I would like to know your opinion about the social stigma related to being "greedy"

[Who Dares Win]

Correct me if Im wrong but it seems to me that nowadays the mainstream tough about taxes is the following:

"A man who is the sole responsible of his wealth due to his work and strongly oppose to unfair taxation is considered greedy while a man who is the sole responsible of his misery
due to his poor choices and expect the government to support him is a victim".

Which actually means that if something is yours and you want to keep it you are wrong while if you want something that you dont have its fair enough to expect a gang of bullies
to steal it(because take something from someone who doesnt wanna give it you is stealing) and share part of it with you.

Probably its me to being unsensitive or an a$$hole but from media to the academic world it seems this vision is not only the most respected but also enforced...
I feel this is a serious default in the system which regulate a society.

Am I missing anything?

 

[goundra]

nope, "from each accourding to his ability" is the motto of those who LACK ablity and want to steal what others have earned. better yet, they want armed go'vt bullies to steal it FOR them (from the unarmed), no risk to them at all.

 

[The Gambler]

No, I don't believe you're missing anything.

The United States has made it very comfortable to be a victim.... Your rent will be paid and you'll eat better than most middle-class working families. So, if you have no professional skills (thanks to your own lack of ambition), what would you rather do? Get a minimum wage job and decrease your standard of living, or just keep going the same way and let everyone else pay for you to sit home, eat bonbons and watching daytime TV shows?

 

[Stagger Lee]

But the problem is the only way you can keep what is "yours" or what you "earned" in the first place depends on who is controlling the payroll. If you are making a firm say 100's thousands of dollars a year but they're paying you only $20k they are basically taxing you too. They are claiming what you earned as their own.

 

[goundra]

while it's not quite that easy for most, that truly is too good a descripition of how good punks have it here. It was a HUGE mistake to give up the property requirement for voting, which the Founding Fathers first put into our Constitution. Also a big mistake to have direct voting for senators, and to let Fed judges sit on the bench for life. Back then, life meant 10 years, by the time you could be a judge. today, it means 50 years and the effects are horrendous

 

[The Gambler]

But the problem is the only way you can keep what is "yours" or what you "earned" in the first place depends on who is controlling the payroll. If you are making a firm say 100's thousands of dollars a year but they're paying you only $20k they are basically taxing you too. They are claiming what you earned as their own.

No one is being forced to work for someone else. If you believe your market value is higher than the job you currently have, you must decide whether you are happy with the status quo or go out and prove that you are worth more. The reality is, most people would prefer to minimize their potential risks, thus eliminating the possibilities of the potential rewards that come with it.

I know of several entrepreneurs right here on this site that can tell you their stories of how they got tired of "working for the man", took the risks, and left a guaranteed paycheck behind to do/earn more for themselves.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Our police state is a lot more expensive than our welfare state.

 

[backbreaker]

people like the OP have no sense of reality and live threw TV network matras.

There are a few things you need to understand on a grand scale

1. the biggest reason why you offer people help who can't help themselves is because long term it's an investment into the countries future.

in other words, the best ideas, the best minds, the most innovative pepole don't always come from the top or even the middle of society. a country who is truely seriuos about being at the front of the class gives everyone a legit chance and sees who can rise to the top. Ayn Rand, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th centry was on welfare (and before any drive by posters try to hi jack my point she was on welfare beucse she devoted the last half of her life to teaching her philslophy and gave up the lukatrative fiction riting career she had made with writing the fountainhead and atlas shurgged)

Oprah Winfrey, walfare. You like the mask and ace ventura? Jim carrey never gets where he is now if not for walfare? you like the show the west wing? **** do you like charlie sheen lol? do you lke any of the sheens? none of that happens if martin sheen is denied walare when he needed it. Ella Fitzgerald, the most famous vocal jazz singer of all time, was at one time on welfare.

Not just actors. Ricahrd Nixon was dirt poor growing up in Chalifornia as a child and his family got gov. assistance. because of that he was allowed to stay in school and not quit school to help out around.. and considering he was smart enough to eventually go to duke on a full ride, that's a pretty good deal.

My mother's family was so poor growing up, that there was a tree growing in the middle of the living room of their house.. lol in the middle of the living room. no one believes me utnil i show them pictures of the house. my dad bought it and renevated it eventually but as a child, that's what she had. if not for walfare my mother has to quite and work at a bowling alley just to put food on the table.

my mother got a full ride to UALR, got not 1, not 2, but 3 degrees, including a masters degree. I assure you that the money my mother pays in taxes, dwarfs what was paid out to her in gov assistance. not only that, my mother has 2 kids, i'm a millionaire to be blunt, i pay more in taxes in one year than just about all of the gov assistance my mother got back combined. I also employee people, and on top of all that i dontae time and money to big brothers and big sisters. my 12 year old sister speaks fluent Spanish and has had all of 1 b on her report card in her entire life and now goes to private school and they are seriously considering spiking her a grade. she's gonna go to college and she's gonna make a lot of m oney and she's gonna pay taxes., my son is going to grow up and go to college and pay a lot of taxes

none of that happens, none of it, if the goverment doesn't cut my mom's family a measly 200 dollar goverment food stamp check every month 30 years ago beucase then my mother couldn't study and go to college she would have had to work.

2. i don't think most... people like the op have seriously thought out the tax debate.

let's say, we sto giving "handouts". okay, now you save the money beucase you aren't giving handouts. what now happens?

crime goes up. crime goes up beucase people who were getting 300-400 a month are now hungry and beucase of our great gun laws, everyone has a gun and we are just gonna take wtf we want. so regardless of where you live in your community if there is no welfare, they are coming lol beucase they are hungry.

so now what do we have to do? lol we have to raise taxes to hire more local police. you also have to give incentives to people who would other wise go into business, to go into law enforcement so not only are you paying more money than you would by just cutting the poor people a check lol, you are losing productivity on the business end


there is a reason why every freaking first world country who can affords to, takes care of it's poor. it's what smart countries do. do not be so short sided and ignorant to let a few people who want to put more money in their pockets, let you believe any different. I pay more in taxes than probably, just about everyone here and i have no problem with it beucse i know it's necessary. my saving grace is that a lot of money i make comes from gambling and that's actually a lower tax rate than my business, much lower actually lol. but yeah i get bent over lol.

3. what i find more interesting than all that are guys who, have never started a business, have never had to actually pay a ****ing 40% tax rate on jack ****, guys who ***** about 50 dollars being taken out of their 2 week check for Social security are the ones who all they want to talk about is the poor stealing from the rich. lol dude you are poor lol! no one gives a **** about your pissy little FICA takeout lol. Then the arrogance of a lot of white males to think that African Americans after 300 years of racial segregation will make up all that **** in one ****ing generation, something that white Americans haven't done in 30, is beyond belief.

 

[Poonani Maker]

Our police state is a lot more expensive than our welfare state.

Not to mention the "gotta build a new football stadium with Your tax dollars" in lieu of the on-going fact that 47 million people could used some of that 200 mil stadium funds, for a college team no less.

Then there's Mitt mutha-f Romney who says he'd be "strict" on China just days ago, when lo and f'in behold, Bain Capital, the company He started, just shut down Sensata http://www.examiner.com/article/the...ta-workers-against-mitt-romney-s-bain-capital, after reporting it's highest profit!, yeah, the company that Mittens started, is laying off American workers who were making $17/hr producing record profits, yet in order to serve the %1, the $100 million net worth shareholders of Bain (Romney), they had to ship these jobs to China, that's right, for the $1/hr Chinese worker to further increase profits on the American back. What a complete and out and out bold-faced LIAR on national stage, yet FOX crappy news doesn't report, nor nar No one else is reporting it. These people are nothing but hucksters and scam-artists period.

 

[Who Dares Win]

people like the OP have no sense of reality and live threw TV network matras.

There are a few things you need to understand on a grand scale

1. the biggest reason why you offer people help who can't help themselves is because long term it's an investment into the countries future.

in other words, the best ideas, the best minds, the most innovative pepole don't always come from the top or even the middle of society. a country who is truely seriuos about being at the front of the class gives everyone a legit chance and sees who can rise to the top. Ayn Rand, one of the most brilliant minds of the 20th centry was on welfare (and before any drive by posters try to hi jack my point she was on welfare beucse she devoted the last half of her life to teaching her philslophy and gave up the lukatrative fiction riting career she had made with writing the fountainhead and atlas shurgged)

Oprah Winfrey, walfare. You like the mask and ace ventura? Jim carrey never gets where he is now if not for walfare? you like the show the west wing? **** do you like charlie sheen lol? do you lke any of the sheens? none of that happens if martin sheen is denied walare when he needed it. Ella Fitzgerald, the most famous vocal jazz singer of all time, was at one time on welfare.

Not just actors. Ricahrd Nixon was dirt poor growing up in Chalifornia as a child and his family got gov. assistance. because of that he was allowed to stay in school and not quit school to help out around.. and considering he was smart enough to eventually go to duke on a full ride, that's a pretty good deal.

My mother's family was so poor growing up, that there was a tree growing in the middle of the living room of their house.. lol in the middle of the living room. no one believes me utnil i show them pictures of the house. my dad bought it and renevated it eventually but as a child, that's what she had. if not for walfare my mother has to quite and work at a bowling alley just to put food on the table.

my mother got a full ride to UALR, got not 1, not 2, but 3 degrees, including a masters degree. I assure you that the money my mother pays in taxes, dwarfs what was paid out to her in gov assistance. not only that, my mother has 2 kids, i'm a millionaire to be blunt, i pay more in taxes in one year than just about all of the gov assistance my mother got back combined. I also employee people, and on top of all that i dontae time and money to big brothers and big sisters. my 12 year old sister speaks fluent Spanish and has had all of 1 b on her report card in her entire life and now goes to private school and they are seriously considering spiking her a grade. she's gonna go to college and she's gonna make a lot of m oney and she's gonna pay taxes., my son is going to grow up and go to college and pay a lot of taxes

none of that happens, none of it, if the goverment doesn't cut my mom's family a measly 200 dollar goverment food stamp check every month 30 years ago beucase then my mother couldn't study and go to college she would have had to work.

2. i don't think most... people like the op have seriously thought out the tax debate.

let's say, we sto giving "handouts". okay, now you save the money beucase you aren't giving handouts. what now happens?

crime goes up. crime goes up beucase people who were getting 300-400 a month are now hungry and beucase of our great gun laws, everyone has a gun and we are just gonna take wtf we want. so regardless of where you live in your community if there is no welfare, they are coming lol beucase they are hungry.

so now what do we have to do? lol we have to raise taxes to hire more local police. you also have to give incentives to people who would other wise go into business, to go into law enforcement so not only are you paying more money than you would by just cutting the poor people a check lol, you are losing productivity on the business end


there is a reason why every freaking first world country who can affords to, takes care of it's poor. it's what smart countries do. do not be so short sided and ignorant to let a few people who want to put more money in their pockets, let you believe any different. I pay more in taxes than probably, just about everyone here and i have no problem with it beucse i know it's necessary. my saving grace is that a lot of money i make comes from gambling and that's actually a lower tax rate than my business, much lower actually lol. but yeah i get bent over lol.

3. what i find more interesting than all that are guys who, have never started a business, have never had to actually pay a ****ing 40% tax rate on jack ****, guys who ***** about 50 dollars being taken out of their 2 week check for Social security are the ones who all they want to talk about is the poor stealing from the rich. lol dude you are poor lol! no one gives a **** about your pissy little FICA takeout lol. Then the arrogance of a lot of white males to think that African Americans after 300 years of racial segregation will make up all that **** in one ****ing generation, something that white Americans haven't done in 30, is beyond belief.

People like backbreaker think that all world revolves around the united states therefore take for granted that any principle explained apply to the law and society of the particular case.

Now seriously what you says make sense its not anything stupid especially the investment in poors which protects from crime rises.

Anyway regarding your other point may I ask you who GAVE AUTHORITY to someone to decide how to spend other people money?

With all due respect the last time someone toke my coins and said he was going to spend them for my own good was my father...since then I think I kinda learned how to spend my own money for my own good, except that the government now doesnt have any blood tie with me.

Regarding that people on welfare that "did it" personally I would have taken other examples but your point is fine however why dont just let people give help to the poors (which make it sounds as victims compared to the word unsuccessful which make it sounds as lazy) according to their will?

Free world my hairy ass if you cannot even decide who you want to help with your own money.

And please save that stuff about african americans, we didnt have any slavery here thankfully nor any minority rights group (aka hate group) who make black men angry at whites (probably a reason why blacks and whites live in peace here thankfully again except of course some part of the former urss and parts of scandinavia).

So the point again is "regardless the beneficiary, is acceptable to force someone to pay against his will part of his own worked money?"

If your opinion is that if it benefits the mass, the individual should be deprived of his economic freedom is perfectly fine as I said this is supposed to be a free world but just like you pointed out a potential rise in crime if the "forced charity" is suppressed dont forget that on the other part of the line there is the productive people who can get pissed off as well...see it as tax evasion first and emigration to greener pasture later, and at that point I wonder who is gonna feed all the remaining mouths.

Regarding your loved "tv networks mantra" some kind of general ad personam, the majority of the networks here blame for this mess mostly the banks, then the politicians and finally middle class who lived above their standard...they never named social healthcare which sucks more energy than a ferrari on full speed nor unemployed people.

And lastly Im sure that for any enterpreise which started thanks to a man on welfare, an other one never started cause the potential entrepreneur has been knocked out in his dreams due to tax weight.

 

[Burroughs]

Obama said:

"If you had a business you didn't build that.." what! what! what!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=192oEC5TX_Q

He talks about firefighters, teachers, and infrastructure...none of this is paid by income tax!...Income tax goes directly to private bankers to pay down false debt.

You pit 'rich' against 'poor' and the fiat bankers steal it all...and remember your 'rich' is 'poor' in the eyes of the bankers.....If Lord Rothchild woke up with Bill Gates 'wealth' he'd promptly kill himself.

 

[Alle_Gory]

People should be able to make bad choices and suffer the fair and just consequences. As far as taxes, if you make money off other people's work you pay them taxes. Fair is fair.

You want to run a business, make sure that business is up to code, hire people? Pay for it otherwise leave. The little people pay taxes unless they are children, elderly or unemployed. So why can't the rich? Suddenly they can't afford it?

Income tax goes directly to private bankers to pay down false debt.

Sure. I'll bite. Show me.

 

[Bible_Belt]

There are 47% of people out there who are net recipients of tax dollars.

Doesn't that 47% include children, the elderly, and the mentally and physically handicapped? That stat implies that half of us intentionally do not work, but it's obviously not that much. The elderly would make up the biggest chunk of that spending, and it's the cost of health care that is the root of the problem.

Subsidized food and housing also has a 'trickle up' affect in regard to the flow of the money. The biggest recipient of tax dollars in a small town is often the guy who owns a lot of Section-8 or low-income housing where the government pays most of everyone's rent each month. Food is similar. A lot of ghetto grocery stores wouldn't survive without food stamps. My state issues coupons to seniors and poor people to use at local farmer's markets. I can't see myself ever going on food stamps, but as a vendor at the market, I certainly do cash in a lot of those welfare coupons.

I think that's the real reason that we put so much public money into subsidizing healthcare, housing, and food. If we suddenly stopped it all, the ripple effect would devastate what is left of the economy. All of the lost jobs, economic activity, and tax revenue would be a greater sum than what was initially slashed from public spending.

 

[Alle_Gory]

There are 47% of people out there who are net recipients of tax dollars.

Doesn't that 47% include children, the elderly, and the mentally and physically handicapped? That stat implies that half of us intentionally do not work, but it's obviously not that much. The elderly would make up the biggest chunk of that spending, and it's the cost of health care that is the root of the problem.

Yeah, those greedy self entitled old and crippled! How DARE THEY BE OLD?

The rich pay far more taxes than the "little people".

No. They don't. Percentage wise they pay far less. They should be paying more especially since they owe their success to the little people. Roads, hydro, power none of those things are free and yet they take advantage and leech of the little people who pay for these things to be built and maintained.

Seriously, the Government is nearly half of the economy and you want to make it larger?

You can make it smaller but nobody is brave enough to go after the big spenders like the war departments. They just keep adding more. Now there's the DHS and the TSA. Great. Just great.

 

[The Gambler]

I like to keep things simple. I look around to see what's happening... whether it be with my own eyes on the street, info found on the internet, experience from trusted colleagues, etc. I try not to be swayed by commentary, which is usually loaded with opinion. I search more for facts. What is actually happening out there?

A great example of this is the subject of women. I can find several men here in this forum, who are well-written, who will post a 2,000 word essay on why all women are calculating b*tches who use men as stepping-stones for their feminists agendas. But what do ya know.... I know and see literally hundreds of male/female couples every day in my world who are... drum roll please... HAPPY! And no, I'm not talking about the submissive guys who are p*ssy-whipped dolts, being led around on a leash by 300 pound HB3s. No, I see plenty of couples who are genuinely happy and sharing their lives together.

So now, what about the topic at hand?

Every morning I go to a local mini-mart to buy myself a frozen mocha coffee (yuuummm.... gonna do that right after I type this). I promise you, four out of five times that I go there, there will be at least one young guy or gal in their early twenties in line ahead of me, not to mention any others milling about the store. Often, they will be dressed in pajamas or baggy gangsta jeans. Tattoos and face piercings are everywhere. Most or all of them seem to smoke. The shoes they wear are usually more expensive than mine.

Do I mind any of this?

So far, no.

What I DO mind is how each and every one of these people get to the register and pull out their trusty state welfare card, and give it a swipe to buy their unhealthy crap. Now, any reasonable person who isn't blind would realize that these young adults are not looking for jobs. As a matter of fact, it's quite the opposite. They have learned that NOT having a job will ensure that their rent, utilities and food are paid by the government in a timely manner. Any children that happen to be conceived will be covered... as a matter of fact, a couple of children will bump up the standard of living a bit higher! What a deal!

As a middle-class taxpayer, the reality is that EVERY PENNY of tax money I will pay this year won't even cover the amount of benefits paid to ONE of the young adults I just mentioned.

So I'll let you guys go back and forth about the details of international global subsidization and trickle-down economics. I'm gonna go to the mini-mart and stand in line behind a young man wearing pajamas with his government credit card.

But I probably shouldn't judge him.... Who knows, he might wind up being the most famous jazz singer of all time, or maybe the next Martin Sheen.

 

[Who Dares Win]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bavou_SEj1E

The section at 2:17 says it all. This is the mentality of people today.

I dont know if to laugh or beat to blood those who allows and support such mess, so she made the mess then shame others into being accountable of her mess?

I mean its like someone who gets high on candies then when he gets diabetes he sue the government cause the cures he is provided with are uncomfortable to his lifestyle and insult people for being selfish toward him....then he growls that he is no longer paying taxes cause the national health care in unfair.

 

[Burroughs]

Sure. I'll bite. Show me.

The notion that our personal income taxes go to paying for our country’s infrastructure, social services, military, etc. is inaccurate, to say the least.

Our personal income taxes first are collected by the US Treasury via the Internal Revenue Service, which sends the funds to the Federal Reserve, which is NOT a federal bank of any sort. The privately owned Federal Reserve, which is owned by the Rothschilds and, to a smaller extent, other banking families, then sends our tax dollars to its own Bank of England, which is located in the sovereign area of London called The City of London.

Interestingly, The City of London has its own laws, security forces and military, completely independent of the rest of London and the entire United Kingdom. It is considered the most elite banking and economic center in the western world.

The Bank of England, again, owned by the Rothschilds, sends our tax dollars to other central banks, all privately owned, and located in Europe.

Why do we even pay this illegal personal income tax, when our own government can operate without it?

Because our government borrows heavily from the Rothschilds and must pay interest on these loans. Our personal income tax offsets these interest payments. All usurious, of course. And all illegal.

The FED began with approximately 300 people or banks that became owners (stockholders purchasing stock at $100 per share - the stock is not publicly traded) in the Federal Reserve Banking System. Lord Rothschild the majority shareholder at 65%. They make up an international banking cartel of wealth beyond comparison. The FED banking system collects billions of dollars in interest annually and distributes the profits to its shareholders. The Congress illegally gave the FED the right to print money (through the Treasury) at no interest to the FED. The FED creates money from nothing, and loans it back to us through banks, and charges interest on our currency. The FED also buys Government debt with money printed on a printing press and charges U.S. taxpayers interest.

 

[goundra]

so what? it's not going to change. there was a Constitutional amendment, (supposedly "passed") that lets them charge income tax. the real issue, guys, is how to live free, with minimal money going to the Man, and maximum money kept in your pocket, with minimla hassle for you. NOw, if you have something positive to post about how to do those things, let's see it. for instance, I know how to have use 3k or so, spent over a 2 year period, to build 1/4 million in credit. I know how to use some or all of that credit to get some investments that clear 60% per year, so why CARE that the credit "costs' you 20% per year, hmm? The debt can be repaid in 1-2 years, and after that, the entire profit is yours. Everyone can't do this, but many thousands of ordinary people, all over the US, can do it. anyone can build the credit, but this investment is limited to a few 100k people in the US, before numbers would make it a lot less profitable. Still, it would beat all other SAFE investments, even if millions of people did it. With 20k or so of uninvolved income per year, you can have a BALL living in the 3rd world, safely, too. 40k a year, no kids, and you can do the same here. 60k a year, and 1 kid can be handled. have any more than 1 kid, you are a selfish, ignorant *******, plain and simple. the world aint got the resources for the people that are here NOW to have a decent life.