Legitimate Concern about "I Love You"

[Kailex]

So, I have two separate situations involving a family member and a best friend. I was hoping maybe the So Suave people could help out with some clarification on a few things about those three "magic" words.

(1) My sister has been in an LTR with a very DJ-like guy for almost a year and a half now. This guy, to be honest, is awesome. He's about my age and he pretty much embodies the DJ mentality to a tee. Now, my sister asked my mom and myself for some counsel on a specific matter. She says that the relationship is great and that she is the happiest she has ever been. She's totally head over heels for this guy. Now, I've met him and have talked to him. His business with my sister is his own, obviously. Just by talking to him and seeing his interaction with my sister, I can tell he feels pretty much the same for her.

Now, here's HER concern: In the time they've spent together, they've shared just about everything except "I Love You". She's scared about the fact that he's never said it to her and it's almost been two years. Yet, I know that all of his actions speak crystal clear "I love you" even if he has never verbalized.

So obviously, he's just waiting for her to say it first, right?

She told me she believed that she once KINDA brought up the conversation of whether he has ever said it to anyone and obviously, he knew what she was hinting at and stated: I don't like to throw that around unless it's for someone really special and I want to mean it.

Qualifying move, right? She obviously WANTS him to say it, but she's afraid to say it first. Now I KNOW nothing is going to change and she's not going to leave him nor him, her... but it begs the question:

Is nearly two years TOO much time to drop the "L" word?



(2) My best friend has recently begun seeing a female friend of ours. She had been studying for a few years and had an insane focus on her schoolwork. She breezed through her Bachelor's, Master's, and then her Doctorate. My buddy was focusing on building work experience and schoolwork.

Now, we both knew her from a long way back, since high school. She went to the same college as us, but after her Bachelor's, I really didn't know much about her.

She basically went through her 20's without really establishing a relationship and went through "ugly duckling" syndrome. She was a great person, just not very nice to look at during high school. During her college career, she worked on improving herself at the gym and keeping herself focused. So, she never really established a relationship that was long term.

Pretty much, that I know of, my buddy is her first long term and vice versa. They've been going out for 6 months and he asked me the question: Should I say it to her first?

It seems like they both feel the same way about each other, but their overall lack of knowledge about relationships might be holding it back. Should he wait for her to bring it up? Or should he risk waiting for her to bring up the conversation? He's worried that she might grow antsy and doubt his stance within the relationship if he doesn't express himself in that manner.

- Case in Point: I know there are "iron rules" to follow, but are there exceptions? Are these exceptions? I was really at a loss for words for both situations because they seemed a bit out of the norm from the normal: We have been going out for 3 months and I think I love her and I'm going to say it because she's the one.

I want to hear my fellow DJ's opinions on either of these cases and as to whether you feel there are exceptions to the rule or whether we should ALWAYS let THEM bring the conversation up first.

 

[vatoloco]

Kailex, here's my take:

1) The guy might be a very strict follower of Doc Love. IIRC correctly, he teaches his students NEVER to say "I love you" with words but with actions (I happen to agree). I think I remember him saying that you should only say it twice in your life: one, when you get married and two, when she bears you your child. That was it!

No disrespect towards your sister but, it seems to me like she's afraid she's got the higher IL of the two, which puts her at a disadvantage. If she's an attractive woman, she might also not be used to digging a guy more than he digs her so she is uncomfortable.

It will basically boil down to the person who DOES NOT say "I love you" first being in control of the relationship. Why? Because s/he will know that the other is so much in love with them that they're willing to verbalize it first.

Has she specifically mentioned why she doesn't want to say it first?


2) Similar to what I already mentioned in #1, the person who says "I love you" first is at a disadvantage. Should your friend make an exception to the "rule" and say it first? Sure, it's doable. Personally, I prefer to have her say it first. That way I know she digs me more than I dig her. Puts me in the relationship's driver seat in my eyes.

It seems like they both feel the same way about each other, but their overall lack of knowledge about relationships might be holding it back. Should he wait for her to bring it up? Or should he risk waiting for her to bring up the conversation? He's worried that she might grow antsy and doubt his stance within the relationship if he doesn't express himself in that manner.

What stance does he want to take? If they're in an exclusive LTR, what is there to state? If he's showing her through actions that he loves her and she does not realize/appreciate it, then she might be one of those insecure females that need constant re-affirmation of their man's feelings towards them.

 

[Kailex]

Thanks for replying vato.

1) The guy might be a very strict follower of Doc Love. IIRC correctly, he teaches his students NEVER to say "I love you" with words but with actions (I happen to agree). I think I remember him saying that you should only say it twice in your life: one, when you get married and two, when she bears you your child. That was it!

No disrespect towards your sister but, it seems to me like she's afraid she's got the higher IL of the two, which puts her at a disadvantage. If she's an attractive woman, she might also not be used to digging a guy more than he digs her so she is uncomfortable.

You're not disrespecting her, don't worry. I'm trying to see it as objectively as I can. Her ex-boyfriend was an LTR for a few years and he was visibly more into her than she was into him. So, it's a role reversal for her, which is the root of her insecurity.

So you hit the nail right on the head.
The advice given to her before and including me is that she should be worried more about the man who says "I love you" repeatedly but doesn't demonstrate it than to be worried of the man who never says it but demonstrates it through actions.

She's been much calmer since then.

(2)What stance does he want to take? If they're in an exclusive LTR, what is there to state? If he's showing her through actions that he loves her and she does not realize/appreciate it, then she might be one of those insecure females that need constant re-affirmation of their man's feelings towards them.

They are in an exclusive LTR.
It seems a case of where he is starting to over-think the situation. From talking to him, it just seemed like in his mind, saying it would make the relationship even more official. I wanted to warn him against this because of the potential of her not returning the phrase back to him, which could in turn lead to a worse situation.


Out of these two situations, I had advised my sister already, but didn't really know what to say to my best friend. He's feeling a bit insecure because of the phrase and because he's never said it before. He held a REALLY strong frame for the first few months but just the thought of the phrase has made him waver slightly.


Personally, I've never said it first. I always thought it to be something that I'd never throw around and I really don't want my best friend to be caught up in the same situation. But, I was honestly stumped because his case is somewhat isolated from the normal textbook pattern of an "older couple" in that neither of them had been truly experienced in the world of relationships.

 

[vatoloco]

Her ex-boyfriend was an LTR for a few years and he was visibly more into her than she was into him. So, it's a role reversal for her, which is the root of her insecurity.

It usually is. I had an LTR about 10 years ago with an HB8 who was completely head over heels for me. Unfortunately, being an AFC back then, I missed the signs of her insecurity about her IL being higher than mine.

The advice given to her before and including me is that she should be worried more about the man who says "I love you" repeatedly but doesn't demonstrate it than to be worried of the man who never says it but demonstrates it through actions.

She's been much calmer since then.

It will still bother her though. Depending on how badly she wants him to say it first, it might start eating away at her. She might start seeing red flags where there are none...

If no one has said it in two years though, it makes me wonder. What is it that they both want out of the relationship? Have they had the "where is this going?" conversation? If it hasn't come up, do they just want each other's company w/o the commitment? If that's the case for him, the "ILY" might be unnecessary in his eyes...

They are in an exclusive LTR.
It seems a case of where he is starting to over-think the situation. From talking to him, it just seemed like in his mind, saying it would make the relationship even more official.

What is the need? I suspect something else is going on. If he's wanting to make the relationship "more official", there's gotta be something that's triggering that desire. Is her IL slipping? Is he getting too comfortable and starting to display AFC behaviors? His gut's gotta be telling him something for him to want to re-affirm the relationship...

I wanted to warn him against this because of the potential of her not returning the phrase back to him, which could in turn lead to a worse situation.

Exactly. If she doesn't say it back to him, he's basically toast.

But, I was honestly stumped because his case is somewhat isolated from the normal textbook pattern of an "older couple" in that neither of them had been truly experienced in the world of relationships.

If both of them are relatively inexperienced, what I said about his "gut" earlier might not necessarily apply. But I still think there's something else going on. Something doesn't seem right...

 

[kingsam]

+ reps to Vatolooco

1) The guy might be a very strict follower of Doc Love. IIRC correctly, he teaches his students NEVER to say "I love you" with words but with actions (I happen to agree). I think I remember him saying that you should only say it twice in your life: one, when you get married and two, when she bears you your child. That was it!

This is another example why Doc Love is a freaking genious!

for any one wondering about this...
I Love you gets said too much (women are brainwashed to thinking it has to be said all the time - and some especially with low self esteem need the validation of constant ILU's )
It loses all meaning; people say it on the phone, when they leave, and even after arguments (talk about rewarding bad behaviour!)

NOW imagine if you only said it a few times in you life - imagine how powerful it will be when you say it! - there will be an explosion of emotions in the girl! it will knock her over (emotionally)!

this is in fact very romantic and idealistic...and DL need to be applauded for it!

you can also use it as a way to test the girl...if she needs lots of ILU's then shes probably got some Bad personality traits...

----------------
2) im of the opinion that every one needs at least the first LTR to ultimately fail (and most people need more than one), as it is a MASSIVE learning and growing experience, and you will be more emotionally mature for your next LTR's.

 

[Kailex]

It will still bother her though. Depending on how badly she wants him to say it first, it might start eating away at her. She might start seeing red flags where there are none...

If no one has said it in two years though, it makes me wonder. What is it that they both want out of the relationship? Have they had the "where is this going?" conversation? If it hasn't come up, do they just want each other's company w/o the commitment? If that's the case for him, the "ILY" might be unnecessary in his eyes...

Yeah, they've had conversations about where it's going. They both have talked about a future together. She's finishing up med school, so she's focusing primarily on that. I'm pretty sure she would be a little more "urgent" about the situation if she had finished already.

By talking to him, I could get the sense of "ILY" being unnecessary. All of his actions SAY it, but as a woman, she's not "hearing it". She seemed to be more focused on the fact of him not verbalizing it rather than seeing that he's SHOWING it to her.

Now that this point has been made a little more blatant to her, she has calmed down a lot about it. I think she was almost at the point where she would start trying to see red flags, but now has reconsidered her stance about the "ILY".

What is the need? I suspect something else is going on. If he's wanting to make the relationship "more official", there's gotta be something that's triggering that desire. Is her IL slipping? Is he getting too comfortable and starting to display AFC behaviors? His gut's gotta be telling him something for him to want to re-affirm the relationship...

Her IL seems to be higher than his from what I could see.
I think he's just afraid that NOT saying it will make him fail the active sh!t test in the long run. It's the longest he's ever been in a relationship... as her, so he's swimming in uncharted waters. He's a pro when it comes to anything shorter than 3 months, but this has been going on longer so now he's beginning to doubt what comes next.

If both of them are relatively inexperienced, what I said about his "gut" earlier might not necessarily apply. But I still think there's something else going on. Something doesn't seem right...

I agree. I asked him about it and the way he just started talking yelled out: ONEITIS.

I think THAT is the root of the problem. He went from being calm and cool about it... to thoughts of "What if I lose her".

So, it seems that at the core, you are correct. He might not be displaying AFC behaviors yet, but it's already beginning to creep in slowly into him.

Regardless, I told him NOT to say it first, AT ALL.

 

[vatoloco]

I think THAT is the root of the problem. He went from being calm and cool about it... to thoughts of "What if I lose her".

So, it seems that at the core, you are correct. He might not be displaying AFC behaviors yet, but it's already beginning to creep in slowly into him.

Ah okay, it makes sense. I get the feeling that they both might be 25+, is that correct? Have you talked to the girl? If you feel that her IL is higher but your buddy might be getting Oneitis, it seems like her IL is slipping and his is sky-rocketing. Let him know about this. He needs to keep his emotions in check.

 

[Kailex]

I actually suspect that there is more to it than just her IL slipping. From what I could see, hers isn't slipping. Everything seems to have remained the same.

He is 31 and she is 28.

I think he is starting to succumb to the pressure of his family/other friends who are all acting like this is "the one" and that he might get married soon. He's highly suggestive and I think something else is going on.

That's why I think it's odd that he's acting like this... she's way to into him and the interactions between the two have shown me so, but I think he's listening to outside sources that might be throwing down some peer pressure on him.

A few things have disturbed me about some of the people he is related to and some of his "friends". I've heard a few comments from them about "Finally gonna get married"... "Think you'll ever spit out some kids?".

I think this finally might be internalizing. Of course, I've heard it all before, but I usually responded to it with snappy answers or by telling people that I'm not even in the least worried about it. He... just sat there and let it sink in.

He might be feeling the pressure of her "being the one".

And now that I've typed this, what kingsam said earlier seems to ring especially true:

2) im of the opinion that every one needs at least the first LTR to ultimately fail (and most people need more than one), as it is a MASSIVE learning and growing experience, and you will be more emotionally mature for your next LTR's.

I think he might have to fail in order to learn how to deal with this. He went from "I'm in no rush to be in an LTR and I just want to play the field"
to "Should I tell her I love her".

It's almost unusual because everything we know would imply that her IL is slipping... at this point though, I think it's just a matter of time before it does start to decline if he starts to demonstrate what is going through his mind. That's where the real danger lies at. He's still in time to avoid this over-thinking but the fact that he's listening closely to what his family is saying, is probably the biggest problem.

 

[vatoloco]

This is another example why Doc Love is a freaking genious!

I listen to his show from time to time and, although I kinda don't like his personality, the guy knows what he's talking about. He's little too uptight about following rules though...

im of the opinion that every one needs at least the first LTR to ultimately fail (and most people need more than one), as it is a MASSIVE learning and growing experience, and you will be more emotionally mature for your next LTR's.

It was thanks to the utter failure of my first LTR (read as: she dumped my AFC ass! ) that I began to better myself. It left me so devastated and confused that, after grieving, I took it upon myself to 1) find out the what fvck happened! and 2) find how to prevent it from happening again.

The rest is, as they say, history!

 

[5string]

Kailex.....I have always thought that the most important thing is this. If there is love, it's better to be shown rather than said.

 

[vatoloco]

He is 31 and she is 28.

I think he is starting to succumb to the pressure of his family/other friends who are all acting like this is "the one" and that he might get married soon. He's highly suggestive and I think something else is going on.

This is why I asked for their ages. I went through a similar stage when I turned 30: my family pressuring the hell out of me to get married and my parents (especially my dad) expressing their very strong desire to have grandkids (I'm the oldest of my siblings).

A few things have disturbed me about some of the people he is related to and some of his "friends". I've heard a few comments from them about "Finally gonna get married"... "Think you'll ever spit out some kids?".

I think this finally might be internalizing. Of course, I've heard it all before, but I usually responded to it with snappy answers or by telling people that I'm not even in the least worried about it. He... just sat there and let it sink in.

And this is the way I eventually handled it myself: just told them funnies. "Whatchu talkin' bout Willis? I'm already married! I have three wives up in Utah." or "I already have 3 kids! I just choose not to pay child support!"

I think he might have to fail in order to learn how to deal with this. He went from "I'm in no rush to be in an LTR and I just want to play the field" to "Should I tell her I love her".

I would have to advice against this in this particular situation. I'm of the opinion of "If you have a really good one (and I mean, REALLY good one), don't fvck it up!" If the girl is not marriage material, by all means, let it fail. But if she's a keeper, it's in your buddy's best interest to keep treating her well, while keeping his emotions in check.

It's almost unusual because everything we know would imply that her IL is slipping... at this point though, I think it's just a matter of time before it does start to decline if he starts to demonstrate what is going through his mind. That's where the real danger lies at. He's still in time to avoid this over-thinking but the fact that he's listening closely to what his family is saying, is probably the biggest problem.

Then it's your job to give your buddy an alternate view point!

 

[Kailex]

UPDATE:

Gave my buddy the downlow about what NOT to do... well, it fell on deaf ears. He called me last night in shock and a bit down.

Apparently he was out with her and couldn't contain himself and said it to her... he was met with a shocked look from her as she struggled to find the words to say anything.

I guess she never said anything other than: I know I feel strongly for you but I want to make sure before I really say it.

He said he felt like he wanted the earth to swallow him whole at the moment. She was trying to be reassuring that there was nothing wrong but he was so cut off by the silence that he stayed with her a few more minutes and then took her home. She was concerned that he might be upset and not want to talk to her because of her silence. He just said "Good night", gave her a kiss and left.

As soon as he got home, he called me saying that he was distraught, that he should have listened to me and not taken a gamble. He said that at this point, he could care less about the frame or where the relationship stands and that he'd just opt to never do this again.

It almost sounded as if he were giving up on the relationship already. I told him to take a few days and see what happened next, that he should judge by her actions and then go from there... to not worry, that the situation is salvageable.


I guess it goes to show you that there shouldn't be exceptions to THIS rule... you should always opt to NEVER say it first and instead demonstrate it with actions. The point was definitely hammered home after that phone call.

 

[zekko]

He said he felt like he wanted the earth to swallow him whole at the moment. She was trying to be reassuring that there was nothing wrong but he was so cut off by the silence that he stayed with her a few more minutes and then took her home. She was concerned that he might be upset and not want to talk to her because of her silence. He just said "Good night", gave her a kiss and left.

Ouch, that is just painful to read. I feel for the guy. This should be required reading for any guy who wants to say it first. I agree the situation is not unsalvageable but it sounds like the guy is really discouraged, his confidence may be shattered, and he's lost any hope of having the frame for the forseeable future. Maybe next time he'll listen to you.

 

[squirrels]

When did he say it? Did he just drop it in casual conversation? Like, halfway through the appetizer while she had a breadstick in her mouth?

"I love you" carries power similar to, but not quite the same as, "Will you marry me?". You don't just spring it whenever...you wait for the most perfect moment. You don't just say it because you think you ought to, you say it when being with the woman, her presence or her actions, MOVE you to express the sentiment to her.

The example I like to use is the ol' Harrison Ford "Han Solo" act. Whenever Leia tells him she loves him, he doesn't say it back, he says, "I know" and smiles. There is one point in the trilogy when he actually DOES say it...when they're on Endor, cornered by stormtroopers being ordered to surrender, and Han spots Leia reaching for her gun. At that point, he is so overwhelmed by how awesome this woman is that he can't think of anything else to say.

THAT is when a man says, "I love you"...when a woman does something SO awesome that there's just no other sentiment to express it.

And of course, she answers, "I know". Of course she knows, otherwise he wouldn't have said it. By the time you say, "I love you", she should already know it.

Any time you say, "I love you" expecting an "I love you too", it is IMMEDIATELY APPARENT to the other that you are seeking approval in the form of affection....ESPECIALLY if you say it out-of-context, when the moment isn't right. To a woman, an out-of-context "I love you" may as well be the man saying, "I'm not confident that you love me. PLEASE say you love me!!"

This is why it's so SILLY to try to make a science out of relationships and discuss things such as, "Who should say 'I love you' first" and "when you should say 'I love you'". If you said it when you FELT it, and ONLY when you felt it, then people would have less problems with it...and would get stuck in less sham-relationships. Love isn't a mechanic of the relationship. Love IS the relationship.

 

[Kailex]

He was out with her last night having ice cream. They took a stroll down the beach at night and she was talking about the relationship and how happy she was with him and then he looked at her and said it to her.

I can't really say if his timing was off, or maybe it was the WAY he said it or what it was... all I can go off on is what he tells me her reaction was.

His confidence seemed shot to hell. I've yet to speak to him today.
I know he'll recover, but whoever that was on the phone... did NOT sound like my best friend. He just seemed like a shell of his former self.

Incredible what the power of three words can envelope. Just three words and his whole relationship shook upon gentle foundations, if even for a day or two.

He's learned his lesson and I've learned as well.

 

[2crudedudes]

I was in a relationship where we dated for nearly 1-2 years before becoming "official", and still a year or so passed before "I love yous" were exchanged.

We didn't become BF/GF for the first year or two mainly because I didn't want to be constrained by labels. We were already exclusive to each other, but I didn't want to feel like I had to call her my "girlfriend" in order for me to enjoy her company the way I was doing. I felt that if I started throwing labels and phrases around, the magic would start dwindling. It still took some time after we were officially going out for me to tell her I loved her.

I didn't avoid the topic, I was blunt with her: I'm not gonna lie and tell you I love you. But I really, really like you. I like what we have, and would like to keep it going.

Much like the BF/GF thing, I didn't want this phrase to be any sort of measurement of the health of our relationship.

In fact, at this point, I believe our relationship was at its healthiest before we were BF/GF, and way before "ILY"s were thrown around.

I say live the moment and let things run their course. Don't over think things, and don't worry too much about "getting to the next level".

The thrill of the hunt is in the chase.