Is the whole PUA thing just a scam?

[MatureDJ]

http://lifestylejourney.blogspot.com/2010/02/pua-scam.html

 

[zekko]

I happen to think it's a scam. I don't buy into everything in the article, but I did agree with a few things that were said:

1) That the PUA industry takes one pedestal women are on and replaces it with another.
2) That the PUA community is like a "cult" - I've said this a few times on this forum. The bit about priming the fear and providing the solution.
3) That the PUA industry portrays men as inadequate. Women are portrayed as women and thus are just the way they are. But men are portrayed as inadequate, and unless they learn the PUA secrets they will remain inadequate. This seems especially ridiculous to me since we are talking about a very natural function (mating), that was going on long before the PUA industry existed.

There are some good points that can be learned from the PUA community, so I wouldn't say that "the whole thing is just a scam". But I view it all with a great deal of suspicion and skepticism.

 

[squirrels]

The PUA "industry"...that's the key, right there. When this stopped being about a cluster of dudes trying to figure out how women work and the best way to seduce them and started becoming a "business", the usual strategies of advertising come into play to drum up demand. "You are imperfect...getting women will make you perfect...you will not get women until you buy my product".

It's not a "scam", it's just good business. The problem is that it takes something that was once very human and primal and personal and turns it into a "system"...thus we don't feel the same personal attachment to it as before, and we find ourselves wondering, "why are we putting so much energy into 'gaming'?"

Most people can't tell the difference between "true freedom" and "switching masters".

 

[Atom Smasher]

80% true IMO.

It is very telling that when I preach how men are trying to conform to the demands of the "entitled", massively disfunctional woman of today, I am labelled by some of the young 'uns as misogynistic (somewhat understandable because they don't even have a CLUE about the reality that it wasn't always this way). We older guys have lived through the seventies and early eighties, and women were far more sane back then. Note that I say "far more" sane, not "sane".

The media onslaught of the past few decades has brainwashed both men and women to buy into feminism, and the destruction is becoming more and more obvious.

The real problem I see with the pu community is that most of us are trying to be all things to all women, to be universally attractive.

This is a sure recipe for either a life time of feeling inadequate OR a lifetime of shallowness, jumping from one meaningless partner to another.

Guys, this is not the natural order of things. It is totally unnatural and contrived for a man to strive to be attractive to most women. Imagine you are a beautifully shaped piece of clay. If you press yourself into women's present day demands and perceptions, you will take on that hideous, corrupted form. You will become more attractive to more pretentious skanks, but at what price? You will have lost your form (a man who is his own entity and who respects himself), and you will have taken the shape of women's decidedly corrupted expectations.

My advice is to reinvent yourself into that beautiful (in the artistic sense, not in the feminine sense) piece of clay. Reinvent yourself into a solid, unshakable man who WILL NOT press into societal expectations and therby assume her form.

You are not supposed to nor are you designed to attract all or most females. In the natural, you are only going to attract a small percentage. But that small percentage are the real ones with whom you have true compatibility. Why should we conform ourselves to societal demands? Is that the way of a true man? Hardly! We must maintain our form (or create that form if we have it not) and expect them to conform and mold themselves around us.

 

[Mike32ct]

Zekko is spot on.

1. You are taught to go after 9s and 10s because they are "quality women" by Community standards. You constantly have to prove that you have enough "value" to get them, ie they are above you. But Community guys aren't putting women on pedistals lol.

2. Yes it is a cult. If you don't believe me join a lair. Even pickup gurus foster the "I'm your leader. Only listen to me. The rest of the world is corrupt and dangerous" mindset. I'm exaggerating slightly to clarify my point.

3. You are taught that EVERYTHING is your fault in pickup. It doesn't matter if she wasn't attracted to you and was surrounded by 12 huge guys including her boyfriend. You should still have been able to pull her since you ordered the xyz method lol. Look I'm all for taking full responsibility for yourself, but you need to be realistc in this game. Sometimes you really did do your best gaming a girl and she just wasn't into you or you really were in a no-win situation and had to eject. It's ok, really.

 

[thirdtimescharm]

Anything you can learn from the "industry" can be learned for FREE, on this board.

 

[vatoloco]

The thing is that people are lazy. Men want a "magic pill" that will make them better with women in a short period of time and these "programs" offer that "promised land of babes and honey"... if you come to our seminars and give us a large quantity of money!

What men don't realize is that once they become a better man, things will eventually start falling into place. Not only with women, but with life, family, business, etc.

But again, we humans are a lazy species...

 

[DanelMadr]

I agree with you guys.

It is funny how for example David DeAngelo finally came to the conclusion that only Inner Game (being a strong, balanced Man) matters and that all what he did before were just crutches and acting. I am so happy that I discarded the NLP bs just after reading the first page and realizing it is bs.

However he still insists that you can learn the Inner Game by sheer knowledge of it e.g. reading/buying his material and incorporating it in your brain. Yes, it helps you to be aware of the psychological processes but there is no substitute for experiencing and overcoming fear and stressful situations.

PUA community lies....not everyone is able to pick whatever chic. I mean there are feminine men, submissive, introvert and ackward with so much baggage and huge egos it would take two lifetimes to "cure" them.

I absolutely hate the peacocking and PRIZE stuff and the mindset of making bed notches. And I disgust the pretenders and also those who use the manipulative tactics of attention wh0res.

PUA industry is the equivalent of 100 times bigger women's self esteem and How to keep him industry. Lots of BS.

The positive thing is, it is not politically correct industry and can people eventually send the right way. The rest will just shoot routines with aviator glasses on.

 

[zekko]

Yes it is a cult

Witness also the way pickup gurus and instructors are practically deified by their fanboy base.

I absolutely hate the peacocking and PRIZE stuff

I was checking out the RSD forum the other day. Apparently the "I am the prize" thing is no longer in fashion. They are now pushing the idea that you should approach as equals, and that if you get a lay, it is a win-win situation for both of you. You exchange equal value. Viewing yourself as the prize is seen as feeding the ego, which is of course against their new age type philosophies.

If we were dealing with real universal truths about men and women, the concepts wouldn't go in and out of style like they do.

Regarding the pedestal, the PUA community likes to blame the AFC for driving up the value of women, because he settles for and marries some fatty. But I've always thought the PUA drives up women's value more. Think about it: If a girl is a hottie, it doesn't matter if she is married, has a boyfriend, has c0ckblocker friends, is a a slvt, or a BPD. The PUA must have his turn with her, he must have sex with her. Then the next PUA does this with her, and the next. Seems like this behavior is going to convince an attractive woman that she is desireable to all men quicker than some chump settling for her fat friend.

 

[DanelMadr]

Witness also the way pickup gurus and instructors are practically deified by their fanboy base.


I was checking out the RSD forum the other day. Apparently the "I am the prize" thing is no longer in style. They are now pushing the idea that you should approach as equals, and that if you get a lay, it is a win-win situation for both of you. You exchange equal value. Viewing yourself as the prize is seen as feeding the ego, which is of course against their new age type philosophies.

If we were dealing with real universal truths about men and women, the concepts wouldn't go in and out of style like they do.

Yeah, that's right.

My view on these things is...you just know when you meet someone cool. I always ask myself is it a guy who would I like to have around in a trench of WWI? Or is it a boss I would trust to lead me to a battle? Is it a girl I would love to spend my life with? It is just rationalization. You just know it when you meet the cool people. Having said that, it is also true that you have higher expectations of people the more cool you are yourself.
Pretending to be cool can fool you for just a little while.

off note:
David DeAngelo and other experts say, that women can size you up right away, that they have the radar tuned up. BS. Girls have their radar just calibrated more to the wussy spectrum. Besides that they are hopeless in judging men and being arrogant pr!ck can make most of them moist right away.

Well, all I want to say, being balanced in all aspects of life, being strong so others can rely on you and treat life with humou is all that is to it, as we all know or suspect. The hard part is to getting rid of one's fears and baggages which requires being extremely sincere to oneself and sort of tough. And we shouldn't do that as means of 'picking up chicks'. Call that ulterior motive which backfires, because you have to be that way the all day, not just when talking to a chic. Of course it would be insincere not to acknowledge that reproduction is very important goal, though And that is the reason lot of guys just slip and their inner boy comes out, they panic try and make even bigger mess.

On other side....(there always is one, heh)
The scary truth is and I believe it to be right...when a girl catches you with you pants down so to speak and her respect for you is shattered...it can't be undone and in these days with all those options, girls vanish very quickly in first signs of weakness. So it helps to learn how to amplify your coolness, how to stand out of crowd, especially in city environment...no second chances.
So, being yourself is not like being yourself on rainy Sunday morning at home. You have to put some effort to seduction. It would be like girls without makeup and no flirting skills.

So, I thank PUA community (or better sosuave etc.) for telling me what is still OK and that pretending to be perfect nice would be husband is not OK. It is funny now, but in my younger days I felt something was wrong but I just wasn't sure. Nobody told me that teasing girls makes them hotter and I wouldn't dare to neg hit etc. That assurance just opened new world for me.

Actually one might say that it gave me confidence because I realized it wasn't me what was broken, it was just a lack of knowledge...heh what a mistake. Yeah lack of assurance did not help but guess what, there was something wrong with me after all. And now I knew what the missing part was. Repressed masculinity, maybe. Issues, for sure. Overprotective fragile ego, that too. Nothing huge but it still made my life miserable. And I thank God I didn't panic and married the first girl who had hots for me but who I did not love. Those marriages I see all around.

OK that was long. Hope it helps my alter ego who finds it or whatever.

 

[DanelMadr]

I think it's a scam because 99% of those pickup artists are nerds.

with a streak of sleaziness too.

'Those who can't do teach', applies here as well.

Who can make his business based on 'picking up girls'?

Well, the truth is I had to spend some time actually unlearning hard core the pick up stuff like attitude and tactics. It is hard to be cool when your brain is telling you ' Hey man, this is exactly the IOI you read about on sosuave' :]

 

[yuppaz]

I've helped guys to improve with women, for free in a group. It can be a major, major b*tch depending on how social they are right now. Even if they are social and know how to flirt sometimes they have issues with being sexual or don't have much charisma to be found. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with guys getting paid to actually help other guys out, but I have serious doubts about 1 boot camp and a few days making enough of a difference for someone to start having more success. Ya those guys will have WAY more success for real because they are approaching and approaching like mad men vs. average Joe but it's not strictly a numbers game at all. Also I DO agree that PUA dogma of you are not good enough or need to be more alpha etc. is for marketing purposes. Most guys I've helped have had THAT as the MAIN problem they have, it's low self esteem and lack of know how plain and simple. But then it's a major pain to change someone in those habitual behaviours and mind sets too, so even if you pay someone $10,000 for a month of consistent support THAT STICKS....it's probably worth it.

 

[JT7890]

Damn, Mature DJ where did you find this blog! I have been saying the same shyt this guy is saying in this blog since I been here, but the programming of the seduction community bleeps out all common sense with some of the guys around here.

I concluded that the entire, I mean the ENTIRE seduction, PUA, Don Juan, "this is how you get women" shyt is just utter bullshyt. Utter bullshyt.

I have said over and over, how can you make a theory on WOMEN when ALL WOMEN are NOT THE SAME? How can I make a theory on "women" in Hawaii when I've never been to Hawaii? How can a middle class white boy make a theory on "women" in Compton when he's never been to Compton?

How? Seduction community, "Sosuave.com", when you say "this and that will get you WOMEN" what fvcking women are you talking about? Everytime I ask this question, no one can answer it.

I think that's where the real seduction starts, and it's what type of women are you trying to attract, where do they live, what's the culture like over there. How many times have I said most of this shyt on this site WILL NOT work on black women?

Walk up in the club and do a "3 second rule" on a black chick, lol, go ahead I dare you.

 

[Solomon]

I concluded that the entire, I mean the ENTIRE seduction, PUA, Don Juan, "this is how you get women" shyt is just utter bullshyt. Utter bullshyt.

I have said over and over, how can you make a theory on WOMEN when ALL WOMEN are NOT THE SAME? How can I make a theory on "women" in Hawaii when I've never been to Hawaii? How can a middle class white boy make a theory on "women" in Compton when he's never been to Compton?

If it's all bullshyt then why you here? it seems like all your post are to bash this site, I sense a huge negative energy from you cause your posts are rarely positive. Believe it or not there is some good stuff here you just gotta decipher that through the b.s.

and 3 seconds work on a black chicks as well as white chicks(some it does, some it doesn't depends on the situation, and how tight your game is, attraction etc)....Field tested it

deuces!!

 

[Lexington]

All the information you need to become a PUA is available for free on this here website and many other forums all over the internet. There are no magical secrets out there that are available to only paying customers. Most of the paid PUA material is basically the same stuff we discuss here on these forums ad nauseam.

 

[Mike32ct]

The PUA stuff that I think is BS are the canned, commercial products that pickup gurus sell.

But I'm a big believer in Sosuave. Here were have guys that speak from experience, with a minimal amout of PUA routines and jargon.

JT7890: There are no 100 percent rules in this game. But through experience, guys do realize things that are GENERALLY true. They don't work on all women, but they work many times.

I don't care for the 3 second rule either. I think it can get a guy into a confrontation (ie fight) because that is NOT enough time to assess whether she is with a guy or not. But, the IDEA behind the rule is sound. Don't wait too long or you will look weak at best, creepy at worst.

But GENERALLY, women like guys that are confident, fun, athletic, etc. This site works on generalizations. For example, like f283000 and myself have said, generally female friends are not interested in helping you succeed with women.

I don't think anybody (other than commercial gurus lol) claims to have figured out ALL women or believes their "rules" are 100 percent.

 

[Rogue]

I concluded that the entire, I mean the ENTIRE seduction, PUA, Don Juan, "this is how you get women" shyt is just utter bullshyt. Utter bullshyt.

I have said over and over, how can you make a theory on WOMEN when ALL WOMEN are NOT THE SAME? How can I make a theory on "women" in Hawaii when I've never been to Hawaii? How can a middle class white boy make a theory on "women" in Compton when he's never been to Compton?

I defy you to defy properly calibrated kinesthetics as not a generally highly effective technique. Just in case you have a misconception of kino, it begins imperceptible, innocuous, and light. A light brush of the hand or upper shoulder, or a light brush of the body as you walk by. You then steadily, gradually, uppe the ante of touch, if touch is reciprocated, and touch will likely be reciprocated if there is interest. This has been field tested by myself and many others, and has the backing of empirical science.

And cut out the straw man arguments, okay?

 

[JT7890]

I don't care for the 3 second rule either. I think it can get a guy into a confrontation (ie fight) because that is NOT enough time to assess whether she is with a guy or not. But, the IDEA behind the rule is sound. Don't wait too long or you will look weak at best, creepy at worst.

Yes, that's one of the points I made in another thread, you number one don't even have time to know if the girl is with her boyfriend or not to just go walking up on some chick. But the "mentality" behind it being if you don't move NOW you will look weak, I disagree. How about you enjoy the space? Enjoy the venue? To walk in a damn club and IMMEDIATELY go after gaming chicks IS what's desperate, weak, and creepy. Goodness.

I defy you to defy properly calibrated kinesthetics as not a generally highly effective technique. Just in case you have a misconception of kino, it begins imperceptible, innocuous, and light. A light brush of the hand or upper shoulder, or a light brush of the body as you walk by. You then steadily, gradually, uppe the ante of touch, if touch is reciprocated, and touch will likely be reciprocated if there is interest. This has been field tested by myself and many others, and has the backing of empirical science.

I'm not against kino lol, but give me a break? If the girl isn't "feeling you" then ANY touching will come off creepy, no matter how light it is. If the girl IS feeling you, and you are NOT touching her or you are touching her all "lightly" she will wonder if you are gay or she might consider you not aggressive enough.

From my experience, once I see that the girl is "into me" I naturally just go into touching, massaging, or whatever like I would do to a girl that I'm dating. What's with the "building up" shyt? Building up to what? Either she's interested or not.

If it's all bullshyt then why you here? it seems like all your post are to bash this site, I sense a huge negative energy from you cause your posts are rarely positive. Believe it or not there is some good stuff here you just gotta decipher that through the b.s.

All my posts aren't negative, unless of course we are discussing the "establishment" seduction community mentality. If you filter through this site there are some goldmines here but they are mostly NOT related to seduction, meeting women, or women period! For example, the Health and Fitness section is awesome. The Anything Else section is awesome. But I'm sorry, the "advice on how to get women" here is awful. Majority of all of it.

How about you address my question earlier? I will repost it:

Seduction community, "Sosuave.com", when you say "this and that will get you WOMEN" what fvcking women are you talking about? Everytime I ask this question, no one can answer it.

I think that's where the real seduction starts, and it's what type of women are you trying to attract, where do they live, what's the culture like over there?

 

[Warrior74]

Yah. It's a business. I've done videos and promotional material for websites that promote PUA stuff. They know its a market and they target it and sell to it. They play on your fears and insecurities to make a buck and to pay guys like me (as I read in a Steven King novel I think, I grow fat on your fear!). Everything you need is either available for free, or in therapy. Not on a pick up artist site.

 

[Rogue]

I'm not against kino lol, but give me a break? If the girl isn't "feeling you" then ANY touching will come off creepy, no matter how light it is. If the girl IS feeling you, and you are NOT touching her or you are touching her all "lightly" she will wonder if you are gay or she might consider you not aggressive enough.

From my experience, once I see that the girl is "into me" I naturally just go into touching, massaging, or whatever like I would do to a girl that I'm dating. What's with the "building up" shyt? Building up to what? Either she's interested or not.

Kino does not creep out women when it's done properly. Women hate guys who are very touchy right off the bat, but kino begins as imperceptible. It's touch which nobody would think twice about. You could kino your grandma, mother, or sister at a birthday dinner party and they would never be wiser. It's inert. But potentially interested women will view kino as an invitation towards more touch and more obvious touch. You begin with safe areas of the body such as the hands and progressively work your way to more intimate areas and progressively work from light to heavier. Obviously, as with everything, context is important; meeting a slut at a house party will be different than the subtle nuances of a modest girl at a coffee shop.