"The Coffee Shop Girl You Never Spoke To"
You've replayed it a hundred times. She stood three feet away, scrolling her phone. You had an opening. You composed the perfect line — after she was gone.
For all you know, she's married now. To some guy who said something. Anything.
Openers are cheap. Almost any sentence works when it's delivered within three seconds. The expensive part is the standing there, drafting and deleting, while the window quietly closes.
The "22 Rules" stripped out my hesitation. What to open with, how to keep it alive, and the one habit that costs guys more women than anything else: waiting for perfect.
"I could live forever when you kiss me like you did last night..."
- Thread starter thedeparted
- Start date
"She Wants a Man, Not a Boy"
You asked her if she wanted to grab coffee. Then you asked if the time worked. Then you asked if the place was okay. Then you asked if she'd prefer tea.
Four questions. Four chances for her to say no. Four signals that you're terrified of making a decision.
Plan it. Pick the place. Pick the time. Tell her where to meet you. She'll either show up or she won't.
Either way, you look like a man instead of a scared little boy.
If there is one thing I have learned about women, it's that they are 1000x the cowards men are when it comes to relationships. Branch swinging, dumping without face to face contact....I've seen it all, and I can see a pattern of this with multiple women. Don't feel bad, it happens to all of us.thedeparted said:
Although not out of the realm of possibility, I wouldn't automatically assume this. Who cares anyway? What's done is done.
That said, she didn't dump you because you had a bad day. Women don't do that. They might use something like that as an EXCUSE to dump you, but that wasn't the reason, She was LOOKING for a reason.
Man, you just gotta take it for what it is. Men in America aren't living in optimal conditions to find decent women, that's for sure. You just have to cultivate a positive attitude about yourself to get to the point where you can take or leave women....it doesn't matter.
jophil28
Master Don Juan
Agreed.Jitterbug said:
I have seen this situation several times.
Things do not turn out in her favor OR circumstances prevent her from getting her way and poof- she's hiissy and pissed enough to walk out.
The "entitlement" mindset at work.
"Stop Asking Your Friends What to Text Her"
Your buddy Dave has been single for three years and thinks "hey u up" is a valid strategy. Your other buddy Mike just got dumped and told you to "just be yourself."
You showed them her text. You asked them to decode the emoji. You drafted four responses and sent the screenshot to the group chat for a vote.
She's been waiting forty minutes.
Put the phone down. Stop crowdsourcing your love life. Type something that sounds like you. Hit send. Then go do literally anything else with your evening.
Some people are crazy, but I don't see that she was. It's more like Str8tup pointed out, she had other reasons but she's not citing them.
Not for nothing, but whenever I hear a guy allege that a woman must be crazy, I see a guy who doesn't understand what's really going on and grabs that simplistic, convenient label because he can't make sense out of it otherwise. Departed, you've got a degree in psych. Would you diagnose her as being "crazy"?
Instead of slapping a label on it, let's use our frickin' brains to figure it out, like a detective would. A detective doesn't look at a crime scene and say, "they stole your TV because they're nuts!". Instead, he figures out the motive.
Fact was, she was really into him, because women don't cook you dinners and act really lovey and drive you around town and buy you dinner and wash your dishes if they don't really desire you (unless they have a "Martyr Complex"). Obviously, something happened to change that.
It's tough to say what that would consist of, because we have limited information. But barring a "Martyr Complex", we know she didn't get what she wanted out of the relationship. I can only guess it's something about feeling unappreciated, seeing Departed as a taker, maybe? A girl who demonstrates her feelings by doing things for you and buying little tokens for you typically sees that as her showing you affection, and if not demonstrated in the same manner to her, and makes her feel slighted instead, can take that lack to mean lack of affection on the guy's part and not see him as a "giver".
I get the sense we had those dynamics at play here, not mental issues.
Not for nothing, but whenever I hear a guy allege that a woman must be crazy, I see a guy who doesn't understand what's really going on and grabs that simplistic, convenient label because he can't make sense out of it otherwise. Departed, you've got a degree in psych. Would you diagnose her as being "crazy"?
Instead of slapping a label on it, let's use our frickin' brains to figure it out, like a detective would. A detective doesn't look at a crime scene and say, "they stole your TV because they're nuts!". Instead, he figures out the motive.
Fact was, she was really into him, because women don't cook you dinners and act really lovey and drive you around town and buy you dinner and wash your dishes if they don't really desire you (unless they have a "Martyr Complex"). Obviously, something happened to change that.
It's tough to say what that would consist of, because we have limited information. But barring a "Martyr Complex", we know she didn't get what she wanted out of the relationship. I can only guess it's something about feeling unappreciated, seeing Departed as a taker, maybe? A girl who demonstrates her feelings by doing things for you and buying little tokens for you typically sees that as her showing you affection, and if not demonstrated in the same manner to her, and makes her feel slighted instead, can take that lack to mean lack of affection on the guy's part and not see him as a "giver".
I get the sense we had those dynamics at play here, not mental issues.
The "fact" is she was NOT really into him. She was totally indifferent. You're basing this idea of yours on one line of pure BS she wrote in an email. That way over the top language she used was indicative of a person who was "play acting", who lacks substance, and feels things at a "surface" level only. And yes, women who say something in an email that overtly suggests that she is "nuts" about you (you walk on water), and then days later ACTS in a way that says she could care less, is crazy. Note that I was the one who immediately warned him of trouble, and to be careful, and you were the one who said "all steam ahead". So, considering how this blew up in his face, I am surprised that you made a point to tell me that I "don't understand the situation". Perhaps you should be asking yourself what I saw in that email, that you flat out missed.
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ThunderMaverick
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P.E. is totally on. Women say ANYTHING when she feels like she's walking on clouds. Example, a girl can say "I could live forever after you kissed me like that" days after her boyfriend beats the sh!t out of her. I've known women like this. I know women who'll have three kids with a guy and not be in love with him and the guy will know it. IDIOT!!
Until she shows real PROOF that she'll stay by your side through hardships (by STAYING by your side, that is.) take EVERY cute thing she says about you with a grain of salt. Protect yourself and don't get too gushy.
I've had girls tell me I was hot after sleeping with them. Then they flake out.
I've had strippers tell me I was hot. Then take my money.
On the surface, what's the difference?
Until she shows real PROOF that she'll stay by your side through hardships (by STAYING by your side, that is.) take EVERY cute thing she says about you with a grain of salt. Protect yourself and don't get too gushy.
I've had girls tell me I was hot after sleeping with them. Then they flake out.
I've had strippers tell me I was hot. Then take my money.
On the surface, what's the difference?
thedeparted
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Well guys I appreciate all the feedback really. Lots of different perspectives and truth in each. I do enjoy the psychological detective work so I'll break it down the way I see it now that I've had more time to think about it. I already let go of her though so don't think I have any stupid ideas. I just think the analysis is interesting.
1. Crazy about me? Or just crazy?
Ha ha! That makes me laugh. I know for sure she really liked me based on all the stuff she _did_ as opposed to said. Mostly she put up a front of not caring too much, but I could tell it was a front and she always had an excuse to come see me. My jokes were funny. My clothes looked good. She would talk about me to people like I was headline news.
But Str8up has said somewhere that women whose dad's were drinkers have problems. That was definitely the case here. She was very afraid of emotional intimacy and put on an "I don't care" front to cover up her feelings. She was comfortable with sex but not with sleeping over and told me she had issues sleeping in a bed with someone but she would try it with me.
So I believe that she has a real fear of getting attached to anyone b/c they might turn out to be abusive. There is a hurt little girl inside.
2. Fear rejection 10000x worse.
Well, between Sat. and Wed. not much happened b/c I was sick. I just turned her down for the meal at home and I said we needed to discuss some things later. She called me and I didn't take the call. I was icing her a bit b/c of Sat. which was the one time she'd been bad with me. But I'm sure she interpreted that as me planning to dump her. I know how nervous she was the one time we "talked" (even though it was a good talk) and she probably got fearful and "freaked out" and decided to dump me first to save her ego. And once the triggered is pulled, you can't put it back without looking like a fool.
3. Other issues/other guys.
Well, I think she wasn't satisfied with the sex. No matter that it sounded like I was killing her. I think she was just much hornier than me and even if I kept her in bed for hrs it's not the same as doing it every night. I'm also 30 min's away and I wasn't into smoking pot so it probably didn't feel the same for her. So I'm sure she found another guy next door to pass the bowl with and fvck and that's what it's about. She's never gonna say it to my face. But she did say "its not about what I did or didn't do". She is addicted to caffeinne, sugar, and cigarettes. And I bet sex and pot, too.
Conclusion
I gave her the full DJ treatment for 3 and a half months. Always ****y and funny. Always unpredictable. Pushing her limits on PDA. Taking her on exciting dates. Giving her the social proof. And the kino. But still keeping plenty of mysteries (I never even told her what I did for work). She told me multiple times how she loved my attitude, she was scared but thrilled to handle "deadly weapons" (shooting date), I had fascinating friends, I touched her in wonderful ways, and of course there was the email about the kissing. Add to that my high social status and nice pad and I would be surprised if she wasn't falling in love.
BUT -- she had a big fear of emotional entanglements and abusive men. She saw a shade of that in me one day, and on the night I turned down the date she got a bad feeling that she might be more invested than me, and she decided to get out first with her heart and body and fragile girl ego intact. She called up the local neighborhood orbiter, smoked some dope for the first time in awhile to give herself an emotional out (so it just happened), and fvcked the stoner boy. Next day I got an email that was super apologetic and game over.
If this analysis is correct then my mistake was icing her after Sat. for being bltchy. I should have instead recognized that her offer to make me dinner was a way to make up for all that and normalize relations. The rule with women is "no sudden moves" and turning down a date -- while trivial to me -- was a big massive rejection in her head and felt ominous.
OTOH, her addictions would certainly have been a problem in the long run. She's really impulsive and can't pass up her cravings. It would have turned into a job for Cap'n Save a Ho, and we all know how he makes out in the end.
Now I'm just gonna go out and hang with some college buddies all weekend. By MOnday I'll have forgotten her name
1. Crazy about me? Or just crazy?
Ha ha! That makes me laugh. I know for sure she really liked me based on all the stuff she _did_ as opposed to said. Mostly she put up a front of not caring too much, but I could tell it was a front and she always had an excuse to come see me. My jokes were funny. My clothes looked good. She would talk about me to people like I was headline news.
But Str8up has said somewhere that women whose dad's were drinkers have problems. That was definitely the case here. She was very afraid of emotional intimacy and put on an "I don't care" front to cover up her feelings. She was comfortable with sex but not with sleeping over and told me she had issues sleeping in a bed with someone but she would try it with me.
So I believe that she has a real fear of getting attached to anyone b/c they might turn out to be abusive. There is a hurt little girl inside.
2. Fear rejection 10000x worse.
Well, between Sat. and Wed. not much happened b/c I was sick. I just turned her down for the meal at home and I said we needed to discuss some things later. She called me and I didn't take the call. I was icing her a bit b/c of Sat. which was the one time she'd been bad with me. But I'm sure she interpreted that as me planning to dump her. I know how nervous she was the one time we "talked" (even though it was a good talk) and she probably got fearful and "freaked out" and decided to dump me first to save her ego. And once the triggered is pulled, you can't put it back without looking like a fool.
3. Other issues/other guys.
Well, I think she wasn't satisfied with the sex. No matter that it sounded like I was killing her. I think she was just much hornier than me and even if I kept her in bed for hrs it's not the same as doing it every night. I'm also 30 min's away and I wasn't into smoking pot so it probably didn't feel the same for her. So I'm sure she found another guy next door to pass the bowl with and fvck and that's what it's about. She's never gonna say it to my face. But she did say "its not about what I did or didn't do". She is addicted to caffeinne, sugar, and cigarettes. And I bet sex and pot, too.
Conclusion
I gave her the full DJ treatment for 3 and a half months. Always ****y and funny. Always unpredictable. Pushing her limits on PDA. Taking her on exciting dates. Giving her the social proof. And the kino. But still keeping plenty of mysteries (I never even told her what I did for work). She told me multiple times how she loved my attitude, she was scared but thrilled to handle "deadly weapons" (shooting date), I had fascinating friends, I touched her in wonderful ways, and of course there was the email about the kissing. Add to that my high social status and nice pad and I would be surprised if she wasn't falling in love.
BUT -- she had a big fear of emotional entanglements and abusive men. She saw a shade of that in me one day, and on the night I turned down the date she got a bad feeling that she might be more invested than me, and she decided to get out first with her heart and body and fragile girl ego intact. She called up the local neighborhood orbiter, smoked some dope for the first time in awhile to give herself an emotional out (so it just happened), and fvcked the stoner boy. Next day I got an email that was super apologetic and game over.
If this analysis is correct then my mistake was icing her after Sat. for being bltchy. I should have instead recognized that her offer to make me dinner was a way to make up for all that and normalize relations. The rule with women is "no sudden moves" and turning down a date -- while trivial to me -- was a big massive rejection in her head and felt ominous.
OTOH, her addictions would certainly have been a problem in the long run. She's really impulsive and can't pass up her cravings. It would have turned into a job for Cap'n Save a Ho, and we all know how he makes out in the end.
Now I'm just gonna go out and hang with some college buddies all weekend. By MOnday I'll have forgotten her name
"She Wants a Man, Not a Boy"
You asked her if she wanted to grab coffee. Then you asked if the time worked. Then you asked if the place was okay. Then you asked if she'd prefer tea.
Four questions. Four chances for her to say no. Four signals that you're terrified of making a decision.
Plan it. Pick the place. Pick the time. Tell her where to meet you. She'll either show up or she won't.
Either way, you look like a man instead of a scared little boy.
thedeparted
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Which part of what I wrote was the bad part? Are you saying I shouldn't have VM'd after the email dump?jophil28 said:
Indifferent? What is cooking dinners, purchasing the food, driving him around town, putting out the cash to buy movie tickets, what's all that? That's BS too? Those are actions that showed her interest.
The fact that this didn't work out doesn't mean that it couldn't have so it sure doesn't mean that you were correct. The fact that she ended things means that something changed, because at one point, she wanted him.
Not that you were correct, anyway. What exactly did you warn of? "More drama". What drama? There was no "drama". She offered to cook him dinner, then broke up with him through an email. No hysterics. No fighting. No yelling. No arguing. No confrontations. No big scene.
No drama.
What I said wasn't "all steam ahead", I encouraged a different perspective then the general "she's nuts!" posts that were populating the thread. She's a giver, she was into him, that's all good. But he blew her off and slighted her and when you slight a woman that can kill their interest, and who knows but if somewhere in there are other matters that caused her to think differently of him, okay? Maybe that self-admitted "mean streak" of his showed up in other ways that weren't announced in these posts? Maybe he's even unaware of it. That happens. Maybe she felt he wasn't into her? I wouldn't know, but it was because she got turned off otherwsie she'd stay turned on just as she was before... and so it sure wasn't because she was allegedly drama ridden and that the way to handle the sitch was to be "very, very afraid".
jophil28
Master Don Juan
\thedeparted said:
It was a bad idea given the situation. You were running after her..
Also read Bradshaw on Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACoAs)
Google ACoAS and read about your G/f.
Some of the characteristics/ behaviors of women who had an abusive and alcoholic ( they frequently co-exist) dad are...deeply held suspicions of men in general, hyper vigilance and an habitual mistrust of their adult S/O , and caretaking of men.( She fussed over you like a mother ) THey also have the emotional development of a young child.
These women typically enter the so-called "helping professions'".. nurses, teachers, social workers, psych workers, cops, lawyers and so on.
Consider this - think of yourself as a very young female child. The very man in your life who you long to protect and shield you, and whom you look to to make the world a safe place, is your worse nightmare. Instead of being your ROCK and the tower of strength that you wish for, he is the person who creates uproar, fear, drama and daily turmoil.
THis is why women with drunk dads never make suitable partners unless they recover in one of the programs which specialise in ACoAs. They need a lot of help BUT rarely seek it because they believe that Daddy was the one who had the problem..
They are too damaged to function as adults in adult intimate relationships.. Women like this enter relationships tentatively - one foot in and the other out the door ready to bolt, and they are notorious control freaks..
Sad but true. SHe belongs in AL-Anon urgently.
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thedeparted
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Thanks for the clarification Jophil. Indeed that attempt to fix the situation changed nothing.
The AcoA stuff is interesting. It's too harsh to say they "never" make good partners. She was great up until the last. And people can overcome their problems. But certainly there are issues that have to be navigated. So I probably stumbled right into them.
Maybe after sufficient time has passed I will fwd a link to her about Adult Children of Alcoholics and get her headed in the right direction. I think you are right she could use the support.
The AcoA stuff is interesting. It's too harsh to say they "never" make good partners. She was great up until the last. And people can overcome their problems. But certainly there are issues that have to be navigated. So I probably stumbled right into them.
Maybe after sufficient time has passed I will fwd a link to her about Adult Children of Alcoholics and get her headed in the right direction. I think you are right she could use the support.
"I just moved here from Florida."
That sentence contains at least five follow-up questions she WANTS you to ask. Where in Florida? What brought you here? How long have you been in the area? What do you miss? How does it compare to here?
She handed them to you on a silver platter. And you said, "Oh cool. I come here every week. I love this band. Ummm... pretty crowded tonight."
She smiled politely. Nodded. And never texted you back.
I was that guy for years. Talking too much. Listening too little. Panicking about my next sentence while she was literally feeding me the answers.
Then I found 22 rules that fixed the whole thing. Rule number one: shut up and listen. She'll tell you exactly what to say.
thedeparted
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Update
She dropped off my stuff a couple days ago and sent me a text to the tune of, "I almost called but thought I shouldn't. Sorry again for how everything turned out." I felt this was testing the waters. So I replied that everything was cool and no hard feelings. Since then we've had a few minor emails back and forth in which she is either wishing me well or hoping I'm better or whatever. Apparently she feels very guilty. This makes me think that (1) she did something bad like cheating (2) she has low self-esteem (3) she thinks I'm a really nice guy (4) she sees me as very vulnerable. Put it together and it seems like I lowered her IL by being too nice and showing some kind of weakness, and she responded by finding another guy and then feeling guilty.
Anyway, long run I would like to stay friends with this girl b/c she is fun to hang out with and good social proof and you can have kinkier sex with your exes. However, I figure that she will only go for that if (1) she doesn't feel guilty, (2) she still has IL, and (3) the other guy is no longer so interesting. So I'm just going to continue to lie low, keep it light, and keep my distance for now, and let her imagine all the fun things that I'm doing without her.
She dropped off my stuff a couple days ago and sent me a text to the tune of, "I almost called but thought I shouldn't. Sorry again for how everything turned out." I felt this was testing the waters. So I replied that everything was cool and no hard feelings. Since then we've had a few minor emails back and forth in which she is either wishing me well or hoping I'm better or whatever. Apparently she feels very guilty. This makes me think that (1) she did something bad like cheating (2) she has low self-esteem (3) she thinks I'm a really nice guy (4) she sees me as very vulnerable. Put it together and it seems like I lowered her IL by being too nice and showing some kind of weakness, and she responded by finding another guy and then feeling guilty.
Anyway, long run I would like to stay friends with this girl b/c she is fun to hang out with and good social proof and you can have kinkier sex with your exes. However, I figure that she will only go for that if (1) she doesn't feel guilty, (2) she still has IL, and (3) the other guy is no longer so interesting. So I'm just going to continue to lie low, keep it light, and keep my distance for now, and let her imagine all the fun things that I'm doing without her.
jophil28
Master Don Juan
Don't try to analyse this thing . She was just not into you for whatever reason. Unless she told you openly and directly, you will never know. And a woman is NOT likely to be that honest.thedeparted said:
JUst roll with this. It happens to all of us and it will happen to you again sometime. Shrug it off as one of life's little potholes ...
As much as I like to try to figure things out, he's right.jophil28 said:
I have heard women talking about how they dumped a guy for the STUPIDEST reasons you could possibly think of.
"There was just something about the way he [insert stupid reason here] that really turned me off".
Women aren't like men. Our attraction is more linear and straightforward. She's hot? She's in. That's why guys put up with so much bullsh!t from women.
With all of that estrogen pumping through their veins, you could get dumped because the wind blew the wrong way. Don't sweat it.
I feel bad for you guys living in the US, as the women over there seem to be even worse than they are here in Germany! I guess it's an industrial country kind of thing, though.
Other than moving to another country....Have you guys ever tried to meet women in environments that attract "good" people? I remember being at a brazilian charity festival (the brazilian community of that city tried to raise money for poor kids in Brazil), and other than the women being hot, I also felt that such events are probably good places to meet good women...a woman who spends her time raising money for charity (to help other people) is probably a good person, not a slut (no matter what country you live in).
I'm still a college student (but am interested in this whole "internet marketing stuff") and am probably going to try to get to know people like that by helping charity organizations with their websites. I have done it once and gotten to know two great and extremely nice people (guys unfortunately), and of course I'm not going to do that only to get to know nice women, but also to build a portfolio and because I like helping such people and their projects if I can...but it has made me think..that...you probably get to know the kind of people that you surround yourself with. And it might not be necessary to move to another country or something to get to know nice people, but it might be enough to simply get into such social circles.
This might sound like I'm overanalyzing this, and I know it'd be a silly idea to try to do certain charity projects or work if you don't have time with the sole purpose of meeting a lovely woman or something, but I hope you get the idea?
I think charity work/events are probably a good idea, but there might be lots of different things that attract nice people (including women) instead of women who think they're all spoiled little princesses or something....
Have you guys ever tried something like that?
Other than moving to another country....Have you guys ever tried to meet women in environments that attract "good" people? I remember being at a brazilian charity festival (the brazilian community of that city tried to raise money for poor kids in Brazil), and other than the women being hot, I also felt that such events are probably good places to meet good women...a woman who spends her time raising money for charity (to help other people) is probably a good person, not a slut (no matter what country you live in).
I'm still a college student (but am interested in this whole "internet marketing stuff") and am probably going to try to get to know people like that by helping charity organizations with their websites. I have done it once and gotten to know two great and extremely nice people (guys unfortunately
), and of course I'm not going to do that only to get to know nice women, but also to build a portfolio and because I like helping such people and their projects if I can...but it has made me think..that...you probably get to know the kind of people that you surround yourself with. And it might not be necessary to move to another country or something to get to know nice people, but it might be enough to simply get into such social circles.This might sound like I'm overanalyzing this, and I know it'd be a silly idea to try to do certain charity projects or work if you don't have time with the sole purpose of meeting a lovely woman or something, but I hope you get the idea?
I think charity work/events are probably a good idea, but there might be lots of different things that attract nice people (including women) instead of women who think they're all spoiled little princesses or something....
Have you guys ever tried something like that?
thedeparted
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Okay, no more analyzing.
As for women at charities being the "good" ones, good luck. If there is a magic formula or place to find the non-spoiled ones, I don't know what it is.
As for women at charities being the "good" ones, good luck. If there is a magic formula or place to find the non-spoiled ones, I don't know what it is.
"Why Women Dump the Guys Who Try the Hardest"
You paid for dinner. You drove. You said "whatever you want is fine" every single time. All the effort, no expectations.
And she left anyway — probably for a guy who makes her pick up the pizza.
Painful. Also predictable. Her mind quietly concludes that anything requiring zero effort from her is worth exactly zero. You became a free sample, and free samples get taken for granted.
The 22 Rules flip the dynamic. Small shifts that get her investing effort, money, and time in you — until SHE'S the one afraid of losing YOU.