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I Feel Guilty For Spinning Plates

Racecar

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Lately I've been feeling guilty for spinning plates. I would tell one girl how much I like her then find myself making out with a different girl the next day. I'd send 'romantic' texts to two different girls only to hear them tell me how much it means to them. While with one girl, I'd text another telling her that I'm just "hanging out with friends." These things don't necessarily keep me up at night, but my conscience has been bothering me.

Technically I haven't lied to any girl - they just don't have the entire story. They all know that I'm single and I haven't made any commitments to anyone.

Still, I feel uneasy. Am I regressing into an AFC or maybe this is feminist societal programming from all those years I've wasted watching crap like Doug.

Please offer any suggestions or rational for these feelings.

I hope everyone had a great holiday and is looking forward to a prosperous new year.
 

backbreaker

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You don't feel guilty becuase you are spinning plates, you feel guilty becuase you are telling half truths. This is how guys get the "player" rap beucaas eyou are lying to women, even though you aren't technically lying.

Be 100% honest. if a chick calls you and you are busy either don't pick up or tell her you are with someone else.

When you aren't 100% honest, i.e trying to make sure one doesn't find out about the other, you are no better than the AFC chump who has no women because you are still going out of your way to protect yourself from the loss of a woman. The whole point is to make them complete for each other.

Just be 100% honest about your intentions and what you are doing. Either they are down or they aren't. Usually they are.

don't allow yourself to be sucked into the "love" and "you are so special" ****, right now you are simply kicking it with 2 different girls who neither you are dating. what is the big deal about that? nothing. women do it all the time. A chick might go clubbing with john on Thursday and might have Chris take her out for drinks on saturday and you don't see them getting pissy about the situation.

The amount of women you are dating has nothing to do with you being an AFC, you are an AFC right at this moment because you are still, regardless of the amount of plates you are spinning, putting the woman before you. A DJ is not afraid to say yeah, look, i've been out a few times with thi schick and I enjoy her company, nothing more nothing less. If that poses a problem for you, a woman I'm not dating, than you can go.

lol fvck I would go places where I knew other girls would see me and someone else..

When a woman really is into you, there is very little you can do to drive her away. The more unavavilable you see, the more uncommittal you seem, the more she is going to want you. This is how you create the woman you can call in the pouring rain at 2am and tell her to come blow you and she's in the car before hang up the phone, or tell a girl that you are hungry and she will drive over your house just to cook for you even though she didn't plan on cooking. You don't get this type of devotion from a woman if she has nothing to compete for.


Law 20
Do Not Commit to Anyone
It is the fool who always rushes to take sides. Do not commit to any side or cause but yourself. By maintaining your independence, you become the master of others – playing people against one another, making them pursue you.
A woman is like a rubber band. If she likes you, you can stretch the **** out of her, and the more you stretch her, the more force she is going to resort to using to try to "win" you if she actually likes you. She's not going to break at the first sign of compeition
 

Racecar

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This is a good starting point, but I'm not entirely satisfied.

It's one thing for a girl to go clubbing with John on Thursday and Chris on Saturday, but what if she sucked off John that day then had sex with Chris a few days later?

Physicality seems like one of those things men and women should be open with. I wouldn't like it if one of my girls were sexing up some other guy on the side. In fact, if that were the case, she'd be dropped from the rotation and labeled as a low-value wh0re.

I like the fact you mention the importance of open communication. That's something I will do from now on...but how open is too open? Considering how jealous women can be, I feel you almost have to withhold information or adopt a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy. In either case, you're not exhibiting alpha, carefree, DJ-type behavior.
 
R

Rubato

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Find the Moral Offense

Stop thinking about spinning plates for a second. What you're in the middle of is an ethical dilemma. Spinning plates is a bit of a moral gray area for some people so let's make it about something that's more cut and dry... my ethic's professor's standby example for things like this was kicking puppies.

Guys will give you justification for plate spinning, but they don't help ameliorate your concern if you think plate spinning is ultimately wrong. You can see this with the puppy example.

Given - Kicking puppies is morally wrong.

*Poof!!*

Out of the vapors, a figure emerges that bears a very striking resemblance to a cat.

Rubato - "Ahh, I see an ethicist has come to help us."

Ethicist - "I have spent my life dedicated to the discovering what makes a choice morally correct and incorrect. Some of you may think my work is simple, but rest assured, my colleagues and I have made things more difficult than you can think! Why, just consider Immanuel Kant's book..."

Rubato - "Ehh hem, Ethicist, about the puppies..."

Ethicist - "Right so Mr. Rubato! Our friend Racecar is quite the intelligent chap and thus simple arguments are not likely to change his mind. Some people might tell this gentlemen:

1. 'Why Racecar, don't concern yourself and your feelings with these puppies when they're being kicked. Everyone is doing it and it's just a statement of the nature we live in'

^
Bandwagon

2. 'Come now Racecar, these puppies have actually brought this kicking behavior on themselves. After all, the only reason why we kick them is because they're actively encouraging it! If they weren't constantly urinating on our brand new carpets or eating our homework assignments, we wouldn't have much of a need to kick them would we?'

^
Administering "justice"

3. 'Oh Racecar, you're being silly. Why should you concern yourself with these puppies anyways? They're just puppies! You're a *man*! Why... I can't even imagine being a *man* and also being concerned about the feelings of a... a... puppy.'"

^
Superiority

Rubato - "Ethicist, surely these are not the only arguments to be made against kicking puppies?"

Ethicist - "I am sure there are more, but it is not necessary to discuss them. If you ultimately believe it is wrong to kick puppies, do the circumstances surrounding the puppy kicking matter?"

All at once, the ethicist disappeared in to a blinding cloud of orange smoke.

As with the puppies, if you believe there is something inherently wrong with spinning plates, no one is going to be able to give you an effective "moral pass" on this issue. So let's break down what spinning plates actually is.

Suddenly, the Earth began to shake, so much so that people could hear dishes rattling in their cabinets and one poor man says his wife's favorite candy dish fell off their mantle and broke on the floor! A crevice appeared in Rubato's back yard and a bright blue light shot forth; as the crevice opened, immediately there appeared a transparent figure of a very old man with several wooden dowels spinning against his body. On top of each of the dowels were beautifully decorated China plates. He was adorned with ragged clothing and a long white beard. The China craftsmen very carefully approaches Rubato:

Craftsman - "Mr. Rubato, I hear that you're in need of a word from a master plate craftsman."

Rubato - "The heavens have heard the loud echo's of my questioning mind! Yes, Great One, please tell me about your trade."

Craftsman - "As you can see, I have dedicated my life to plates. Others have done this before, but never to the extent that I have. I don't actually create the plates... you see, no one knows exactly where they come from. Some of us like to think that we played some dramatic part in the formation of these things, but I don't think so. I've never started spinning a great Silver Plate before only to see that when I set it down for another that it had turned in to a Blue Plate. But that's not really the point.... Where was I... Oh yes!

Rubato, we're born and grow up being told a stories about how finding these plates are just "what we're supposed to do' as men. It's in our nature and should be the most natural thing in the world. But what ends up happening is that this plate narrative we're told is only spoken of in the singular. This is a big mistake! It's true that in my older days I only spin the most beautiful and ornate China plates. Don't think they're looks are deceiving, they're quite fragile. If I throw it on the ground, it will surely break. But let me ask you this my friend, have you ever seen a China cabinet before that only had one plate?"

Suddenly, the Earth began to shake once more and the Craftsman vanished nearly as quickly as he had originally appeared.

Spinning plates happens when you have some sort of personal interaction occurring with more than one female that you have reciprocal sexual/romantic interest in. I think you need to consider what you said in your OP about the conditioning you've had growing up. In the absence of an expressed commitment between you and another girl, is there anything morally that should preclude you from forming additional relationships with other women?

Don't worry about the arguments people will throw out... like

1. They're doing it too
2. You're better than them so don't worry about them
3. Your feelings are more important than theirs
4. Their feelings don't even matter
5. Whatever

Like I said above, none of these arguments mean anything if the initial premise is wrong. So tell me - is it?

Is it WRONG:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

In the absence of commitment.

When you are being honest with the girls you're seeing.

Is it wrong.

To do the same thing you're doing with one.

To another?

First, if you can rationalize the behavior with one girl, rationalizing it with another is easy. Where you get in to problems is rationalizing them together at the same time.

Tell me where the moral offense here takes place. You are not breaking your word, for you gave no word to break.

If you aren't breaking your word, what are you breaking? Are you concerned the girl might not like that you are seeing other women? Why? And if she has such a problem, isn't it her prerogative to attempt to "cage" The Great Catch? Are you so concerned with the possibility that she will care that you pedestal her imagined feelings (you don't know for sure what they are do you? This is all conjecture) above your own.

After all, if she was really worth snagging for your own, wouldn't you find a way to direct your relationship with her that way?

You may be confusing spinning plates with cheating. They are not the same. Cheating is wrong because it represents a violation of your word; spinning plates, at least the way I see it, does not.

As I said above, find the moral offense. Just don't become too much of a philosopher/ethicist about this and spend all of your time looking for a cat that was never there in the first place.
 

backbreaker

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A "DJ" that has a problem with a girl he's not dating having sex with a guy she went out with, simply becuase they went on a date rotfl. I've heard it all.

buddy you might as well pull up a chair and get comfortable because you are going to be single quite a while.

this is a common theme on this site. You are making sex a morality issue and it isn't. There is nothing whatsoever moral or immoral about people who aren't dating or married having sex. nothing.


lol, hell why stop there. why not take dibbs on every girl you approach lol? is she off limits too just beause you asked for the phone number? Is she too immoral beucase you asked for her phone number and she got plowed by someone else? or hell, what about the girl you caught looking at you at work? how dare she look at you then go suck some dude off.

Stop thinking about spinning plates for a second. What you're in the middle of is an ethical dilemma. Spinning plates is a bit of a moral gray area for some people so let's make it about something that's more cut and dry... my ethic's professor's standby example for things like this was kicking puppies.

Guys will give you justification for plate spinning, but they don't help ameliorate your concern if you think plate spinning is ultimately wrong. You can see this with the puppy example.
It's becuase it's fvcking nothing wrong with spinning plates! the problem isn't the process the problem is this guys point of view. It's unrealistic and more than that it's fvcking unhealthy. I'm actually working on something that will hit home for the OP.

There is nothing unethical or immoral about two people who aren't dating having sex. She doesn't owe you **** and you don't owe her ****. That's Beta game at it's finest right there, that type of logic. What I mean by that is simply, you have made, the act of NOT having sex a virtue or virtuous. That by somehow, not having sex with other women, proves yourself to your date orr the woman you wish to see as being worthy. Or, that by her not having sex with other men she deems desirable at the time, means she's more worthwhile of a LTR.

you are attempting to link a persons sexuality with their morality, that's why most guys end up here anyway... "she did everything right, everyone said she was the one, why is she at the bar at 4am and not picking up her phone calls"

Let me say this loud and clear... who a person desires to have sex with or not have sex with. has about 0% percent to do with what type of relationship partner a person is. Just becuase a woman is having casual sex does not mean she wont' be faithful when she is in a LTR, or make a good or bad GF once in a LTR, no more than a woman who "held out for you" doesn't mean she won't fvck the next door neighbor once you piss her off, or run off with a classmate after you marry her (slight jab there lol)

these are attempts BETAs use at screening and they are horribly inaccurate. She's fvcking horny. it's as simple as that. don't make it more than it has to be. just beucdase she chose not to have sex with you when she is horny doesn't mean jack **** at the time other than she is more attracted to someone else at that time then you.



there is nothing virtuous about not fvcking. you are just not fvcking.
 
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zekko

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Look, as a young guy you need to get out there and shop around, see what kind of girls are out there. You owe it to yourself, and whatever girl you might end up with. That's all spinning plates is really.

Girls will do it, don't kid yourselves. If they're too young or not ready to commit, they will entertain different suitors. it's the same thing.
 

Jariel

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This guilt you feel is all part of that inner "nice guy" you need to ignore. I still feel that now and I can totally relate to what you're saying. At the moment I've got 5 plates spinning and I'll often copy and paste the same text to each of them, just making a few amendments. Last night I went out with a girl who is really crazy about me, yet tomorrow I'm going out with another girl.

If I'm in a serious relationship and we've agreed to be exclusive, then I'm a man of integrity and I'll stop dating other women, but until that point there are no guarantees either way. I've been burnt so many times by women that were obsessed with me one day, then literally ignoring me like I don't exist the next.

Perhaps it sounds quite bitter, but every time that happens I say to myself "I wish I hadn't invested all my time in her" or "I wish I'd continued spinning plates". As others here said, girls will do it to you, even the best of them.

The other thing about spinning plates (as I've covered in more detail here: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=174058) is that it gives you a powerful and natural sense of confidence and indifference.

Yeah, I understand it feels underhanded, especially if these girls are really into you and hoping for the best, but speaking personally, my conscience has been the biggest c0ckblocker I've ever had to deal with.
 

Alex DeLarge

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Exactly what backbreaker said. If you tell the girls the truth, there's no need to feel guilt. If there's anything I've learned from this site, it's that spinning plates and having options is a great thing.. It's not to be frowned upon.
 

AAAgent

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maybe its because your doing something against your morals. When i spin plates i can't say i love you to any particular girl because when i say it i mean it. The ones i don't even really like i can't even say i like them either. I just smile when they say something like that to me, otherwise i'd be lying to myself and them if i actually said something like that to them. It would keep me up at night. However, i find a way around it. I still spin plates when i can but i don't break any of my rules. I would probably drop all my plates if i found a girl that i actually loved but i definitely don't see that happening anytime soon. been meeting mad dumb b1tches.

These girls think telling you all the guys they fooled around with is sexy.......

I rarely show my playful side to girls unless i trust them and therefore my plate spinning involves no cheesy flirtatious stuff. I just send a text or call. keep it short and too the point whether its grabbing food, club, bar, etc.

I in no-way lead these girls on, they lead themselves on so i don't feel bad in anything i do.

Your talking a lot about exclusivity which only happens in a relationship, and if you're fooling around while your in a relationship then you should probably feel bad. If your single however nothing wrong with that, something you will have to learn to accept.
 

Racecar

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Thank you all for the responses.

I think you need to consider what you said in your OP about the conditioning you've had growing up. In the absence of an expressed commitment between you and another girl, is there anything morally that should preclude you from forming additional relationships with other women?

Rubato, you're right about that. I can't come up with a logical reason as to why it is wrong to form additional relationships with multiple women. It is more efficient and practical. I think as men, we've been socially conditioned to believe this. "Single" is a loaded term. It implies solidarity, as in, the individual is alone without a romantic partner. Cognitive dissonance is created when one declares himself "alone without a romantic partner" when in fact he has multiple romantic partners. That's what I'm feeling now. The guilt is simply a dissonance reduction behavior.

I'm not "single" - I'm just not seeing exclusively seeing one person. Rubato, you once said definitions inherently limit concepts. The connotative and denotative definitions of a relationship are so far off that it's easy to become confused.

(I'll save the semantical discussion for later. It's important, but not in this post)

A "DJ" that has a problem with a girl he's not dating having sex with a guy she went out with, simply becuase they went on a date rotfl.

I'll acknowledge this is petty jealousy which could stem from a number of sources. However, on at least some level, doesn't everyone feel this? How could you have intimate relations with a person knowing she is having those same relations with 17 other men? Not to get into semantics again, but intimate by definition, is entirely different from normative. Hugs, kisses, and sexual actions are all signs of intimacy - signs that a person is held in higher regard than other people. If sex isn't intimate and becomes this emotionless, pleasure-seeking act, how do we differentiate when the time comes to settle down with one person exclusively?

There is nothing whatsoever moral or immoral about people who aren't dating or married having sex.

Sadly, I agree.

Even still, you need some way of differentiating how you treat a plate at 24 from how you treat your wife at 34. This is why "saving it for marriage" used to be so popular. The thinking there was that sex should be the ultimate form of expressing affection. Now that sex has been reduced to a physical act of pleasure, how do we express the same affection to the one we chose to marry?
 

Tovansky

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It's about how you spin the plates. From what I saw on your post, you have been lying and not being true to the women. You might also feel guilty because you feel that you have played with their heart and feeling. Believe me bro, if you keep doing it, it's gonna turn ugly.

and wait, don't get me wrong. I don't tell you that you shouldn't have multiple women at once at your disposal. It's how you actually handle them.

Be true with them, that's a must. If you are this awesome man that you think can handle all of those women at once, that those women will still be into you if they know that there is no strings attached when it comes to you, you will be fine. Don't lie and say anything about feeling and love them and such. That's not a DJ move. That's your inner AFC trying to play a DJ, and it will turn ugly. It's even much better if you juggle them without have to tell them anything. But, I prefer being the man they find irresistible and give them the signals that it's no string attached when it comes to me. They will find out about other women, and they will be fine with it, since you don't lie to them. True story.

When you are going for the one you want for a LTR, then you can't spin plates. Go for that one only, but also have the ability to walk away. That's the quality a woman will find very attractive.
 

Racecar

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If you tell the girls the truth, there's no need to feel guilt.


Maybe it's because I haven't tried, but I assume 90% of women would not be comfortable with the idea of the man they're sleeping with having sex with other women - even if the relationship between the two is not considered exclusive. This goes back to the idea of single women using sex as a means to bring about an exclusive relationship. Not to discount the fact that women have sex for pleasure, but a single woman's motivation to find an LTR trumps any other desire she will experience.

If you're a single guy banging multiple women at a time and you decide to settle down with one of your plates, what has changed in the relationship? Your whim? Is she supposed to 'trust' that you broke off contact with the other plates when life experience has taught her men (and people in general) are untrustworthy?

Trust is the basis for any relationship. When you spin plates, for a number of reasons, you don't talk about all other women you're fvcking. At the same time, this lack of communication conflicts with the trust barrier, which will break down any exclusive commitment you may have with a potential plate. How do you resolve this?
 

Mantis Toboggan

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Racecar said:
If you tell the girls the truth, there's no need to feel guilt.


Maybe it's because I haven't tried, but I assume 90% of women would not be comfortable with the idea of the man they're sleeping with having sex with other women - even if the relationship between the two is not considered exclusive. This goes back to the idea of single women using sex as a means to bring about an exclusive relationship. Not to discount the fact that women have sex for pleasure, but a single woman's motivation to find an LTR trumps any other desire she will experience.

If you're a single guy banging multiple women at a time and you decide to settle down with one of your plates, what has changed in the relationship? Your whim? Is she supposed to 'trust' that you broke off contact with the other plates when life experience has taught her men (and people in general) are untrustworthy?

Trust is the basis for any relationship. When you spin plates, for a number of reasons, you don't talk about all other women you're fvcking. At the same time, this lack of communication conflicts with the trust barrier, which will break down any exclusive commitment you may have with a potential plate. How do you resolve this?

Yeah, I'll be honest with you - I've never done that. My guy friends barely get the full details of what goes on in my sexual life, let alone the girls I'm banging.

I don't know if that makes me shady, or a player or whatever. But I'm just not comfortable putting my business out there like that.
 

Tovansky

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Racecar said:
Maybe it's because I haven't tried, but I assume 90% of women would not be comfortable with the idea of the man they're sleeping with having sex with other women - even if the relationship between the two is not considered exclusive. This goes back to the idea of single women using sex as a means to bring about an exclusive relationship. Not to discount the fact that women have sex for pleasure, but a single woman's motivation to find an LTR trumps any other desire she will experience.

If you're a single guy banging multiple women at a time and you decide to settle down with one of your plates, what has changed in the relationship? Your whim? Is she supposed to 'trust' that you broke off contact with the other plates when life experience has taught her men (and people in general) are untrustworthy?

Trust is the basis for any relationship. When you spin plates, for a number of reasons, you don't talk about all other women you're fvcking. At the same time, this lack of communication conflicts with the trust barrier, which will break down any exclusive commitment you may have with a potential plate. How do you resolve this?
how can you be so sure if you haven't tried it? I know, from experience, that there are some women who don't mind no strings attached. And yes, there are some women that will think sex = exclusivity, but there are many, MANY women out there that defines exclusivity = you can only sex up with me, but I can sex up with other dudes. It's in their ego man, exclusivity for them is not always equal LTR. And once you fall to that deadly trap, you are a goner. Welcome AFC and welcome being dumped again after you have fulfilled her ego. So if you are not looking for anything serious now, you will find plenty of women who are not hookers that will be just fine with no strings attached. Just distance yourself emotionally with these plates and you will be fine. Remember, no emotions nor feeling playing a part here!

as for me myself, I won't decide for too long if this one plate gonna be the one that will use for a long time. 1 month and I will know if this plate is worth the shot. and within that 1 month, she doesn't necessarily will have known about you and the other plates. My advice though, don't settle with the plates you are juggling, since they are plates to begin with, then they won't worth more than a plate later on. it might be your brain playing a trick on you.

trust is the base of a relationship. when you spin plates, you are not in a relationship. this lack of communication doesn't conflict with anything, since again you are not in a LTR and you ain't obliged to report everything to the plates. If you find a plate that you think might be a potential LTR, then you will spend more time with her and such, and due to lack of communication, she doesn't necessarily have to know your reputation with other plates. Even if she knows, such an awesome man you are, you will give signals that now she is special and you ain't playing with other women anymore, which still doesn't imply you don't the ability to walk away if she messes with your expensive commitment.
 

Tovansky

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Mantis Toboggan said:
Yeah, I'll be honest with you - I've never done that. My guy friends barely get the full details of what goes on in my sexual life, let alone the girls I'm banging.

I don't know if that makes me shady, or a player or whatever. But I'm just not comfortable putting my business out there like that.
everyone of us are like that man. I don't really go frontal full throttle to the chicks I am bangin and tell them names. I just don't tell them, keep distance (emotionally too), and they will just know there is no strings attached with me. If they found out, they will act like they don't know, they will ask, I will respond truthfully and they will be fine with it. if not, they are free to go. as simple as that for me.
 
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