If you think that the 20:80 rule is rough, you haven't been around most men that "game"

[Jesse Pinkman]

Years ago, I would have thought that the whole 20% of guys getting 80% of girls rule was unfair or discouraging. Well, after more than a year gaming with a lot of guys in the Game community as well as being involved in Manosphere related communities for years, I completely get it. In fact, you should be thinking why the heck is it not more 10:90 or 5:95. Before all of the men's rights activists here jump on me, just hear me out. Here is what I have seen in my years in the game that has made me come to the conclusion that the 20:80 rule is actually quite generous, ESPECIALLY when you take the game community into account.

Most men do not have their sh*t together, ESPECIALLY dudes in the game community.

Most of us do not, in fact, I am still slightly out of shape and a month of being sick has set my workout schedule back a bit. However, it is not just the looks on a physical level. I have seen so many guys who do not have their sh*t together financially but are still:

1. "Daygaming" and "taking action" despite living with their moms/family past the age of 22. I have seen countless instances where dudes will live in the suburbs, more than 30 minutes away from a major city, but still commute in on weekends to "do game" (aka, cold approach uninterested women).

2. Spending money on dates with high maintenance women despite not having their own lives together.

It is not just financially though, it is also in other aspects.

Most men are hopelessly clingy and emotionally weak these days.

Prime example, the Black Pill community. Hordes of losers who cannot get laid but spend hours on the internet whining about the dating market. These guys can easily find a non-sex hobby and dedicate their lives to it but nooooooo, they have to dedicate hours of their day talking about women, sex, and game. It's not just the black pill community, even dudes who are in the "game" community are hopelessly clingy. I have had some wingmen spam text me and call me 3 times in a freaking day when I was inactive. I am like dude, if I feel uncomfortable with them, how the heck do you think an average woman feels?

It is even worse in the game community. I have winged with at least 10 guys in the past year who get jealous when they see a hot girl with another guy and then fume at how he got that girl. I am like dude, you are having an opportunity to learn game with the knowledge that is available and you are jealous of some random dude on the street? Okay, say he got his girlfriend through work, you should use your cold approach knowledge to talk to a ton of girls and you too can get a girlfriend like he got you freaking idiot!

But no, they want to whine and complain.

You will feel drained when talking to most men, especially those that get into "game", can you imagine how women feel?

I have had the chance to interact with quite a few men in the game community and the theme is the same:

1. Whine about how other men are meeting women and how unfair the dating market is

2. Whine about dating scene in the city they are in

3. Spam approach with the same freaking line over and over again and hope it sticks

4. Treat cold approach as a chore they have to do rather than the gift it can be when you do it right

5. Make zero effort into reading people and empathizing with their situation

6. Have a big ego to them despite their less than ideal circumstances for dating

That is how I and most sane men feel when talking to dudes who are into game and the whole manosphere, can you imagine how women with options will feel?

Most men are sensitive crybabies that cannot take criticism, this is especially true for the men that are struggling.

You want to know who is downright convinced that they know it at all about women and are right? Incels and Black Pill losers. The same morons who could not get a girl to save their lives and spend hours on the internet comparing distances between eyes are certain that they know more about women than guys that actually get them. In fact, this is true for 95% of men that struggle with women. They cannot be coached and they cannot be taught the right way because they are convinced that they know the right way.

For example, the game community I used to be a part of had a guy who would go out every day to approach and despite that, in a major city, did not get anything for weeks. Hands down the most stubborn guy I ever met because if you tried to help him, he called you out and threw a tantrum.

It is a miracle that most men even get results with women.

Outside of the obvious (super rich, super handsome, or super high status), it is a miracle that the vast majority of guys get girls.

20:80 should be more 10:90.

It is not just that the market has become rougher, we have to admit that the quality in men has become downright crappier.

 

[NealIRC]

I also feel like the 80/20 rule is false.

Lot of men are into ugly women too. Some men prefer women with small breasts, it's a wide variety of preferences. I've read some psychological studies that show every women is 10/10 to some guy out there.

 

[BadWatermelon]

Lot of men are into ugly women too. Some men prefer women with small breasts, it's a wide variety of preferences. I've read some psychological studies that show every women is 10/10 to some guy out there.

They aren't looking for Mrs. Right. They're looking for Mrs. Right Now.

 

[SW15]

Most men do not have their sh*t together, ESPECIALLY dudes in the game community.

Yes, this is true. The game community is a non-representative sample. The typical male is a blue pill beta male who never discovers the game community online. Very few men join online groups looking to find wingmen. Seduction lairs, which were more common in the 2000s, have all but died out.

1. "Daygaming" and "taking action" despite living with their moms/family past the age of 22. I have seen countless instances where dudes will live in the suburbs, more than 30 minutes away from a major city, but still commute in on weekends to "do game" (aka, cold approach uninterested women).

This is a bad idea and not worth doing.

2. Spending money on dates with high maintenance women despite not having their own lives together.

Plenty of men do this. Men take on the costs of most early stage dates. There are plenty of men buying first date drinks and first date dinners for women with higher salaries than they have.

Most men are hopelessly clingy and emotionally weak these days.

Prime example, the Black Pill community. Hordes of losers who cannot get laid but spend hours on the internet whining about the dating market. These guys can easily find a non-sex hobby and dedicate their lives to it but nooooooo, they have to dedicate hours of their day talking about women, sex, and game. It's not just the black pill community, even dudes who are in the "game" community are hopelessly clingy. I have had some wingmen spam text me and call me 3 times in a freaking day when I was inactive. I am like dude, if I feel uncomfortable with them, how the heck do you think an average woman feels?

It is even worse in the game community. I have winged with at least 10 guys in the past year who get jealous when they see a hot girl with another guy and then fume at how he got that girl. I am like dude, you are having an opportunity to learn game with the knowledge that is available and you are jealous of some random dude on the street? Okay, say he got his girlfriend through work, you should use your cold approach knowledge to talk to a ton of girls and you too can get a girlfriend like he got you freaking idiot!

You will feel drained when talking to most men, especially those that get into "game", can you imagine how women feel?

Most men are sensitive crybabies that cannot take criticism, this is especially true for the men that are struggling.

This is insightful. That's bad if a potential wingman doubles or triple texts a guy. If they did that with a woman, it would be far worse than doing that to a fellow wingman.

I think part of why men are clingier these days are weaker relationships with male friends and all family members. There's also a case that a lot of men have fewer hobbies too.

It is a miracle that most men even get results with women.

I don't think it's a miracle. This is how I see men get results with women if they are more beta. All these paths involve LTRs.

1. They "dumpster dive" on a swipe app. Dumpster diving is not a miracle.
2. They were able to get into a decent fraternity in college and pull a long term girlfriend out of a sorority OR they were a non-affiliated guy in college that somehow also got an LTR in college. That lasts for 5+ years. Maybe there's a marriage, maybe not. After that, their success depends on their stranger approaching abilities if they lack a social circle. I think this category of guys is less common than the next one I'll describe. If they have a social circle, they move into Category 3.
3. They have a social circle. A Millennial beta male with a social circle likely has a girlfriend/wife. A Millennial beta male without a social circle is likely an incel, borderline incel, and/or swipe app dumpster diver. Sometimes, a beta can get a social circle just by being an ordinary guy in the same city for decades. The beta owes a great deal of gratitude to his parents for not relocating him during his K-12 years and that beta stays in the same area as an adult, at most going away to college in a similar region. I've seen a number of cases like that.

the quality in men has become downright crappier.

Yes, the quality of men has become crappier. The quality of women has also become crappier. I've not seen the quality of men get crappier, but my non-representative social circles over time have had decent men in them. These men might not be top seducers, but they aren't the bottom tier guys.

It is not just that the market has become rougher

The market has become rougher over time. This has been discussed in other threads. It is a valid point and it can't be ignored.

 

[MatureDJ]

Years ago, I would have thought that the whole 20% of guys getting 80% of girls rule was unfair or discouraging. Well, after more than a year gaming with a lot of guys in the Game community as well as being involved in Manosphere related communities for years, I completely get it. In fact, you should be thinking why the heck is it not more 10:90 or 5:95.

I guess that now it's OVER for 95%Cels.

I have seen so many guys who do not have their sh*t together financially but are still:

1. "Daygaming" and "taking action" despite living with their moms/family past the age of 22. I have seen countless instances where dudes will live in the suburbs, more than 30 minutes away from a major city, but still commute in on weekends to "do game" (aka, cold approach uninterested women).

2. Spending money on dates with high maintenance women despite not having their own lives together.

What about HappyHourMaxxing for that suburban PUA? Is it really worth it spending twice as much on a place for a tiny studio? I guess such a man should just not have any hobbies (which generally require space) and devote all his agency to PUA ... Oh, and what type of young woman can equally afford to live in the city center? What about maidens that have their head on straight and live with their parents so as to save up money to spend on an eventual family?

And oh, I can personally attest that having one's sheet together seems to only help in attracting Chad's leftovers - i.e., { broke Chad } > { well-employed Normie }

Most men are hopelessly clingy and emotionally weak these days.

Prime example, the Black Pill community. Hordes of losers who cannot get laid but spend hours on the internet whining about the dating market. These guys can easily find a non-sex hobby and dedicate their lives to it but nooooooo, they have to dedicate hours of their day talking about women, sex, and game. It's not just the black pill community, even dudes who are in the "game" community are hopelessly clingy.

Normies are clingy because they know hard it is to get a good prospect. As for the hobby comment, it is possible to have a hobby and also spend time trying to socialize. Not sure who spends "hours a day" on forums like this, other than NEETMaxxers.

I have had some wingmen spam text me and call me 3 times in a freaking day when I was inactive. I am like dude, if I feel uncomfortable with them, how the heck do you think an average woman feels?

Evidently, these wingmen find more added value with you in the lair than you do them.

It is even worse in the game community. I have winged with at least 10 guys in the past year who get jealous when they see a hot girl with another guy and then fume at how he got that girl. I am like dude, you are having an opportunity to learn game with the knowledge that is available and you are jealous of some random dude on the street? Okay, say he got his girlfriend through work, you should use your cold approach knowledge to talk to a ton of girls and you too can get a girlfriend like he got you freaking idiot!

Men wing for the same reason thousands of years ago men hunted in packs.

You will feel drained when talking to most men, especially those that get into "game", can you imagine how women feel?

That's because Game itself is draining - it's like having a second job as a high-pressure salesman. Women feel drained talking to a low-tier man, but excited when talking to a high-tier one.

I have had the chance to interact with quite a few men in the game community and the theme is the same:

1. Whine about how other men are meeting women and how unfair the dating market is

2. Whine about dating scene in the city they are in

3. Spam approach with the same freaking line over and over again and hope it sticks

4. Treat cold approach as a chore they have to do rather than the gift it can be when you do it right

5. Make zero effort into reading people and empathizing with their situation

6. Have a big ego to them despite their less than ideal circumstances for dating

That is how I and most sane men feel when talking to dudes who are into game and the whole manosphere, can you imagine how women with options will feel?

I don't think these men are whining about Game when they talk to women. If they are, then they really are hopeless.

I'm not sure what you mean by #3. Are you saying that a PUA should recalibrate his PU line all the time? As for #5, I think it comes from the fact that they sense that all decent women don't want them, and so "empathizing" with them would mean not bothering them, and just becoming a monk. And it's #6 that keeps the drive alive after all the rejection; a man with a small ego just learns to live without poon. As for #2, the logical answer is to move to a better place - but how does a man find a place that really is better without moving around all the time? (I solved this by simply GeoMaxxing.) As for #4, cold approach *is* a chore, at least for Normies. #1 is a thing because everyone realizes that the dating paradigm 2 generations ago allowed for Normie men to get women.

Most men are sensitive crybabies that cannot take criticism, this is especially true for the men that are struggling.

You want to know who is downright convinced that they know it at all about women and are right? Incels and Black Pill losers.

What they know is that women don't want them - and they probably have gone through the PUA arc I had described, which would leave any reasonable man getting the Normie-experience thinking the situation is virtually hopeless. Grit is personality attribute that humans have developed to figure out a way to kill the enemy or kill the beast (or in today's era, get some payout from the rat-race); grit was not developed to be able to get a mate, and so it is unnatural for men to have to dig deep down for this.

The same morons who could not get a girl to save their lives and spend hours on the internet comparing distances between eyes are certain that they know more about women than guys that actually get them. In fact, this is true for 95% of men that struggle with women. They cannot be coached and they cannot be taught the right way because they are convinced that they know the right way.

For example, the game community I used to be a part of had a guy who would go out every day to approach and despite that, in a major city, did not get anything for weeks. Hands down the most stubborn guy I ever met because if you tried to help him, he called you out and threw a tantrum.

The "few millimeters of bone" meme is a meme because there is truth to it; as for the eyes, both hyper- & hypo- tolerism are indications of birth defects or otherwise bad genetics.

I will agree with you that someone that is striking out in PUA but still thinks he knows what works is being stupid. Perhaps the TantrumCel spent good money on a PUA bootcamp, and doesn't want to internalize the fact that he was foolish with his money.

It is a miracle that most men even get results with women.

Outside of the obvious (super rich, super handsome, or super high status), it is a miracle that the vast majority of guys get girls.

20:80 should be more 10:90.

It is not just that the market has become rougher, we have to admit that the quality in men has become downright crappier.

No, it's not the men that have become crappier - it's that a lot of women no longer feel bound to the monogamy zeitgeist, and a lot of the ones that are are fat or single mommies, making the dating market just awful. And the miracle is not going to happen just because everyone learns Game.

 

[CornbreadFed]

This is why I don’t care about the black pill cry wolf point about the countless amount of single sexless men. Most men are just garbage in general. Same for women!

 

[zekko]

Years ago, I would have thought that the whole 20% of guys getting 80% of girls rule was unfair or discouraging. Well, after more than a year gaming with a lot of guys in the Game community as well as being involved in Manosphere related communities for years, I completely get it. In fact, you should be thinking why the heck is it not more 10:90 or 5:95.

When I first started reading seduction studies, most people talked about it being 10: 90. Not long after, it became 20: 80, mainly because of the Pareto Principle I imagine, although 20:80 actually sounded more reasonable. Especially at that time, because there was no way that only one guy out of 10 was able to get a girl, shoot more than that were married.

Times have changed though. In my lifetime, women have gone from practically having to get married to survive, to now where the idea of the family is practically dead, and we're left with mostly a hookup culture. In fact, women now seem more interested in pursuing careers than men do. In prior times, women were more interested in settling with a reliable, stable guy with a good income. Now, with OLD especially, they can get by with a Chad to service their sexual needs.

 

[SW15]

cold approach *is* a chore, at least for Normies.

That's because Game itself is draining - it's like having a second job as a high-pressure salesman.

I can relate to this.

What about HappyHourMaxxing for that suburban PUA? Is it really worth it spending twice as much on a place for a tiny studio?

Weekday happy hours are some of the best nightlife venue options for men seeking to arrange dates from nightlife venues. For a man, living either alone or with roommates is a necessary part of attraction-seduction. Most men are highly penalized for living with their parents post-college age. There are occasional outlier cases like @BPH . If you're an adult male who is mid 20s+ living with your parents, there's a need to either have a great physique to compensate for it or have great verbal game + height/decent looks as Roosh did in his early 30s. Roosh's height is 6'0"+.

Getting Laid While Unemployed And Living In Your Dad’s Basement

What about maidens that have their head on straight and live with their parents so as to save up money to spend on an eventual family?

Women are not penalized in the sexual marketplace for living with their parents in the early to mid 20s and beyond.

Oh, and what type of young woman can equally afford to live in the city center?

In a lot of cities, women get 1 or more roommates to live in a desirable apartment complex in a desirable neighborhood.

I can personally attest that having one's sheet together seems to only help in attracting Chad's leftovers - i.e., { broke Chad } > { well-employed Normie }

This is accurate. The lesson here is to always raise your value and be as close to a 'Chad' as possible.

Normies are clingy because they know hard it is to get a good prospect.

This is true and beta male scarcity mentality at its worst. Men must exhibit abundance.

#1 is a thing because everyone realizes that the dating paradigm 2 generations ago allowed for Normie men to get women.

The Boomers were the last generation in the USA where normie men had a somewhat easy time getting girlfriends/wives. It was Gen X'ers who realized that Average Frustrated Chumps were at a disadvantage and coined the term Average Frustrated Chump. Gen X'er Neil Strauss was an incel/borderline due to his short height (5'6") and hair loss. When he got in PUA and became a master student, it was a significant moment in his life because he was early 30s at that time with 10+ years of failures to his name.

Incel and borderline status became more common in the Millennial generation that followed Gen X.

What they know is that women don't want them - and they probably have gone through the PUA arc I had described, which would leave any reasonable man getting the Normie-experience thinking the situation is virtually hopeless. Grit is personality attribute that humans have developed to figure out a way to kill the enemy or kill the beast (or in today's era, get some payout from the rat-race); grit was not developed to be able to get a mate, and so it is unnatural for men to have to dig deep down for this.

Truth

No, it's not the men that have become crappier - it's that a lot of women no longer feel bound to the monogamy zeitgeist, and a lot of the ones that are are fat or single mommies, making the dating market just awful. And the miracle is not going to happen just because everyone learns Game.

Learning Game is better than not learning Game in the current environment. Nevertheless, there is truth in this statement.