Is it possible that a woman is interested in you, but does not need/want to text with you?

[joaquin]

It’s hard to say—it depends on several factors: when you last communicated, the topic of discussion, who initiated the conversation, how eager you seemed, how it ended, how often you’ve interacted (e.g., watching her stories), etc. It’s possible you’ve already used up all the bullets in your chamber.

How many other women are you talking to? Be honest—does it feel like the ball isn’t in your court? It sounds like you might be experiencing “oneitis” because she’s pulling away. For now, I’m holding off on suggesting what to do because the more you overtly pursue someone, the more likely you are to push them away. Attention can be flattering at first, but if overdone, it risks becoming cloying, overwhelming, or even unattractive.

If she’s delaying her responses, she may be signaling that she’s not interested. If that’s the case, there’s not much you can do to change her feelings. Accept it and take this as a chance to learn and grow.

We last spoke over that call 6 days ago. We did not text in the meantime since I recognized I needed to slow down on the communication. I will see her in 3 days at the office.

Regarding the messages, she responded well to my messages—it's not like she ignored them. She used emojis, asked some questions here and there, and so on. The thing is that she doesn’t take the initiative. As I said, during our call, she mentioned that she doesn’t like texting or chatting much, which I am still skeptical, but I have to admit she’s always been this way from the start.
On the call, I didn’t feel like she was trying to rush off. We talked for 30 minutes, and I was the one who eventually said, "I have to go now".
I just feel communication is not one of her strengths.

Honestly, I am talking with 2 other girls - one is a "done-deal", the other seems interested and initiates interactions.
Sometimes it works like this... the girl you have the biggest crush on (the one we're talking about) is often the one you end up making the most mistakes with. But let’s see how it goes now...

 

[joaquin]

Just for clarity, my advice is to be reactive UNTIL you're back at the office. If you hear nothing and she's back in the office I would approach and see about rekindling and solidifying whatever you want your plans to be - I would not wait for her to come to you. My suggestion is to lead and be direct in person, and not blow up her phone if she's not responding.

Some women are very to-the-point over text. In my experience, they are usually wanting a more casual relationship, which can be good or bad depending on your intentions. She could also be worried you're too invested in her, or even be wanting to keep it on the low since you're co-workers.

In any case, the best way to cut through the BS and get your answer would be by talking to her in person when you're both back.

We last spoke over that call 6 days ago. We did not text in the meantime since I recognized I needed to slow down on the communication. I will see her in 3 days at the office.

I will just invite her out and check how we stand based on her response. I will not plan any weird script, I will just approach her naturally and invite her out, so it will just come out in the moment.

 

[Sega Genesis]

She responded well to my messages—it's not like she completely ignored them. She used emojis, asked some questions, and so on. The issue is that she doesn’t take the initiative. During our call, she mentioned that she doesn’t like texting or chatting much, which I find hard to believe, but I have to admit she’s always been this way from the beginning...

On the call, though, I didn’t feel like she was trying to rush off. We talked for 30 minutes, and I was the one who eventually said, "I have to go now".

^^All this seems like high interest to me.

There is a highly regarded woman on this forum @BeExcellent ) who believes strongly that "men pursue/women respond" at least during early stages. .

She has posted that she takes NO or very little initiative (texting, calling, asking him out) for the few months as a way to gauge his interest level in her.

This is even when HER interest level was high.

Seems to have worked quite well for her!

Perhaps if she reads this, she will chime in.

 

[Clockwerk50]

We last spoke over that call 6 days ago. We did not text in the meantime since I recognized I needed to slow down on the communication. I will see her in 3 days at the office.

Regarding the messages, she responded well to my messages—it's not like she ignored them. She used emojis, asked some questions here and there, and so on. The thing is that she doesn’t take the initiative. As I said, during our call, she mentioned that she doesn’t like texting or chatting much, which I am still skeptical, but I have to admit she’s always been this way from the start.
On the call, I didn’t feel like she was trying to rush off. We talked for 30 minutes, and I was the one who eventually said, "I have to go now".
I just feel communication is not one of her strengths.

Honestly, I am talking with 2 other girls - one is a "done-deal", the other seems interested and initiates interactions.
Sometimes it works like this... the girl you have the biggest crush on (the one we're talking about) is often the one you end up making the most mistakes with. But let’s see how it goes now...

That sounds good. Follow BPH’s advice. Either look for her in person or text her to gauge her reaction. Here’s an example of how you could approach it:

You: Hey, how’s it going?
Her: I’m good, and you?
You: I’m good, thanks. It’s been a while—how have you been?
Her: [comments about her break]
You: Yeah, it feels like I haven’t spoken to you in forever. I could have disappeared, or the company could have fired me, and you wouldn’t have even noticed! (LOL)
Her: [Either continues the joke or gives a neutral response]
You: Listen, I feel like we need to catch up. We need to go for lunch when you have settled down. There’s this great restaurant nearby I think you’d love. Or, if it’s easier, how about bowling this weekend? I know a super fun spot with lights, drinks, pins, and, of course, tons of balls (LOL). No pressure—just let me know if you’re interested once you’ve caught up on all those emails. Take care!

If she’s interested, she’ll make the effort to meet you, especially if you present the plan as fun and exciting. That’s a strong indicator of high interest.

If she doesn’t respond back or gives you a vague answer, take it as a stop sign. If you see her around the office, stay polite, crack some jokes, and don’t take it personally. Most importantly, never bring it up again. She may not be interested and might just prefer to keep things professional—or continue as FWB on her terms.

Good luck!

 

[Sega Genesis]

You: Yeah, it feels like I haven’t spoken to you in forever. I could have disappeared, or the company could have fired me, and you wouldn’t have even noticed! (LOL)

JMO but best to leave this^ part out. It comes off as insecure and needing reassurance even though it's disguised as a 'joke.'

You're a confident busy guy, you shouldn't even be noticing how long it's been, let HER notice!

I'm female BTW.

 

[joaquin]

^^All this seems like high interest to me.

There is a highly regarded woman on this forum @BeExcellent ) who believes strongly that "men pursue/women respond" at least during early stages. .

She has posted that she takes NO or very little initiative (texting, calling, asking him out) for the few months as a way to gauge his interest level in her.

This is even when HER interest level was high.

Seems to have worked quite well for her!

Perhaps if she reads this, she will chime in.

Thanks for your input!
It's interesting to hear that this is a common technique used by women. It seems quite effective, indeed haha

Just to give a bit of context about the call—though I don't think it will change your view, but here it is anyway...
I randomly called her on a Friday at 3 PM, and she didn’t pick up. Later, around 6 PM, she sent me a video of a ski resort with the message, “I was skiing ” (she had mentioned she was going skiing over the Christmas break, but I didn’t know exactly when). She did not immediately call back or suggested a time to call.
I replied that it was fine and we could talk once she was back home. She then said, “If it’s something urgent, we can talk today.” I replied, “Nothing urgent ”
After that, we just scheduled a day and time to chat a few days later. Maybe that’s part of the reason she didn’t rush to end the call.

 

[joaquin]

That sounds good. Follow BPH’s advice. Either look for her in person or text her to gauge her reaction. Here’s an example of how you could approach it:

You: Hey, how’s it going?
Her: I’m good, and you?
You: I’m good, thanks. It’s been a while—how have you been?
Her: [comments about her break]
You: Yeah, it feels like I haven’t spoken to you in forever. I could have disappeared, or the company could have fired me, and you wouldn’t have even noticed! (LOL)
Her: [Either continues the joke or gives a neutral response]
You: Listen, I feel like we need to catch up. We need to go for lunch when you have settled down. There’s this great restaurant nearby I think you’d love. Or, if it’s easier, how about bowling this weekend? I know a super fun spot with lights, drinks, pins, and, of course, tons of balls (LOL). No pressure—just let me know if you’re interested once you’ve caught up on all those emails. Take care!

If she’s interested, she’ll make the effort to meet you, especially if you present the plan as fun and exciting. That’s a strong indicator of high interest.

If she doesn’t respond back or gives you a vague answer, take it as a stop sign. If you see her around the office, stay polite, crack some jokes, and don’t take it personally. Most importantly, never bring it up again. She may not be interested and might just prefer to keep things professional—or continue as FWB on her terms.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot
But definetly I will do this in person, I am sure it can work better for me

 

[BeExcellent]

Advice from the old lady:

Thank you @Sega Genesis as you are correct about my modus operandi. Let me explain my strong belief, and why.

Firstly it is NOT a contrived thing nor a manipulative thing. More on that below....Perhaps part of my view is old fashioned, I know there are youmger generation folk who will say I'm old and out of touch at 55, but there are socially conservative women all over the world who were taught by their elders that women should not chase men. I believe this very strongly and live this in my relationships. It is also what I have taught my children (age 22-son, 19 & 16 daughters).

Here is why it matters:

1. Men are wired to hunt things; to achieve and conquest things. Where is the thrill of the hunt if the prey chases after the man and throws herself at him? This is how women get labelled "easy". And many an "easy" woman has been dumped without ceremony for a woman who is "harder to get" and therefore percieved as more valuable.

2. The male role is to pursue, seek, initiate; the female role is to respond. Man asks her out or texts or calls; woman says yes, responds or takes his call. This creates a (+) feedback loop with the right dynamic. If a relationship ensues this dynamic develops into the man leading and the woman supporting.

Don't accept a woman who is used to doing the masculine role of initiation and leadership and then come crying here why you have a ball buster chick who wears the pants in the interaction. Um you were too scared or confident to go lead, so you end up emasculated and in the female role. Not good.

3. We love what we invest in. Look for a man who assigns the woman enough value to invest in her. If a man is making an investment (time/effort/resources) then he will be able to fall in love with her organically, because love follows investment. The woman should be responding in kind by also investing in him as things develop.

Now. As a woman it is important to bring value to the man; to be worthy of his interest/investment. That means be as physically attractive as one can, trim weight, pleasant attitude, kind demeanor, appropriate dress, character in behavior, etc. Some men like intelligence in a woman, some charm, some social adroitness....the list will vary depending on what a man seeks, but there is more to it than simply being female. It matters a great deal how a woman presents herself.

4. Men of high value are busy doing "man stuff" and should not be interrupted nor have their phone blown up by a woman. It is needy, annoying and a turn off. Men should reach out because they are interested, not feeling obligated to respond

5. You cannot as a woman maintain an air of mystery if the man knows everything about the woman and/or her whereabouts. This douses desire. Men in particular need to have enough space to think about the woman when she isn't around; to wonder what she is up to. From that headspace comes initiative to contact her at his convenience and desire to interact. Again, this lays the groundwork for the correct foundational relationship dynamic.

My grandmother taught me this. She was successfully married (and widowed) twice. First time a 25 year marriage, second time a 33 year marriage. She was single for 18 years between marriages. Her first at age 18, her second at age 61. And she was always beautiful and a great asset to her husbands, who both adored and admired her.

Food for thought.

 

[BeExcellent]

Essentially gentlemen, stop expecting the woman to do your job. Be a man; lead. Give the woman something to follow; something to respond to.

 

[joaquin]

Advice from the old lady:

Thank you @Sega Genesis as you are correct about my modus operandi. Let me explain my strong belief, and why.

Firstly it is NOT a contrived thing nor a manipulative thing. More on that below....Perhaps part of my view is old fashioned, I know there are youmger generation folk who will say I'm old and out of touch at 55, but there are socially conservative women all over the world who were taught by their elders that women should not chase men. I believe this very strongly and live this in my relationships. It is also what I have taught my children (age 22-son, 19 & 16 daughters).

Here is why it matters:

1. Men are wired to hunt things; to achieve and conquest things. Where is the thrill of the hunt if the prey chases after the man and throws herself at him? This is how women get labelled "easy". And many an "easy" woman has been dumped without ceremony for a woman who is "harder to get" and therefore percieved as more valuable.

2. The male role is to pursue, seek, initiate; the female role is to respond. Man asks her out or texts or calls; woman says yes, responds or takes his call. This creates a (+) feedback loop with the right dynamic. If a relationship ensues this dynamic develops into the man leading and the woman supporting.

Don't accept a woman who is used to doing the masculine role of initiation and leadership and then come crying here why you have a ball buster chick who wears the pants in the interaction. Um you were too scared or confident to go lead, so you end up emasculated and in the female role. Not good.

3. We love what we invest in. Look for a man who assigns the woman enough value to invest in her. If a man is making an investment (time/effort/resources) then he will be able to fall in love with her organically, because love follows investment. The woman should be responding in kind by also investing in him as things develop.

Now. As a woman it is important to bring value to the man; to be worthy of his interest/investment. That means be as physically attractive as one can, trim weight, pleasant attitude, kind demeanor, appropriate dress, character in behavior, etc. Some men like intelligence in a woman, some charm, some social adroitness....the list will vary depending on what a man seeks, but there is more to it than simply being female. It matters a great deal how a woman presents herself.

4. Men of high value are busy doing "man stuff" and should not be interrupted nor have their phone blown up by a woman. It is needy, annoying and a turn off. Men should reach out because they are interested, not feeling obligated to respond

5. You cannot as a woman maintain an air of mystery if the man knows everything about the woman and/or her whereabouts. This douses desire. Men in particular need to have enough space to think about the woman when she isn't around; to wonder what she is up to. From that headspace comes initiative to contact her at his convenience and desire to interact. Again, this lays the groundwork for the correct foundational relationship dynamic.

My grandmother taught me this. She was successfully married (and widowed) twice. First time a 25 year marriage, second time a 33 year marriage. She was single for 18 years between marriages. Her first at age 18, her second at age 61. And she was always beautiful and a great asset to her husbands, who both adored and admired her.

Food for thought.

Great, that makes perfect sense. As pursuers, we tend to value what’s harder to get.
Therefore, a woman might be interested in a man but won’t take the initiative, as a way of increasing her perceived value.

Additionally, something you mentioned about "socially conservative women" makes more sense now. Even though younger generations are different, this girl is from Slovenia, which is part of "Eastern Europe". Women from that region tend to have more traditional views on relationships. She even told me once, “I expect guys to pay for dates. If I don’t like the guy, I’ll ask to split the bill to make it clear it’s not a date.”

I was a bit confused because, in my experience, the women I interact with typically show their interest directly, without giving much room for interpretation (maybe they do not understand this dynamic). But I see now that this is something new to learn.

We last spoke seven days ago. In two days, I’ll see her in person at the office, and I plan to invite her out then. At this point, texting does not seem needed. Let me know if you have a different view.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Additionally, something you mentioned about "socially conservative women" makes more sense now. Even though younger generations are different, this girl is from Slovenia, which is part of "Eastern Europe". Women from that region tend to have more traditional views on relationships. She even told me once, “I expect guys to pay for dates. If I don’t like the guy, I’ll ask to split the bill to make it clear it’s not a date.”

@joaquin my background is Easten European as well, Lithuania, and was raised with these same traditional values.

For me it's less of a "strategy" and more about
"masculine/feminine polarity," that type of dynamic turns me on a primitive biological level and for the type of man I'm drawn to, him as well!

That said, I can be flexible and when I'm dating a man and into him (obviously I wouldn't be dating him if I weren't), I do take some initiative, like texting and occasionsly suggesting something fun to do.

But with regard to your thread title, best to not read too much into that, she is positively responding to your pursuit, focus on that.

That said, I'm not sure what to make of her comment "I expect guys to pay for dates."

When did she say this?

Personally, I would never say this to a man I'm dating. Never ever.

First off because I don't expect it. The only thing I expect is that he's genuine and authentic and I observe his actions to determine if they fit with my values. HE should be doing same with me!

If they don't then I consider whether or not I wish to continue dating him.

I dunno, I'm wondering what Be's take is on her comment. It just doesn't sit well with me, it comes off entitled. JMO.

Sorry, didn't mean to toss a negative!

Continue your pursuit, continue dating and continue observing.

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[SW15]

@joaquin did get to have sex with her, so that's a good thing.

Agree with @New_Journey that texting is primarily for logistics and is best to be minimized. Phone conversation and real life conversations are superior.

If a woman is interested, she wants to interact with you.

 

[joaquin]

@joaquin my background is Easten European as well, Lithuania, and was raised with these same traditional values.

For me it's less of a "strategy" and more about
"masculine/feminine polarity," that type of dynamic turns me on a primitive biological level and for the type of man I'm drawn to, him as well!

That said, I can be flexible and when I'm dating a man and into him (obviously I wouldn't be dating him if I weren't), I do take some initiative, like texting and occasionsly suggesting something fun to do.

But with regard to your thread title, best to not read too much into that, she is positively responding to your pursuit, focus on that.

That said, I'm not sure what to make of her comment "I expect guys to pay for dates."

When did she say this?

Personally, I would never say this to a man I'm dating. Never ever.

First off because I don't expect it. The only thing I expect is that he's genuine and authentic and I observe his actions to determine if they fit with my values. HE should be doing same with me!

If they don't then I consider whether or not I wish to continue dating him.

I dunno, I'm wondering what Be's take is on her comment. It just doesn't sit well with me, it comes off entitled. JMO.

Sorry, didn't mean to toss a negative!

Continue your pursuit, continue dating and continue observing.

Good luck and keep us posted!

I get it now—it’s not something planned, just how you feel things should go.

As you mentioned, she’s generally responding positively to my advances. While she doesn’t text first, our interactions are positive as we discussed. I’ll get all answers on Wednesday when I ask her out.

About her comment on "expecting guys to pay for dates," she mentioned it during our first date, but context might be important:

We had a bet after a tennis match, where the winner chose the prize. I won, so I picked dinner with her. She booked a ramen place, but I suggested and booked a different, better Italian spot for the vibe, and she was fine with it.

Before dinner, I offered to pay or split the bill, but she insisted I deserved it since I won. At dinner, I offered again (it was not a cheap restaurant), but she still paid. That’s when the topic "who pays for dates" came in - and that´s when she said normally she expects guys to pay.

I joked, "So if you don’t like the guy, you split the bill, but if you reallyyyy like him, you pay the whole thing?" She laughed at that.

Afterward, we went to a bar, made out, and then I suggested going to my place. She hesitated but refused, saying we both had work the next day and that we should leave something for when we’re back from the Christmas break.
The next day was also the office christmas party, as I mentioned before, where we had sex outdoors.

That’s the full context behind her comment.

Just out of curiosity, she mentioned that if she had won the bet, the prize would be that I would take her a morning coffee everyday during January. To test her, I asked why she chose that - she laughed and could not articulate anything.

 

[joaquin]

@joaquin did get to have sex with her, so that's a good thing.

Agree with @New_Journey that texting is primarily for logistics and is best to be minimized. Phone conversation and real life conversations are superior.

If a woman is interested, she wants to interact with you.

Yes, 100% clear now.

Its the interaction part that is creating the whole discussion. The discussion is about initiative

 

[Sega Genesis]

I get it now—it’s not something planned, just how you feel things should go.

As you mentioned, she’s generally responding positively to my advances. While she doesn’t text first, our interactions are positive as we discussed. I’ll get all answers on Wednesday when I ask her out.

About her comment on "expecting guys to pay for dates," she mentioned it during our first date, but context might be important:

We had a bet after a tennis match, where the winner chose the prize. I won, so I picked dinner with her. She booked a ramen place, but I suggested and booked a different, better Italian spot for the vibe, and she was fine with it.

Before dinner, I offered to pay or split the bill, but she insisted I deserved it since I won. At dinner, I offered again (it was not a cheap restaurant), but she still paid. That’s when the topic "who pays for dates" came in - and that´s when she said normally she expects guys to pay.

I joked, "So if you don’t like the guy, you split the bill, but if you reallyyyy like him, you pay the whole thing?" She laughed at that.

Afterward, we went to a bar, made out, and then I suggested going to my place. She hesitated but refused, saying we both had work the next day and that we should leave something for when we’re back from the Christmas break.
The next day was also the office christmas party, as I mentioned before, where we had sex outdoors.

That’s the full context behind her comment.

Just out of curiosity, she mentioned that if she had won the bet, the prize would be that I would take her a morning coffee everyday during January. To test her, I asked why she chose that - she laughed and could not articulate anything.

Thanks, Just goes to show how important context is! Just keep doing what you're doing, sounds good. Playful!

Relax and enjoy the process, the journey and let it take you wherever it takes you.

 

[BeExcellent]

Normally I'd agree that her comment sounds entitled, but she was being more transparent and honest with you than that.

She expects a man to invest in her. That explains her expectation that the man typically pays. It also explains coffee every week of January had she won the bet. Investment of resources; investment of time. This demonstrates to her that you are interested enough that she is safe to respond, safe to reveal herself to you. She is working out your interest level, which is what wise women do. She is willing to also invest as you have seen. Take it one step at a time & you will be fine.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Normally I'd agree that her comment sounds entitled, but she was being more transparent and honest with you than that.

She expects a man to invest in her. That explains her expectation that the man typically pays. It also explains coffee every week of January had she won the bet. Investment of resources; investment of time. This demonstrates to her that you are interested enough that she is safe to respond, safe to reveal herself to you. She is working out your interest level, which is what wise women do. She is willing to also invest as you have seen. Take it one step at a time & you will be fine.

I agree @BeExcellent , I was speaking more towards her need to announce it to him - that she "expects" him to pay.

Best to keep that expectation to herself and simply observe his actions. My opinion.

A man shouldn't have to be told to pay because a woman expects it. Kinda defeats the purpose don't you think?

He should want to pay on his own (for the reasons you gave), and again she observes (silently), and if he doesn't meet that expectation, she can next him.

Just clarifying what I meant, other than that I agree with you.

 

[BeExcellent]

Yes, certainly @Sega Genesis . A gentleman and a lady is the ideal (with all the associated social graces intact). But in current times interactions have muddied, and thus exist less prevalence of social graces that were once standard. So you see more expression of expectations overtly, because one can no longer assume the other person knows the rules....and then one has to comprehend the intent (is she being entitled or is she being transparent or both as in this example). The erosion of social graces is part of the issue.

 

[Sega Genesis]

Yes, certainly @Sega Genesis . A gentleman and a lady is the ideal (with all the associated social graces intact). But in current times interactions have muddied, and thus exist less prevalence of social graces that were once standard. So you see more expression of expectations overtly, because one can no longer assume the other person knows the rules....and then one has to comprehend the intent (is she being entitled or is she being transparent or both as in this example). The erosion of social graces is part of the issue.

I understand, in fact I just discussed this with a friend and she agrees with you!

That it's best a woman lays out her expectations, clearly and succinctly, he's not a mind reader.

If he cares, he will meet those expectations.

Is that what you mean?

If so, I don't disagree although it's never been my style to tell a man what I need or expect.

Wrong or right, I'm more passive I guess.

During early stages, I simply observe quietly to see if our values match including who pays. If they don't, it's next. He should be doing same.

Telling a man what I expect sounds heavy-handed imo, a bit "masculine" for lack of a better way of describing. Akin to me leading, him following. It's what I would expect a man to do!

That said, I have a lot of respect for you, you're happily married, something I have not found yet (I had a brief marriage, now divorced), so I'm gonna rethink my mindset about it.

Thanks!

 

[BeExcellent]

I understand, in fact I just discussed this with a friend and she agrees with you!

That it's best a woman lays out her expectations, clearly and succinctly, he's not a mind reader.

If he cares, he will meet those expectations.

Is that what you mean?

If so, I don't disagree although it's never been my style to tell a man what I need or expect.

Wrong or right, I'm more passive I guess.

During early stages, I simply observe quietly to see if our values match including who pays. If they don't, it's next. He should be doing same.

Telling a man what I expect sounds heavy-handed imo, a bit "masculine" for lack of a better way of describing. Akin to me leading, him following. It's what I would expect a man to do!

That said, I have a lot of respect for you, you're happily married, something I have not found yet (I had a brief marriage, now divorced), so I'm gonna rethink my mindset about it.

Thanks!

Well to be clear, I'm more passive and observational, like you are. I think that's the best way to be and the most feminine way also. I expect the man to initiate and pursue and act like a gentleman. I observe and respond positively.

And as you may have noticed I catch a lot of heat around here for promoting that more receptive, feminine way of existing.

Some of the guys here expect women to initiate, to chase/pursue, and essentially assume the male role.

Then the same men get offended when a woman overtly states her expectations.

That's what I mean about "muddiness". Men cannot expect women to be so assertive to initiate and pursue, but then get bent when the girl (in this example) states her expectation.

That is the erosion of social graces I'm talking about.

But I'm very old fashioned myself. If my husband had not initiated and pursued and kept initiating early on, we would not be together now. I would have never reached out to him in the beginning (I rarely initiate contact even now) and although I found him very attractive, I would have blown him right off in short order. Why? Because if a man doesn't have sufficient interest in me to make a move, he's not worth my time....and time is our most valuable asset.

So its not what I would ever do (I'd never tell a man I expect him to pay - that is not how an elegant woman operates, its not a classy move at all in my book) but that is to a degree where the erosion of social graces has led society as a whole. And that is the muddiness that people now are trying to navigate in my opinion.