Is the notion of "women & children first" the ultimate in shaming?

[Serialized3]

I'm usually pretty paternal and caring about children, but I can imagine that kids on a cruise ship are pretty much like this brat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZA8GrRmOaA&t=0m22s

 

[zekko]

This has nothing to do with shaming. It's just the tradition of the sea, a profession that used to be extremely hazardous (and is still not completely safe).

This tradition has been passed down from a time when women were viewed similarly as children. Men were considered to be more capable of braving dangers, and to have greater survival skills, therefore they made sure the weak were safe first. There's little more to it than that. I don't think there's any sort of attitude like "Oh, go on the lifeboat before me, since you are such a superior being and a goddess".

Now it may be that since women have claimed equality, perhaps this tradition should be looked at and overturned, or modified. But since it is such an old tradition from such a hard way of life, I imagine any such change would be very slow in coming.

 

[Bible_Belt]

It's just the tradition of the sea

I agree. And beyond that, it's the tradition of leadership. If you won't put yourself in harm's way for anyone else, that's fine, but then you have no business being in charge. The leader of the pack fights the stray dog - in this case the stray dog was the sea.

Whenever I've been on a cruise, they make everyone do the lifeboat drill. The men go to one side of the boat, and the women and children go to the other. I was always dubious about how well that would really work on a sinking ship. All of the men actually have to show the opposite of chivalry and leave their women and children on the other side of the ship, trusting their escape to the captain. Without trust in the captain and crew, the evacuation would fall into chaos, and people would die in the mass panic. That's the biggest danger of this incident - the next time a ship starts sinking, if the passengers don't trust their captain, more people are going to die.

Also relating to chivalry, it's more like "female passengers first" and not "women first," because they count female waitresses, maids, and laundry workers all as "crew." Ships didn't have female crew when rules like these came about, but it's not like we're going to let the big fat rich people drown for the sake of some immigrants.

 

[zekko]

And beyond that, it's the tradition of leadership. If you won't put yourself in harm's way for anyone else, that's fine, but then you have no business being in charge. The leader of the pack fights the stray dog - in this case the stray dog was the sea.

Right. They talk about the alpha male a lot here. Can you imagine your tribe being attacked by another tribe, and the first thing the alpha male does is run away?

I think another thing at work here is older guys like Atom Smasher and myself, we were raised to put others above ourselves. This was just part of the culture, and a type of morality that doesn't really exist anymore. Self sacrifice for the greater good. Now it's just everybody for themselves - I eat first, and everyone else get the hell out of the way. I'm the alpha and I will tool you out if you try to AMOG me - I'm the only one that matters.

 

[Burroughs]

'Women first' chivalry CAN ONLY WORK IF we return women to being the PROPERTY OF MEN.

If as a man YOU DON'T FULLY GRASP THIS...you will have a life of confusion and sorrow.

 

[DJDamage]

Leaving children aside, in the past in order for women to get certain rights and move up in society then they had to marry a man. Therefore the sacrifice of a woman being feminine & subordinate in a man's world was an admired trait and a necessary one. This sacrifice made by women to keep their role of wives/mothers should have been equally matched by men being their husbands/protectors.

Today we are living in a woman's world, the balanced has tilted in their favour and by feminists definition they ought to behave (and are behaving) this way in order to achieve "equality" which in actuality it turned into superiority. Physically women are still much more helpless when the sh1t hits the fan but they made a deal with the devil to sacrifice their femininity for a supposed "better life". If that is the case then its children first and only children that needs our sacrifice (by sacrifice I don't mean our lives but our help) when a ship goes down, after that its every man and woman for themselves.

I still laugh when I think about the movie Titanic. How the sappy AFC Leo who just met the slutty red head girl on the ship a few days ago was ready to give his life for this b1tch by freezing to death instead of pushing her fat ass slightly aside so he too can have some space on the floating piece of wood. If this happened in reality you know that the red head girl would move on with her life in no time and will be riding some other's dude c0ck while Leo's corpse gets eaten by fish on the bottom of the ocean floor. Good sacrifice buddy, it was worth it!

 

[zekko]

I do call bull$hit on the whole convention that women have managed to erect in the last 30 years. Women, like anyone else, will take full advantage of their position. This particular one is that women will lay claim to the benefits from both genders but leave all of the costs to men.

Yes, I defnitely agree with that.

I still laugh when I think about the movie Titanic. How the sappy AFC Leo who just met the slutty red head girl on the ship a few days ago was ready to give his life for this b1tch by freezing to death instead of pushing her fat ass slightly aside so he too can have some space on the floating piece of wood. If this happened in reality you know that the red head girl would move on with her life in no time and will be riding some other's dude c0ck while Leo's corpse gets eaten by fish on the bottom of the ocean floor. Good sacrifice buddy, it was worth

I've heard this discussed before. He tried to get up on the door, but it wasn't stable enough to support both of them. So his choice was to either let her stay on it, or to push her off into the sea and commandeer it himself. Is that what you would have done?

I suppose they could have tried taking turns on the door, but in that case they would have both been dead. You have to remember the Titanic sank in 1912, men were raised to be gentlemen, and feminism hadn't taken over yet. It was a different time. Now maybe her ex-fiance (Billy Zane) would have pushed her off the door.

By the way, I wonder why this "women and children first" idea applies to the sea, but not fire drills?

 

[Steffen]

I don't disagree about the captain. And I don't disagree about helping others either.

However it seems you are suggesting a man who looks out for himself first is weak?

And your notion that not helping a woman is the equivalent to ripping lifejackets off of women and children is laughable and typical of black and white feminist shaming methods.

Your statement, when boiled down to it's core, is essentially the same as an entitled womans thinking process. You are not a man if you do not sacrifice yourself for me.

This.

And that's why conservatives (traditionalists) usually make such LOUSY men's rights proponents. They are basically not concerned with equality at all, but rather with advocating silly, old-fashioned, traditionalist - and in this context that is to say, chivalristic - ideas. Thus not helping men's rights, but rather obstructing them.

I daresay that most feminists, even though obviously suffering from selective perception and indignation, would make far better potential allies in the struggle for men's rights than most conservatives.

I do agree that there is some inherent tension between leadership (a masculine trait) and equal treatment. But the simple traditional solution (i.e. women first, men die) is clearly not the right solution. Leadership in a social sense should not mean blind sacrifice in matters of live and death, just because of one's gender.

 

[iwanttofight]

F"ck it this world is soooo overpopulated that it does not matter, mother nature is happy when the (aliens) us human die

 

[ilikecharlene]

Well, speaking as a man, I don't see why any woman has any more right to exist than I or any other of our gender. Essentially, this is what the "women and children" first thing means and how the media were portraying this. I think on many levels, it's not compatible with modern values.

I just feel if we believe in social equality (no racism, no sexism, no homophobia, no classism, etc.) then we cannot pick and choose when to apply this. Either that, or we revert to medieval feudalism, 18th century slavery, copy India and have a caste system. lol...

 

[Atom Smasher]

The idea isn't that she has more of a right to exist. Rather, it's the thought that women and children don't have the physical strength or mental wherewithall to act appropriately and save themselves.

Ever notice what women generally do in emergency situations? They become paralyzed with fear. They simply can't think of what to do. We are capable of making instantaneous decisions, and they are not. Of course there is a small percentage of exceptions but this is generally true.

This used to be obvious to all but the media has created the illusion that women have equal mental and physical capacities. But they will be the first ones to embrace "women and children 1st" when their lives depend on it, won't they? Funny how that works.

 

[zekko]

I agree with Atom Smasher here. The idea isn't that she has more of a right to exist, it's that she is weaker and doesn't have the strength, courage, and ability to save herself as well as a man.

This may very well be an outdated idea, I don't know. But seafaring is an international pursuit, and not all countries embrace feminism. Changing the "law of the sea" might be difficult for that reason.

Now if I had the same attitude as some here, I might be trying to have the law changed to "Zekko off the ship first, then everybody else".

 

[koc]

Ever notice what women generally do in emergency situations? They become paralyzed with fear. They simply can't think of what to do. We are capable of making instantaneous decisions, and they are not. Of course there is a small percentage of exceptions but this is generally true.

But ist this my problem?

What will i do in this situation? I save my wife first, then my kids, ( this is my "tribe", then myself.