Juggler method vs the listener

[Imbrondir]

I've been reading up in the ASF archives about Jugglers, and he seem to make some great points about alot of subjects. However, there is a few things I'm really confused about.

1) It's all about you
Sounds nice in theory, but don't girls hear this all the time? I mean, that's what most guys do (Or most guys don't do anything I guess). Talking about themselves and their lives constantly. Very uninteresting imo. Most human loves talking about themselves or things they have atleast been involved with. Things like listening, and demonstrate understanding seem to give quicker rapport, and a more interesting conversation...

Personally I also dislike to talk about myself, but love listening, and making other people talk.

Not to mention, you are the one who should be qualifying her right? Getting to know her values, goals, dreams, past and such...

2) Questions vs Statements
This is to me the most confusing. I almost form everything I say as a question. If I try making statements, they always end up as a question discuised as a statement. "I'll bet you like skiing(?)". Some examples of this would be great. Hey, even James Bond uses questions only. I'd love to see an entire (interesting) conversation based purely on statements.

 

[Imbrondir]

One more attempt...

 

[Oscar Wilde]

Can you link to some of the stuff you were reading? Could be interesting.

I'm loud, find it's more 50-50 than the recommended 60-40

Osc.

 

[Imbrondir]

Heh, well it's alot of reading. 500 posts in pdf format. But if you're still interested:

http://www.fastseduction.com/archives/archive_juggler.zip

The point I think is most controversional is that he suggest using statements with hooks, that will make her curious and ask you questions. And by your answers you are demonstrating your value.

Placing hooks that make her curious about you sound like an excellent idea, but answering them ?

 

[Oscar Wilde]

Yeah, that does sound interesting, will take a read of it!

 

[Jake Steed]

I actually had the same criticisms of Juggler's "method" myself. My reasoning was, if you're only firing off statements, you put yourself in the role of the "court jester", where you are basically placing yourself on the stage for her amusement. The reason I was turned off by hearing this theory of making "statements only" was I knew lots of guys who try to do this, and they come off as clowns. I admit, I was a little biased.

It wasn't until further reflection and some people who'd taken Juggler's workshop explained to me his point of making statements that I began to understand what he's going after. When you make statements, like sharing your intelligent observations on life and with her, you are making YOURSELF the focus. Basically you are telegraphing that YOU have the value. You are the star. Another reason for making statements is that you avoid the dating cliche where you turn it into a fvcking job interview. I think these are good reasons, and for this I think it's just a smart thing to both give statments AND ask deep questions about her in order to learn who she is. After all, that's what conversation is about--to share your feelings and to learn about someone else. (BTW as a disclaimer, I have never taken any of Juggler's workshops or read any of his material. The above statements are all paraphrased to me by people who have, so I could be off.)

My personal style of convo is to steer the convo into deep intimite territory with 60% questions and 40% statements, where appropriate. Then when she becomes enthralled into my convo, she almost always starts asking me more and more questions to get to know me, and THEN the focus is on me.

Jake

 

[Imbrondir]

Thanks jake. I know a few of these 'clowns' as well. Which is why I am really skepctical. I guess I'd need to be shown the difference between right and wrong.

Wrong?
Bragging? Accomplishments? Your job?


Right?
Situations with strong emotions (sortof patterning)? Observations?



Anybody around who's taken his workshop?
Now where is PDX when you need him?

 

[Imbrondir]

*bumps*

 

[Doppler4000]

I kinda felt the same way as Jake did- it's like you're putting on some kind of act or performance (which in many ways you really are, but you want it to come off as natural)- but I HAVE actually found that you can get through that initial period of awkwardness that usually happens when you start a conversation if you remember the fact that it's OK if you're doing more of the talking than her. After a short time, then I like to involve her more and start to judge interest level (hers AND mine).

 

[numlock]

the ultimate aim of making statements is to show her that it's OK to talk about yourself. no girl will want to share anything with you if all you're doing is asking her questions. in the back of her mind, she still sees you as a stranger since she knows nothing about you (which is why the whole "mystery" thing doesn't work), and will refrain from talking about herself.

but if you encourage her to share by sharing yourself first, then the conversation will slowly steer away from you, and onto her.

 

[Imbrondir]

Thanks numlock and Doppler. I think I know where you guys are going...

Still some examples would be most apreciated. And perhaps what kind of subjects to reveal.

 

[SexPDX]

First of all, talking about yourself too much is something you want to avoid. If you appear to be talking yourself up too much to the girl then that is going to come across as insecure. Where Juggler is coming from is to say that you want to be sharing of yourself and open. Also, by talking about yourself he doesn't mean to talk about your car, your job, and everything else about your life. Not that talking about those things is bad, but you want to talk about your HUMAN self, that is to say your human reactions to the world and your life. I have posted examples of this kind of conversation in the past.

Regarding questions and statements, I think a lot of people here and in mASF took my "one week with nothing but statements" mission out of context when I posted it. The idea is not to use nothing but statements for the entire interaction, that would be really awkward. It's just for providing some value in the beginning to serve as a foundation for building rapport.

Many guys will walk up to a woman and start asking her question after question after question hoping to get her to talk. The reason this tends not to work is because by doing this the guy is asking the girl to provide value to the interaction without having provided any himself. By making statements you are not giving her a reason to walk away or not to listen to you because it's you who is providing the value. Eventually (well, not always) she will react to something you say by either opening up or asking for part of your conversation back. Now you have what Juggler calls a "thread" to work with.

The same is true for the whole 90/10 conversation ratio Juggler talks about. That is only for the beginning. It would not be much of an interaction if you were doing 90% of the talking the WHOLE TIME. The simple fact is that most girls will not open up to a stranger unless he provides a certain amount of initial value. This is another reason why the guys who ask questions run into problems. The girl gives short answers to a couple of questions so the guy just keeps asking more. The guy often mistakes the girl's shyness, humbleness or shock over talking to a stranger for total disinterest or lack of attraction.

Let me know if this answers your questions. If not I will clarify further when I have time.

-PDX

 

[SexPDX]

Just one more thought...

The title of this thread was "Juggler Method vs. The Listener", which to me kind of implies that you are under the impression that Juggler Method is in conflict with listening. Try looking up some of what Juggler has written about "Listening and Proving You Have Listened". Not sure where it's posted (or come to think of it if it was posted at all) but it's good stuff if you can find it.

-PDX

 

[Imbrondir]

I think you satisfied most of my confusion PDX, thank you . Altough I've been looking trough the entire juggler archive at the mASF forum, I have not seen that listener post from him. From his posts I noticed it seemed like he always wanted to 'trick' people into asking him questions about himself, to fuel curiosity and continue talking about himself. So I assumed he was using an anti-method of 'the listener'. Would be very interested in reading that post tho...

 

[h2o]

just BUMPING this to get Juggler on everyone's radar.

if you think you have great social skills, interact/flirt well with girls, and are good just being yourself, this is a great extra to your natural game.

I don't agree with everything, but overall, his perspective is pretty congruent with mine.

I don't even know why it's referred to as a "method," because it's not really a method...

read up on his archives here:
http://www.charismasciences.com/passport/compiled.html