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Large Hadron Collider

Quiksilver

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http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html\

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) is a gigantic scientific instrument near Geneva, where it spans the border between Switzerland and France about 100 m underground. It is a particle accelerator used by physicists to study the smallest known particles – the fundamental building blocks of all things. It will revolutionise our understanding, from the minuscule world deep within atoms to the vastness of the Universe.
http://www.lhc.ac.uk/the-big-questions.html

Am I the only one who finds this stuff fascinating?
 

MikeYikes122

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Don't know much about this, but when I opened the AE forum I thought it said "Hardon Collider".

Glad it wasn't that.
 

HandyAndy

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djtdot

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This thing IS fascinating. It recreates conditions that were present a BILLIONTH of a second after the big bang! I mean if THAT's not fascinating what is? We are just a small species on an small planet with an average star at the edge of the galaxy, yet we are trying to find out all the secrets that nature has been hiding from us for 13-14 billion years. I can't even fathom the time scales involved. I mean seriously man it is AWESOME!!

I am an engineering student, but I keep looking for jobs in investment banking or consulting, but its stuff like these that makes a part of me to want to stick in engineering.
 

Desert Fox

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DJDamage said:
Nope, but am I the only one that fears it?! or is it just plain ignorance?
1. Ignorance.

2. The run today wasn't even colliding anything...it was just a test run to send a proton around the ring. collisions will happen in ~ 1 month

3. black holes/end of the world is BS...ppl tried to sue the fermi lab but they failed miserably.

read up on this instead of becoming a dumb sheep.
 

wolf116

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I wish I was apart of something like this.

I can't wait to read about the findings.
 

SmoothTalker

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Yeah actual collisions won't happen till October.

As for the safety of it, I'm mixed. I don't have time to read the posted links at the moment but have read about it in the past.

No doubt it is highly unlikely, but it does worry me a little bit that they say if a black hole is created, it will evaporate before doing any damage. The problem with that is the evaporation (Hawking evaporation I believe) is purely theoretical and has never been observed or proven. This part I don't find very reassuring.

The fact of the matter is that we really are going into the unknown. If these scientists already knew EXACTLY what was going to happen, we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars building this thing.
 

Desert Fox

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SmoothTalker said:
Yeah actual collisions won't happen till October.

As for the safety of it, I'm mixed. I don't have time to read the posted links at the moment but have read about it in the past.

No doubt it is highly unlikely, but it does worry me a little bit that they say if a black hole is created, it will evaporate before doing any damage. The problem with that is the evaporation (Hawking evaporation I believe) is purely theoretical and has never been observed or proven. This part I don't find very reassuring.

The fact of the matter is that we really are going into the unknown. If these scientists already knew EXACTLY what was going to happen, we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars building this thing.
collisions of this magnitude and producing this amount of energy happen millions of times every second in our atmosphere involving cosmic rays

in the atmosphere

on the moon

etc

so why hasn't a black hole swallowed our moon yet?

the only reason they built this was so they could reproduce the same conditions IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY CAN MAKE MEASUREMENTS.


DONT BE AFRAID.

OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE TRUTH. i'm sure u would've reached the same conclusion when you've read the stuff
 

SmoothTalker

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Unless cosmic rays travel at roughly 2 times the speed of light, and if they do, let me know because here I was thinking nothing goes faster then light, then no, its not really the same thing.

Because when you have two particles going in opposite directions at 99% the speed of light, when they collide that's a much higher energy collision. Hence why head on traffic collisions are so deadly.

I know cosmic rays are moving at close to the speed of light, BUT the matter they are impacting such as the atmosphere, moon, earth, or random atoms in space is practically stationary relative to the insane speeds of the particles.

And even if it is moving, what are the odds of them hitting exactly head on heading in exactly opposite directions? I glancing blow wouldn't have the same energy.

Overall the risk is tiny, and I'm certainly curious to see what they learn. But the reports discounting the risks give me an uneasy feeling - like the people writing them are stuck in groupthink and already convinced beyond a doubt before they started considering the situation.
 

BlakeW5

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Am I the only person that hasn't read up on this?

Then again, I really don't care... getting kind of sick about hearing about the dire consequences of the collider from every other person really.

Man-made blackholes? Pffffttt...
 

Aragon034

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All i have to say

Ignorance is Utter.****ing.Bliss.

I didn't even hear about this until today when some crazy dude jumped me on the bus screaming about it. nearly took a swing at him :p
 

Heart Break Kid

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LHC is awesome, I am ecstatic now that they have started using it. I'm taking an astrophysics course and there's a lot of chat in the classroom about it. Do not worry about safety, we will most likely not spontaneously create stranglets which would then turn the Earth into nothing but a glob of strange matter. =P

Nothing has superluminal motion (faster than light) unless you get really deep into theory (minus inflation which although technically did not have a speed was much faster than light.) There are some very strange things that would happen if superluminal travel was possible taking in account reference points.

Also if anyone has any specific questions that are hard to understand without enrolling or in a course or reading a giant book for background infortmation I can attempt to put it into laymens terms. If I cannot I have no problem asking my astrophysics teacher. :)
 

Deep Dish

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SmoothTalker said:
No doubt it is highly unlikely, but it does worry me a little bit that they say if a black hole is created, it will evaporate before doing any damage. The problem with that is the evaporation (Hawking evaporation I believe) is purely theoretical and has never been observed or proven. This part I don't find very reassuring.

The fact of the matter is that we really are going into the unknown. If these scientists already knew EXACTLY what was going to happen, we wouldn't have spent billions of dollars building this thing.
Evaporation is not theoretical. The good word from Dr. Phil Plaitt, the Bad Astronomer:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/03/29/no-the-lhc-wont-destroy-the-earth/
Two men are suing to stop the LHC from being switched on, saying it may be dangerous and might even destroy the Earth:

But Walter L. Wagner and Luis Sancho contend that scientists at the European Center for Nuclear Research, or CERN, have played down the chances that the collider could produce, among other horrors, a tiny black hole, which, they say, could eat the Earth. Or it could spit out something called a “strangelet” that would convert our planet to a shrunken dense dead lump of something called “strange matter.” Their suit also says CERN has failed to provide an environmental impact statement as required under the National Environmental Policy Act.

[…]

The lawsuit, filed March 21 in Federal District Court, in Honolulu, seeks a temporary restraining order prohibiting CERN from proceeding with the accelerator until it has produced a safety report and an environmental assessment. It names the federal Department of Energy, the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory, the National Science Foundation and CERN as defendants.
First off the bat, this sounds nuts, but really it’s not so nuts that we shouldn’t look into it. There are two causes for some concern: one is that LHC might create a black hole which would eat the Earth, and the other is that a very odd quantum entity called a strangelet might be created, with equally devastating results.

However, I don’t think there’s anything to worry about. I want to make that clear up front.

The LHC will slam subatomic particles together at fantastic speeds. The collision in a sense shatters the particles and all sorts of weird beasties are created in the aftermath. This give physicists insight into the basic quantum nature of the Universe. The higher the energy of the collision, the more interesting stuff you get. LHC will be the most powerful collider ever built, and is expected to provide really new looks at the quantum world.

That’s what has the two litigators worried.

If two subatomic particles collide at high enough speed, it’s possible that they will collapse into a black hole. If that happens, it would fall through the Earth and, well, you can guess what bad things would happen then.

However, studies done by CERN show that the energies generated will be too low to make black holes. Also, due to a weird effect called Hawking radiation, the tiny black holes would evaporate instantly. The two litigants, however, say that Hawking radiation is not an established fact, and therefore we should be more careful. While that’s technically true, they forgot something important: the same rules of quantum physics that make a black hole in a subatomic collision also indicate they would evaporate. So if you’re worried they won’t evaporate, then you shouldn’t be worried they’d be created in the first place.

Same goes for the creation of a quantum strangelet. This is a weird conglomeration of particles called quarks, and if a strangelet comes into contact with normal matter can convert it into more strangelets. The idea is that these can cause a chain reaction that turns all available matter into strangelets. That would be bad.

However, first, strangelets are completely theoretical, and again even if they are real it’s incredibly unlikely they would be created even by LHC. And even if they were created, the chances of them being a danger are very small. A study a few years ago by physicists at MIT, Yale, and Princeton shows this to be the case; as they point out, higher energy particles hit the Moon all the time. If strangelets could be created in this way, the Moon would have converted to a big ball o’ strangelets billions of years ago.

So I think that considering things like this happening is good — after all, we’re walking into new territory here — but in this particular case the litigants are wrong. A lawsuit seems like overkill. In fact, it’s so odd that my skeptical gland was tweaked, and I decided to look into the litigants’ backgrounds.

Walter Wagner apparently has a physics background, but was involved in a similar lawsuit over the Brookhaven collider a few years back, which turned out to be completely baseless.

As for the other, Luis Sancho, he’s, well, how do I phrase this delicately? He’s a bit outside the mainstream. Actually, way outside the mainstream. In fact, totally and way way far outside the mainstream. I don’t think you can even see the mainstream from where he is.

While dismissing the idea of any danger from LHC due to these factors would be an ad hominem and therefore unfair, I think it adds a dimension to this case that’s good to keep in mind.

Again, I’m not worried. I don’t see any basis for their fears, and certainly not for their lawsuit.
 

Desert Fox

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Smoothtalker I never said anything moves faster than the speed of light lol....nothing is faster than c
 

apusislaya

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LHC is neither GOOD nor BAD

Thing LHC will do is divide the ignorant sheeple, one side will believe LHC is good, the other side will believe LHC is bad, and both sides will argue with each other and throw rocks at each other.

What's the real truth?

No LHC is not going to cause a black hole. Like the one you thinking. But it will cause a lapse in your head and distraction. From the real issues in this world. LCH and the theories behind it being BAD are an entertainment machine, to keep you looking at it with amazement, while a gang of thugs rapes someone's mother behind your back.


What real issues???


Hmmmm, issues such as masses of modern day men being fed garbage via TV and internet, and slowly turned into AFCs.

Issues like our society's confusion between war and peace.

It is things like that. Someone wants us to be stuck in ignorance, use our left brains only. Heck! We are even being rewarded for using left brain, in school you are encouraged to memorize information and spew it out onto a page, and you got bad marks if you got creative with solution. All good jobs are held by developed left brains. Einstein certainly didn't come up with his theories by memorizing and spewing information out. He did bad in school!

Maybe the secret to life is learning how to use left and right brain together, in unison? Perhaps a brain like that is a vehicle that will truly set us free?

Perhaps the thing LHC will accomplish is make us more ignorant, and more retarded, unable to live a life that is a dream, to pursue our OWN passions, and our OWN dreams.
 

j0n024

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I'm not gonna lie and say I know anything about this cause I could care less since it's not my field or something that interests me guess you can call me a what did you guys call it "Ignorant sheep," Hahaha.

But what is the point of this? I mean from what I gather in this thread we are colliding atoms...for what? A new form of energy, just to see what happens what or like someone else said to distract society what.
 

Darles Chickens

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I was worried but then figured that if anything went wrong and a man made black hole was created 300ft below Switzerland threatening to destroy life as we know it then they could just switch it off at the mains or just pull the plug. Phhhheww!
 
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