two best friends, who has borrowed about 70k for college, and is sitll in college so he won't hav eto start paying back his debts yet.
My aunt is... I want to say 41 and is still paying on a loan for college she took out when she was 22 and didn't finish school because of her kids.
college more than anything, is a business. colleges don't get paid if you figure out it's in your best interest not to go. not saying it's NOT.. it wasn't in my case and I had a free ride but don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.. if it's your ambitions to be a doctor.. I will walk you to the front door... but if you want to be a computer engineer... please get real. I'm not spending upwards of 50k to learn a trade that can be learned in a couple of years, if that by taking time and downloading free crap off the internet, buying some old pcs and practice networking them, which is exaclty how I learned how to work on pcs and macs
My entire rational for skipping college was, If I am going to F up, let me do it while I am still young, I can always go back... I didn't F up, so I'm not going and it worked out. if I realized I made a mistake and I NEEDED college, i would go and would pay myself if need be.
I have a friend, actually one of my two best friends, who has borrowed about 70k for college, and is sitll in college so he won't hav eto start paying back his debts yet.
My aunt is... I want to say 41 and is still paying on a loan for college she took out when she was 22 and didn't finish school because of her kids.
college more than anything, is a business. colleges don't get paid if you figure out it's in your best interest not to go. not saying it's NOT.. it wasn't in my case and I had a free ride but don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.. if it's your ambitions to be a doctor.. I will walk you to the front door... but if you want to be a computer engineer... please get real. I'm not spending upwards of 50k to learn a trade that can be learned in a couple of years, if that by taking time and downloading free crap off the internet, buying some old pcs and practice networking them, which is exaclty how I learned how to work on pcs and macs
Vulpine
Master Don Juan
Now for the sake of discussion let's say that your aunt went to school and took out that loan at 41, with half of her functional working life behind her.backbreaker said:
Would you conclude that at age 60 she would still be in debt?
What about retirement?
What about saddling her kids with her debt when she dies?
How would she financially support herself after she was no longer able to work?
That's right: her problems would become her kids problems.
Hey, at least she would have that piece of paper that would say she was "likely to be successful".
Francisco d'Anconia
Master Don Juan
At a risk of derailing the thread I'll add that these are the things that make higher education a lot like religion. Just something to think about.Latinoman said:
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backbreaker
Master Don Juan
actually I think she has done as well as you can expect for someone in her role.. she's not dumb, just got knocked up by a guy at a somewhat early age.Vulpine said:
she has two kids (my two little cousins), both are in the army, one is married... although I don't agree with the army and the other has 2 kids... they could be flippin bugers at Burger King. The one with two kids already has her real estate liscense and she's 20. They just gave her 2 grand so she can put as a down payment on a new trailblazer... i like my auntie... one of the few people in my family i have some type of relatoinship with.. if I would hav e known she even wanted a new car I would have helped her out
Francisco d'Anconia, very true.. very veyr true
This professor is almost 80 years old and has been teaching for longer than most of us have been alive. He has at least 2 Phds...and knows his stuff inside and out.Latinoman said:
Most of this is also common sense. If two people went in for the same job and one had a college degree and the other did not who is going to be hired? The one with the degree. Unless you have enough capital to start and maintain your own business or are lucky enough to win the lottery or manage to start a business with nothing....you ARE going to have more financial opportunities if you have a college education.
Honestly...I've read this exact same thing posted repeatedly on this site and everyone pretty much agrees except for people who don't want to go to college. It anyone else posted what I did you wouldn't be arguing about it.
That's why the percentage of the wealthiest Americans is shrinking. Privilege and old money goes a long way at getting into the best schools. I used to live practically next door to an Ivy League college...and not a lot of locals ended up going there unless their parents who graduated stayed in the area...usually as doctors at the teaching hospital.Latinoman said:
Vulpine...the reason employers are more likely to hire people with a degree is in part because it demonstrates long term commitment and dedication. Those are very favorable qualities. Mechanics with certification go to trade schools that teach what they need to know. That is a skilled trade. A lot of garages won't hire a mechanic that isn't certified because having an uncertified mechanic costs them a butt load more in insurance fees. So yes...even mechanics really need to go to school...but if they love working on cars they will love a mechanic certification program.
Vulpine
Master Don Juan
Wyldfire said:
You're right. Everyone who went to college is better than anyone who hasn't. You're right, I'm arguing with you because it's you and not just any other brain-dead retard that repeatedly and continuously spews sh!t like a toilet set to "reverse".
I see that now. It's common sense.
And now that I'm looking, it turns out you were actually right in every single thread where you posted this: "It anyone else posted what I did you wouldn't be arguing about it."