KINO: How You THINK It Works vs. How it ACTUALLY Works

[Harry Wilmington]

Hey guys:

I've been meaning to do a post about this subject for a while. What prompted me today was reading Who Dares Win's most recent post about having a date with a respectable lady (which you can read HERE.)

One of the things I advised him to do was this:

On the date, do NOT be the first one to initiate any touching. Aside from an initial hug or hand shake, keep your hands to yourself... Always remember: as insecure as you may be on these dates, women feel that way three times more. In her head she'll be like "I think this is going well... but does he really like me? He hasn't tried to touch me like all the other bozos I go out with! Maybe he's repulsed by me? I have to know. I know - I'll tell him a funny story and brush my hand across his arm as a test..." This is why it's important NOT to touch her. If she likes you, she'll have no choice but to touch YOU first. At that point, it's all systems go!

His response was: "You sure about this? I've never tried it, in fact my concern is being myself very aggressive when it comes of kino to burn it, however this seems in the other part of the spectrum. Can u provide some more details in case?"

Since I was going to write a fairly long response to his question, I figure I would just post it up as a separate post for everyone to see, as I feel it will provide a better insight into how this whole "Kino" thing works.

I see post on here all the time where guys talk about their usage of Kino on girls. For those new to the board and not familiar with the lingo, "Kino" means physically touching a girl in a way that's supposed to drive up sexual tension in her so that she wants to eventually screw you.

Now, I'm on these boards regularly, so I've read TONS of post where guys talk about using kino. What I've noticed, though, is a pattern that indicates kino having a NEGATIVE affect on the women they're going after.

Here's how a typical story goes on these boards:

"Hey guys - so, met this girl, started a conversation with her... things were going good, so I initiated some kino... she pulled away at first, but then got comfortable with it. Got her number at the end of the night..."

So far so good, right? But here's the rest of the story...

"...but when I hit her up a few days later, she (insert one of three: didn't text me back; gave one or two sentence responses; didn't accept my date offer or give a counter-offer). What did I do wrong?"

And in my head, the answer is easy: you messed up by initiating kino without knowing if she WANTED you to touch her in the first place, and it made her uncomfortable.

Now, a guy reading that might think "but she let me touch her after the first couple of times!" And my response is: yeah, she let you touch her once she realized you weren't going to stop, but that doesn't mean she LIKED it.

Here's the thing, fellas: doing the whole "kino" thing only works if the girl actually has an interest in you and WANTS you to touch her. If you touch her BEFORE she likes you or BEFORE she's ready to be touched by you, you're only going to make her feel uncomfortable and NOT want to be around you.

The easiest way to tell if a girl wants you to touch her... is to wait for HER to touch YOU first.

Now, some of you less confident guys will balk at this. "Wha? Wait for her to touch ME?!? But what if she doesn't do it?"

You have to look at a date from a girl's perspective for a minute, as well as what her expectations are. Ever since she was 12, every guy she's ever gone out with has been trying to touch her. It gets to a point where she expects it to happen.

Now, let's say she's 25. She's been going out on dates for 13 years. If she's fairly attractive, let's assume she can get 1 date a week for all of those years. That's 52 dates a year for 13 years:

52 dates x 13 years = 676 guys

By 25, she's now accustomed to every bozo she goes on a first date with trying to touch her. And she doesn't like it because, after all those dates, it doesn't make her feel special when the guy touches her; it makes her feel like he's just doing it to get sex.

But now, here you come. Guy #677. You ask her out, you meet up and give her a hug, and she thinks "Oh boy, here we go - another guy trying to put his chest against me to feel my boobs. I wonder what other touchy tricks he's going to try on me..."

But, instead of being like all the others, you do the opposite. Aside from that initial hug, you DON'T try to touch her. You sit down at the coffee shop and start talking, really getting to know her. And she starts to enjoy the exchange, all the while thinking to herself: "Any moment now, he's going to touch me, I know it..."

Then, an hour goes past. And you haven't touched her. And she finds herself having a REALLY good time on the date. You're now walking around a book store, looking at books and sharing your interest, and she's feeling some kind of connection with you. In fact, she's already starting to think there might be a date #2.

But now, there's a problem - and it's not YOUR problem, but a problem that's arisen in her head...

You see, up to this point you haven't touched her. And at first, she felt relieved about it. But now that she's starting to like you, she's wondering WHY you're not touching her. Suddenly, she starts playing head games with herself. Why? Because by not touching her, she CAN'T READ YOUR INTEREST, and it's driving her crazy.

"Wow, he REALLY hasn't tried to touch me? Does he not like me? He must like me 'cause he asked me out... but maybe he's not really feeling me like that now. OMG, maybe I'm LOSING him - I'm not a bad date am I? Does he not find me attractive? I mean, GEEZ, I've got breasts, curves and a nice face, why wouldn't he want to touch me?!? All the other 676 guys tried to, what's going on here?!?"

Furthermore, by being so in-control of your hands, she's now finding out something else quite interesting: because you're not touching her, SHE wants to touch YOU!

However, if she's a nice girl or has a good reputation, she doesn't want to come across as a slvt and jump you right away. At the same time, she has to be able to gauge if you're okay with her touching you in the first place. (See how the roles reverse when YOU'RE the patient one?)

And so, what will usually happen is this: she'll start up a new story with an exasperated expression - "OMG, I HAVE to tell you the story about this time when" - while placing her hand on your arm or hand at the same time. And you may think she's not conscious of herself doing it, but BELIEVE ME, that hand placement of hers was planned out prior to her doing it.
---

Once the girl has done this first touch, that's the signal from her that it's now okay for me to start doing my own kino. But even then, I keep it 3-to-1 at first: she touches me 3 times, I give her one. As the date progresses I up the frequency a bit, and by the end of the date I'm usually making out with them. (I also tend to leave them hanging that first night, so by date number 2 they're set to go all the way with me).

So, to all you guys out there wondering why your kino technique is failing, it's because you're not being PATIENT and waiting for her to touch you first. Don't be so in a hurry to start touching her right away - if she likes you, she's going to feel inclined to do so.

Being patient also has the benefit of being able to better read whether a girl likes your or not - real talk, not every girl is going to be attracted to you and want to be touched by you. BUT, if you can't tell how the dates going, just look back and see if she touched you at any time during the date other than the greeting and the parting of ways.

If she brushes up against you, stands close to you, rubs her hand on your arm, acts like she's brushing something off your face, etc., it means she's open to you touching her. Until you get those signals, though, keep your hands to yourself!

Hope this helps!

-Harry Wilmington

 

[Fly By Night]

Yeah, I've lost a couple girls to early kino :l Most of the time it worked when I initiated it was if we were in a club/party environment. I agree with the theory... it's just that it seems like girls never initiate kino first in my experience.

 

[Plutoman]

Truth to this. Definite truth to this.

Would this, in your estimation, apply to only the most attractive girls? What scale does this start breaking down? Obviously a league difference is going to change things; if you are far above her, I would assume it can only help to initiate as it will only speed things up.

And, does this apply in all circumstances? If a girl is unsure and a conversation is getting too tame, could initiating some mild kino possibly provoke some return and prevent interest from falling? I would assume in these cases that you'll return with the 'not a high interest' card, but is it possible to boost the interest level using any kino when her own IL isn't high enough to initiate herself?

 

[ben489]

That's why the best type of kino to initiate with is something where she meets you half way, for example offering your hand to spin her and then you can pull her in. You give her the choice and once she accepts you're good to go

 

[foreverAFC]

i had a cute girl at work totally grab my forearm one time for no real reason, it was pretty cool

 

[Harry Wilmington]

@Fly By Night: I find that the more confident you are in yourself and who you are as a person, the more likely it will be that girls will find you attractive, and therefore want to touch you. The opposite is also true: the more nervous you seem, the less likely they will touch you. Basically, whatever energy you're giving off is the one that's going to determine whether or not they like you, and therefore want to touch you.

But, more often than not, if they're not touching you, it's because they're not really feeling you. That doesn't mean her interest won't build up within the next few dates, but it does mean that, since she's not touching you yet, you trying to do it to her isn't the best idea in the world.

Again, I have found that most girls who like you can't keep their hands off you, and will find excuses to touch you. You're 20, and I don't know what your dating experience has been like; if it's anything like mine, you won't get confident in yourself until later on. However, in looking back, even when I wasn't the most confident guy in the world (nor was I reading signals back then), I remember going on dates and girls touching me - I just didn't know what it meant at the time!

@Plutoman: This applies to about 95% of all girls. Here's where it gets interesting, though: the girls that are not as attractive are almost like AFCs in that they'll be trying to touch you early on in the date; the pretty girls are the more experienced ones, where they'll hold out for a longer time, but will eventually cave in once they see you're withholding your touch from them.

The remaining 5% are the exceptions to the rule - i.e. the shy girl; the one who comes from a conservative background; or the one who's waiting until marriage to do anything. These types of girls may not initiate touch; this doesn't mean the guy should go all grabby on her though. In fact, these girls tend to be the ones that you have to be even MORE patient with in the touch department. But as long as you're cool with just giving them hugs and waiting for them to open up to you, they'll still show you they like you in other ways.

And to answer your other question: nothing is ever absolute, but I have found that, in the majority of situations, touching a girl before she touches you only makes the interest fall quicker. So, if you're having a conversation and it's starting to sound dull, it's better to figure out a topic that would be more interesting, or find a physical activity to engage in that would increase the endorphins in her system (NOT sex, but ping pong, amusement part, arcade, etc.), so that she WANTS to touch you, as opposed to being like "Hmm, convo's getting lame... let me find an excuse to touch her arm!"

 

[LoveTheLight]

Very interesting topic Harry. I was always taught to initiate it right off the bat. Thanks, good read

 

[NewAndImproved]

Interesting topic.

Wondering what your thoughts were on touch and frame control.

When I first got into game, because I was so terrible at kino (just afraid of physically escalating in any way shape or form), I went the other extreme and kinoed the hell out of girls.

What I'm noticing now is he/she who touches first usually gives up power, some of the frame. I like the idea of a girl always being uncertain if she has you. Initiating touch, especially early on, eliminates that mystery.

 

[Aristippus]

Fly by Night said:
"I agree with the theory... it's just that it seems like girls never initiate kino first in my experience."

***Maybe they never initiate first because you never give them the chance to. If every time, you're looking for the first opportunity to engage in some form of touch during conversation, 10 times out of 10, you're beating her to the punch.


Harry Wilmington said:
"So, if you're having a conversation and it's starting to sound dull, it's better to figure out a topic that would be more interesting, or find a physical activity to engage in that would increase the endorphins in her system (NOT sex, but ping pong, amusement part, arcade, etc.), so that she WANTS to touch you"

***You could do that or simply do something more relaxed, like have a drink at a bar/restaurant or have a drink, hot chocolate, or dessert at a place that has tables outside if the weather permits it. You could also use your eye contact and physical proximity as a way to open yourself up to be an easy "target" for her. You simply close the gap some by standing just a little bit closer to her, without touching, and by maintaining prolonged, relaxed eye contact during the conversation, occasionally breaking your glance to look at the scenery or to look at your immediate surroundings. If you're sitting you can glance at the table you're sitting at. The glasses your drinks are in. Her clothing. Her shoulders or neck. Her hair or jewelry. The picture on the wall behind her. Etc etc.

Your eye contact can be 80/20. 80% relaxed, gazing into her eyes, 20% taking in the scenery and immediate surroundings. Notice if after you make prolonged eye contact, does she narrow her eyes when looking into your eyes? Does she start acting more animated and inching in closer to you? At some point she will probably start touching you excessively during the conversation. At that point, like you mentioned earlier, you simply reciprocate.

 

[PapiChulo]

I disagree. You have to break the touch barrier in a friendly way. It makes people think of you in a more intimate/physical way, thus acknowledging your sexuality or a friendly intent. You can tell right off the bat if she is enjoying, which can be very pleasurable and exciting for both - sure way to sex. We are animals and touch is the primeval mode of communication on instinctual/subconscious level. Break the social convention and touch away! Make yourself open to touch as well.

 

[Harry Wilmington]

I disagree. You have to break the touch barrier in a friendly way. It makes people think of you in a more intimate/physical way, thus acknowledging your sexuality or a friendly intent.

Yeah... I'm going to have to disagree with this part. For one, just by asking the girl on a date, she's going to know you're interested, and most girls are smart enough to figure out that the guy is going to want to be sexual with her at some point.

Secondly, while you want a girl to know you're interested in her, you also want there to be some mystery as to HOW interested you are. When you're the one initiating the touch, you've pretty much shown her your cards up front. It's better to make her think that SHE had to be the one to spark your interest in touching her by touching you first. That way, she'll feel like she has to keep touching you in order for you to want to touch her - something that comes in handy later when you go in for the kiss. By then, she'll be happy you went for it first, while at the same time thinking to herself she must continue kissing you back in order for you to keep doing it to her. Backwards way of thinking about it, but I've seen this way work more than the opposite.

...

I pretty much agree with what you said. Yes, the girl should touch you first, but you should make yourself available for her touch. For example, when I go on dinner dates, I make sure to sit across from her and have my arms stretched out on the table. That way, when she feels like she's ready to touch me, my arms are already there for her to place her hands on. Or, if we're walking some place, I'll walk close to her for a while so she can smell my cologne; then, I'll walk away from her for a bit and act like I'm looking at something, but it's really to make her wonder where I went. When she sees, she'll walk up to me and make sure to walk even CLOSER to me.

And yes, the eye contact is also important. Being able to keep eye contact with them makes them realize you're not intimidated by them, thus turning them on and making them want your touch even MORE.

 

[Deep Dish]

Harry Wilmington:
Now, I’m on these boards regularly, so I’ve read TONS of post where guys talk about using kino. What I've noticed, though, is a pattern that indicates kino having a NEGATIVE affect on the women they're going after.

Here's how a typical story goes on these boards:

”Hey guys - so, met this girl, started a conversation with her... things were going good, so I initiated some kino... she pulled away at first, but then got comfortable with it. Got her number at the end of the night…”

So far so good, right? But here's the rest of the story...

”…but when I hit her up a few days later, she (insert one of three: didn't text me back; gave one or two sentence responses; didn't accept my date offer or give a counter-offer). What did I do wrong?”

And in my head, the answer is easy: you messed up by initiating kino without knowing if she WANTED you to touch her in the first place, and it made her uncomfortable.

In 2002, DeepBlue wrote the seminal essay “What KINO is REALLY all about (Advanced).”

Ever see a baby fall down? Notice how they don’t know whether to laugh it off or cry so they look to their parents to see the parents face? If the parent frowns with concern then the baby starts crying. If the parent smiles the baby starts laughing.

Same with women. When you are entering new territory with a woman by challenging the “touch barriers” between you and her then you have to do it calmly and confidently and that CAUSES her to experience it as exciting. If you do it nervously she'll experience it as something that isn’t right and that makes her uncomfortable.​

Most guys here are under-experienced, so it’s very plausible they conveyed nervousness and awkwardness in their delivery, or the girls just weren’t interested, anyway.

Pook:
Kino ALWAYS has a SURE answer (as well as asking her out. But she can date you to be polite, she cannot fake her reaction to kino)

Kino is a GREAT way to test their interest. Girls that don’t like you, or find you neutral, will not like you touching them.

Usually when I kino a girl, it is very subtle. Everyone else in the universe thinks it is innocent. However, if a girl believes that you are being friendly versus liking her, she will choose to think that you like her. Thus, any kino is interpreted as LIKING HER.

You win even when you lose. If a girl doesn’t like your kino, you successfully screened a flake rather than lost an opportunity.

 

[Trump]

.

Harry Wilmington said:
"So, if you're having a conversation and it's starting to sound dull, it's better to figure out a topic that would be more interesting, or find a physical activity to engage in that would increase the endorphins in her system (NOT sex, but ping pong, amusement part, arcade, etc.), so that she WANTS to touch you"

***You could do that or simply do something more relaxed, like have a drink at a bar/restaurant or have a drink, hot chocolate, or dessert at a place that has tables outside if the weather permits it. You could also use your eye contact and physical proximity as a way to open yourself up to be an easy "target" for her. You simply close the gap some by standing just a little bit closer to her, without touching, and by maintaining prolonged, relaxed eye contact during the conversation, occasionally breaking your glance to look at the scenery or to look at your immediate surroundings. If you're sitting you can glance at the table you're sitting at. The glasses your drinks are in. Her clothing. Her shoulders or neck. Her hair or jewelry. The picture on the wall behind her. Etc etc.

Your eye contact can be 80/20. 80% relaxed, gazing into her eyes, 20% taking in the scenery and immediate surroundings. Notice if after you make prolonged eye contact, does she narrow her eyes when looking into your eyes? Does she start acting more animated and inching in closer to you? At some point she will probably start touching you excessively during the conversation. At that point, like you mentioned earlier, you simply reciprocate.

There is no activity that is going to make her want to touch you. Your social value, your money, and her attraction towards you will make her want to touch you. Switching from a boring conversation to ping pong isn't going to help, she could be going out with you to get her ego fed and feel good about herself.

Think there is way too much information about what to do when you are out with a girl, it confuses people and makes them screw up.

Before reading Pick up advice on what to do, I had girls all over me begging me to sleep with them because I was a jerk, then I started reading articles about how to be attractive and get alot of sex so I become unavailable, evasive, didn't answer questions, memorized techniques, ignored calls. Needless to say the advice didn't work.

Think if you just focus on your goal and don't take any crap from her, you'll be fine. But to switch to an activity so she can touch you is too contrived, just pay for it in that case.

 

[Young Juan]

I have to respectfully disagree with this thread as a hard and fast rule. I'm basing the following off experience.

Kino is not about establishing, it's about escalating. In order for kino to work, you have to already have a level of trust, comfort, attraction, etc. established. Everything after is a function of probability and expected value: the more you've already established, the higher the probability your kino will be effective, the less you're established, the lower the probability your kino will be effective. You increase the probability your kino will be effective by increasing the level of your establishment.

With a minimum, non-specific/interaction dependent level of establishment, your kino will increase your establishement and allow you to escalate toward your desired level of sexual activitity. Without this minimum level of establishemtn, kino is more likely to repulse and de-escalate the subject away from your desired level of sexual activity.

How do you establish? Be a man, be interesting, be attractive, have inner game, make her laugh and have a good time, lead, etc. To Harry's point, once a girl touches you in the manner described, that is basically a sign that you've met the aforementioned level of establishment and should be escalating via kino. This is not carte blanch, just the first rung on the ladder and an invite to climb.

To the points of my other dissenters in this thread, one must not necessarily wait until a woman initiates kino in order to begin kino themselves. The fact is that most guys on here are beginners and not adept enough to notice and pinpoint the moment when they should begin keno. Heck, most of the aforementioned guys barely even attempt to initiate kino. Add to the fact that many girls have confidence issues (lets face it, not everyone here is chasing 10's all day, a lot are chasing 5s - some rounded up to 8's that are really 7.5s) and are less likely to initiate kino themselves. This is a toxic combination that will lead to nutting-on-your-knuckles syndrome.

This is why I prefer to tell these gentleman to initiate kino themselves. Until you've initiated and practiced enough kino to gauge reactions and at least begin to be able to predict (through trial and error experience) when a woman will or won't be likely to be receptive to your kino advances, you need to initiate yourself so that you can gain the aforementioned trial and error experience.

I personally prefer to initiate kino based off of eye contact and smiles. Not just any smile, but a genuine "why isn't he doing more" smile and direct eye contact. Women are very adept with speaking with their eyes, while you're just sitting there masturbating...wait, I mean telling your story (got memes?).

I say all that to say, nothing is 100%, but I would prefer a beginner err on the side of too aggressive, since they've most likely been too passive up until this point. Once they have the practice and a little more confidence, something strange will tend to happen, and girls will be nervous around you because your so attractive. At this point, some girls may start think you're a player and when you initiate kino, they will actually start to shut you down because they think you're like all the other players and can't recognize a pimp when they see one. You're different homie, you're self made.

Nonetheless, that's when you lean back and take the attitude of my favorite African-American urban poet laureate, Dwayne Carter - "I ain't even tryin to hit it, I'm a get it when it's time to get it"

That is the top level attitude you can have when it becomes about having fun, not gettin pvssy. I think this may be more of the level that Harry is on.

 

[youngmack]

Ok I'm confused about kino. How do you touch a girl to raise kino? When I mean how I mean where do you touch her? Say If I touch her hair randomly in the middle of a convo is that good kino? If I play with her fingers Is that good? Please elaborate someone.

 

[NobodyCares1]

I'm almost always the first to initiate KINO when meeting a new girl and it worked for me well so far. At first I just talk with her for a couple of minutes, then while saying a neg or basically just busting her balls I put my arm around shoulders and there you go. Then continue with the talk, slowly escalate the KINO and then isolate her.

Of course that's only in ideal situations. This can change, my last pick up was in a bus, on a way to the disco. She was a bit drunk wchich might helped but still. I just talked to her a bit, maybe 3 minutes, then I grabbed her hand. After a short while she sat next to me, so I grabbed her around the waist with my other hand. Worked well.

I actually never had a girl who I just met and talked to for a bit to refuse my KINO escalation. Of course the conversation had to go well, when I see she isn't so interested I don't escalate. So basically I can say that KINO has never failed me, it always ended at least with a make out.

 

[DonGorgon]

Yeah, I've lost a couple girls to early kino :l Most of the time it worked when I initiated it was if we were in a club/party environment. I agree with the theory... it's just that it seems like girls never initiate kino first in my experience.

that just means their physical attraction is low... when they are really into you they do what ever

 

[VladPatton]

I dunno, I mean I can see both points of view. What I think is a good way to do some touching is to use laughing/teasing opportunities to strike, when she's in a 100% failsafe good mood. And with that you go light, you dont grab t!ts for cryin out loud. If she touches back during further teasing, laughing, you're getting there, if not, you're not.

I think doing it this way it reduces the creepiness level quite a bit. Great thread tho.

 

[zekko]

This just goes to show that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Pimp-sicle]

In 2002, DeepBlue wrote the seminal essay “What KINO is REALLY all about (Advanced).”

Ever see a baby fall down? Notice how they don’t know whether to laugh it off or cry so they look to their parents to see the parents face? If the parent frowns with concern then the baby starts crying. If the parent smiles the baby starts laughing.

Same with women. When you are entering new territory with a woman by challenging the “touch barriers” between you and her then you have to do it calmly and confidently and that CAUSES her to experience it as exciting. If you do it nervously she'll experience it as something that isn’t right and that makes her uncomfortable.​

Most guys here are under-experienced, so it’s very plausible they conveyed nervousness and awkwardness in their delivery, or the girls just weren’t interested, anyway.You win even when you lose. If a girl doesn’t like your kino, you successfully screened a flake rather than lost an opportunity.

Great post DD.

These were might thoughts exactly.








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