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I'm doing everything right - but still no results

ogre

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And I don't know what to do and I'm goin' out of my f$&kin 'mind. GUys, I'm gonna hit the big 4-0 before the end of this year and I can't get a date for sh*t, let alone get in the pink. and I'm doin' EVERYTHING right, at least as far as I can tell according to all the DJ material available to me. I read thre DJ bible, I bought and Doc Love's system, I bought Derek Vitalio's material. I understand and comprehend fully about the inner game and the outer game. I'm new at the outer game, But I have the right attitude. I and I should be doing at least as well as if not better than the AFC's out there. I also read thorougly articles about the nature of female psychology on heretical.com and the evils of the feminist agenda on savethemales.ca . both sites I highly recommend for all DJ's. but anyway......

Since learning the DJ way I have NO PROBLEM talking to babes, really hot babes, and even hot young babes, even at my age. I can get a phone # or email no problem. hangin' out with my buddies they think I am a stud. Yet it never, ever comes to anything.

I expect that of course not every # I get is gonna become a date. but I do expect that if I have a good rap with a girl, and she shows interest, that we will get together. but those times that I do have a good rap, stupid stuff happens, from nowhere, and screws plans up.

After meeting a girl, there is a window of opportunity when she has interest. once it passes, it rarely comes back. So what happens in my case, and in every case, is that plans either fail or never get made due to stupid stuff like bad cellphone connection, or miscomunication or some other glitch, and eventually, even though she and I had originally "connected" when we met, attempts to reconnect become too tedious and I have gone from being "fun" in her subconcious mind to being tedious or difficult, even though it is of no fault of my own.

I have posted questions in the past about my problems with handling phone tag. but after today's incident (which I'm getting to,) I don't know what to make of it. this kind of bullsh*t happens to me EVERY SINGLE TIME. below is just a TYPICAL example. here goes:

I met this girl at a church function. (note: neither she nor I normally attend this church. I had bever seen her before) she's only 21, but showed a bit more interest then I would have expected. OK so far, I'll go with it. I meet other girls there too. (church functions are great place to meet babes)

Called her up about 3-4 days later, she was very happy to hear from me, was on the phone for about a minute, signal broke up before we had a chance to make plans. attempted to call back, I got voice mailed.

sent an email 3-4 days after that, to ask if I could meet her on a sunday afternoon after church. got no reply until Monday, when she apologized profuslely for not getting back to me sooner, apologized again for her bad phone connection, and asked me to call her anytime.

(OK, so she SEEMS to still have interest in me......)

called her the next day, she sounded really happy to hear from me (or so I would think) attempted to make plans for that evening, (no go - she had Youth Group, let out at 10:30 and was 1 hr drive in the opposite direction, so I said skip it) so the we were figuring maybe Sunday @ her church. but the she wanted her mother to come along (which I said would be kinda weird, I can only carry one passenger on my motorcycle) but anyway I was able to extract from here the following intel:

1) she attends church "A" from 10-11:30 and sings in the choir. Mom does NOT attend.

2) she then goes to church "B" for mass from 1 to about 2:30 to 3PM, with mom.

So anyway, conversation continues, we were just discussing Saturday as a possibility when her cellphone connection broke up again. So again, no plans were made.

btw, I made this call from a friend's office. he was present the whole time I while was taking down notes as to where I could track the girl down. I figured I'd just show up at here church "A" unannouced and surprise her.

So.....

Sunday I go to church "A", @ around 10:30. there was no choir, and no her. Pastor said they haven't had a choir since the summer.

later I go to church "B" got there around 2 PM, they DO have a choir, but mass just let out, and she was again MIA.

I KNOW I took my notes down correctly, no doubt, and had my friend there as witness. But I figger, never underestimate the insanity of the female mind. Christian or not, they are all insane. So I figgered I'd go over to church "A", maybe she told me wrong and got "A" and "B" crossed. So I did, got there @ 2:15, but mass already let out. I KNOW she said 2:30 to 3PM.

I figure she's prob'ly across the street at the diner with mom, that's where all the church-goers go after mass. but I do NOT go in, by this time I feel like a stalker and a total loser. I am walking back to my car alone looking and feeling very much out-of-place. I hope to GOD she did not look out the diner window and see me.

Now bear in mind guys, the above reported incedent is TYPICAL for me. Why would she show apparent high interest yet give me bad intel? is she really that stupid or insane? or is she really very clever, knowingly dispensing bad intel for the purpose of blowing me off? If it's not one thing it's another. Always, as with my last posts about phone tag, I end up with nothing. Am I doing something wrong?
 

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So Many Ways

Master Don Juan
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How's your phone game?

I know the traditional DJ/internet seduction guru/be a challenge advice for the phone is to keep the conversation short, make plans and get the f--- off the phone. I don't know about that approach.

Personally I've had better success building rapport and reestablishing a connection over the phone than doing the typical "'sup, let's get together thursday night for drinks, c u then, aight late" type approach has gotten me flakes, chicks showing up late, etc. When I actually take time to put in work over the phone, they're the ones to suggest the meet.

That's been my personal experience.
 

uniassign

Master Don Juan
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Ok, as much as all the commercial gurus tell you, to attract and keep quality chicks, you need more than "game".

As a man hitting middle age, you need social power, a good decent amount of money and a life to attact quality chicks into your life.

Do you have a good job? Does that job gets you respect?

What about money wise? Are you struggling or can you afford to throw money away?

Dress sense? Style?

What about hobbies and passions?

You see, for an older man, you have to come across as having DEPTH to you. You need to be important and busy with LIFE.

How are you closing these chicks? Are you setting something up BEFORE going for the number and emails? Or are you just saying "Nice talking to you, I have to go, what's your number?"

IME the latter doesn't work as well. You need to build in a shared activity to do with these chicks. Get them excited about doing XXX with you, AND THEN close. Also you need to qualify these girls before you get their number.

This is because if you don't qualify them, or have no shared activity, they will KNOW that you only want them for sex. You have to play the "game" that you are only getting together to "rockclimb" or "visit the art gallery" etc - rather than "meeting up for coffee".

What about during the initial interaction? Are you merely talking to them about crap? Are you getting attraction? Are you getting wide and deep rapport? How long do you talk to them for? You need at least 45 minutes at night time to get a solid number and 30 minutes during the day.

With younger chicks, you have to distinguish yourself from your much younger competition. I usually do that by playing my social status card. Young guys cannot take the HBs to corporate boxes at premier events, nice cars, jumping queues at clubs etc.

What works for me is email AND phone. Build rapport and familiarity over email during the course of a week or two, and then call to set something up.
 

Alpine

Master Don Juan
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Some good advice above.

Hang on, Church babes? Friendly, but don't let you in their knickers, no sh1t.

If you are talking to women and they are generally friendly, could it be they are labelling you, 'friend' straight away, maybe you need to be a bit less friendlike and more shagable like.

To me you are doing well, it's your target audience and your qualifying that's the trouble.
 

ogre

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So Many Ways,

my phone game still needs a lot of work, in general. I'm nervous, because when I actually get a girl on the phone LIVE and IN PERSON, not the voice-mail, I feel like the pressure is really on to close a date. At any moment, without warning, the cellphone connection could just cut us off. This happens often. Apparenly no one uses an ordinary land-line telephone anymore. And if I don't close a date in that one call, I may never get a 2nd chance. Her interest will fade away, and it'll be voice-mail from thereon. so yeah, under the circumstances, I get a case of the jitters. and I'm sure that the girls I call can feel it, if not conciously, then subconciously. which just makes things worse.

I do make some convo towards building rapport, but as much as I'd like to relax and shoot the sh*t, it's hard to feel relaxed when there's an axe standing over our phone connection (metaphorically speaking) that could drop any second. Once I see her (any girl) again in person I know I'll do fine. If only I could get the chance.......
 
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ogre

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uniassign,

most of the points you cover I'm OK on. Yeah, I have my sh*t together, maybe not as well as I should for a man my age, but certainly a lot better than your avg 25-yr old.

the only thing I MAY be weak on is that my inital meetings with these girls may only be 15 min, perhaps not enough time to establish a strong enough rap to weather the trials of phone and email tag. I always establish common interest in something, and that's what I build on, but I have yet to make a girl feel moist for me upon 1st meeting. Awright so maybe when I meet these girls they are putting me in the FZ from the get-go. So maybe my game still needs a lot of work before I can get girls to really respond.

And I can also try to build up an email rap, like you say, so when I do get a girl on the phone I won't be so damn nervous.
 

ogre

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Alpine,

yeah I think you got it, even though I do the f&c thing, making jokes and all, I still come off as Mr. Nice guy. I'm too damn nice, dammit!

nothing wrong with my target audience. that no-sex-before-marriage crap is just an excuse for not putting out. and church is just as good a venue for meeting babes as any other.
 

Francisco d'Anconia

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The problem is that you are adhering to the rule too closely. Where's the problem? Several people have mentioned it already, it's your phone game. If it's not working, why do you keep attempting to use it???:confused:

You say that you can approach well so I'll assume that your rapport with the ladies is on par. Now, your friends think that you're a stud so act like one. Forgo the phone number, buck the system and ask for a date straight away. This will help you skirt around the missed phone opportunities by not taking that road.

You'll need to prepare before hand. I usually have an idea of several different types of events that are upcoming that I would enjoy attending. It could be a comedy club, a really cool coffee house, a new club, midnight bowling, a new exhibit at a museum or just hanging out at the mall (yeah I do that, the largest mall in the US is 10 minutes from my house).

When I have qualified a woman and decide that I would like to see her again, I just tell her about an event or place that I'm going and ask if she's like to tag along. If I've read her correctly, her IL is high and she would like to see me again and she agrees. After that she usually gives me her telephone number without me asking. Yes, it's just that simple.

In a nutshell, understand your game to the point of being able to analyze what's working and what's not. THEN stop doing what isn't working and do something else. ;)
 

Maverick001

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ogre,

This girl has you so wound up, you're running around trying to "run" into her:

Sunday I go to church "A", @ around 10:30. there was no choir, and no her. Pastor said they haven't had a choir since the summer.

later I go to church "B" got there around 2 PM, they DO have a choir, but mass just let out, and she was again MIA.
But at least you realized it:

I figure she's prob'ly across the street at the diner with mom, that's where all the church-goers go after mass. but I do NOT go in, by this time I feel like a stalker and a total loser. I am walking back to my car alone looking and feeling very much out-of-place. I hope to GOD she did not look out the diner window and see me.
You're not a loser because you stopped yourself from checking the diner. Small victory but a victory nonetheless. KEEP THE ONEITIS IN CHECK.

Keep doing what works and change what doesn't.

Have fun and the girl(s) with you will too. Don't sweat it.

I like Francisco d'Anconia's suggestion about going for a date close right away. Why not be bold and daring? What do you have to lose?

Keep us posted on what happens.

Cheers,
Mav
 

uniassign

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I don't think it is a phone game problem.

the only thing I MAY be weak on is that my inital meetings with these girls may only be 15 min, perhaps not enough time to establish a strong enough rap to weather the trials of phone and email tag.

What do you talk about during that 15 minutes? If you are just shooting the sh!t, then they will mostly likely flake. Contrary to popular belief on this board, just because a chick talks to you doesn't mean she wants to f&*k you. During that 15 minutes you need to demonstrate values to her, demonstrate personality, attract her, qualify her and build rapport. That's asking alot in such a small time frame.

Try to buy more time. During the first 15 minutes, work to attract her, demonstrate value and build intrigue so that you can quickly get her to agree to sit down with you somewhere for a quick coffee. That way she is not thinking that she needs to get away. When she is sitting down, you have more time to attract, and build rapport for a solid number & email close (or to take things further).

but I have yet to make a girl feel moist for me upon 1st meeting.

I don't think you need to do that. Usually when you make a girl really attracted, she is going to flake because she doesn't want to be seen as a sl#t.

As for your phone game, try this:

During your first phone call, don't ask for a date or a meeting. Just call her up and tell her a funny story, make it that the funny story reminded you of her, and that's why you are telling it to her. Get her laughing and play with her on the phone a bit. Then do some light rapport. Then say you have to go and you will call her later.

Set up the meeting on the second call after some more rapport.
 
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