How would you go about training for strength not size?

[Chillisauce]

Hey all, looked through the sticky and couldn't find anything on this. Sorry if i missed it!

The Question:

What kind of program would you use if you were training for overall strength gains without aiming for muscle size increase? (although some as a bi-product would be acceptable). Is the method different from lifting for hypertrophy?

My understanding of muscle building is that you increase the weight load progressively with compound movements at non-excessive repetitions while maintaining a calorie surplus diet.

Which part of this should be altered for strength training? If the same program is followed without a calorie surplus will this result in strength gains?

The Backstory:

The reason i'm asking about this is because i'm finding it extremely hard to hit the required calorie amount for my bulk-cycle. I am doing 2 hours of Muay Thai cardio and 4 k's of running each day. plus i have a light frame to begin with which means an insane amount of eating. I'm ok with not growing bigger for now as long as the weight-lifting time is not being wasted. Being stronger at my current weight would be as useful to me as an increase in phsyical size.

Currently in my second cycle of HST: http://hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html I put on very impressive gains in my first cycle due to abit of time off MT, but now that i need to eat even more i haven't put on any weight this cycle.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[MrS]

Keep reps low and heavy.
Don't have a huge calorie surplus.

 

[Mad Manic]

I'd do Bench and Squats twice a week, Deads once a week, some assistance work and train 4 days per week. Low reps in the main with a bit of med and high reps thrown in. I'd also maintain my bodyweight or have a slight calorie surplus at best.

MM

 

[MrS]

Gaining any weight or losing is all about the eats.

 

[speed dawg]

I'd go very slow and controlled reps, and no less than 3 sets with 10 reps in all the compound exercises. For the most part, size and strength go hand in hand. You can tone up and harden your muscles by doing high reps, but to really get stronger you're going to have to push big weights.

Bench press, for example, I'd go 3 or 4 x 10 minimum very slow and controlled, to the tune of 4 seconds on the negative and 2 on the positive. Perfect form.

As far as diet goes, I'd watch the fat intake and control the carbs. High protein goes without saying, and eat just enough carbs to not feel drained.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Alright, something is strange here. Whenever I do slow reps I get huge (well bigger) and gain more muscle weight. Now when I do more reps with lower weights, faster yet in still in control (think HIIT) I get stronger and more defined with less mass (because of the lower weight). Mind you that I do a ton of aerobic activity but not enough to really cannibalize myself.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Fighter training is very specific, and everyone does it a little differently. There is a lot on youtube about how different fighters train:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH3MBK-iYJ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H16H0rW1CZA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa6azBKRsdI

 

[speed dawg]

He wants strength without size, not size without strength.

It would be better to go heavy weight, low reps, long rest periods. And obviously don't have a caloric surplus.

Depends on what you call strength. When I push heavy weights w/low reps, I end up with big bulky muscles without a lot of shape.

The workout I described has a "hardening" affect on me. Still goes without saying that strength pretty much comes with size, unless he just hardens, or tones up what's already there.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Depends on what you call strength. When I push heavy weights w/low reps, I end up with big bulky muscles without a lot of shape. ...

That's what I said. Everyone's saying slow and low reps and I personally bulk up when I do that. When I do more reps at a lower weight I gain strength and definition and when I add speed to the mix I gain power.

 

[speed dawg]

That's what I said. Everyone's saying slow and low reps and I personally bulk up when I do that. When I do more reps at a lower weight I gain strength and definition and when I add speed to the mix I gain power.

Yeah, when I'm toning with controlled reps I get stronger and "bigger", but you can only tell if I take my shirt off or what not. Overall, you wouldn't necessarily see a change in size.

Personally I don't see why the OP would want to get stronger but at least not firm up a little, it's not exactly a bad thing. Most people lift weights entirely for looks.

 

[Chillisauce]

Yeah, when I'm toning with controlled reps I get stronger and "bigger", but you can only tell if I take my shirt off or what not. Overall, you wouldn't necessarily see a change in size.

Personally I don't see why the OP would want to get stronger but at least not firm up a little, it's not exactly a bad thing. Most people lift weights entirely for looks.

The answer lies in the OP , A strength increase at my current weight without putting on more weight would translate to more success at my sport. Going to take the advice suggested so far and continue with my current program without worrying too much about hitting the calorie amount.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The answer lies in the OP , A strength increase at my current weight without putting on more weight would translate to more success at my sport. Going to take the advice suggested so far and continue with my current program without worrying too much about hitting the calorie amount.

Which sport? I'm a cyclist and anything more than 5-7 extra pounds of muscle would begin to work against me so I get where you're coming from.

 

[Colossus]

Alright, something is strange here. Whenever I do slow reps I get huge (well bigger) and gain more muscle weight. Now when I do more reps with lower weights, faster yet in still in control (think HIIT) I get stronger and more defined with less mass (because of the lower weight). Mind you that I do a ton of aerobic activity but not enough to really cannibalize myself.

The answer is fiber recruitment. Slow reps with moderate weight recruits more fibers (Type IIa and IIb) because your time under tension is greater.

Type II fibers far exceed type I fibers in hypertrophy capacity. I dont remember the percentage but it is significant. The reason why you get stronger with faster reps (even at lower weight) is because you are using Type II fibers predominantly with fast, explosive movements.

Type I fibers are for sustained, low-intensity contraction. They are oxidative as opposed to glycolytic.

 

[Colossus]

Remember that strength is largely neurological. That's why you see olympic weightlifters and powerlifters who can lift ridiculous poundages, but dont necessarily look like they are incredibly strong. When you train for strength and explosive power you also "condition" your motor neurons to signal the recruitment and contraction of more fibers per unit time. You can train for strength on a moderate-calorie intake, but your gains will much less pronounced than with a high-calorie diet.

Remember Newton's second law of motion: F= ma.
Force= mass times acceleration. A 120 kg man who accelerates a barbell (or strike) at the same rate as a 85 kg man is going to produce more force.

So by training for explosiveness without gaining weight, you can increase the rate at which you accelerate a punch, kick, or whatever; which will increase the overall force of your blows. But if you gain mass and improve your acceleration the effect is magnified.

 

[speed dawg]

The answer lies in the OP , A strength increase at my current weight without putting on more weight would translate to more success at my sport. Going to take the advice suggested so far and continue with my current program without worrying too much about hitting the calorie amount.

Ah, a wrestler or boxer? In that case I'd probably go with the power movements since you have no choice in weight gain.

I'd still go moderate reps with a heavy weight, though. I don't really believe in <8 reps, but that's my personal opinion.

 

[Chillisauce]

Which sport? I'm a cyclist and anything more than 5-7 extra pounds of muscle would begin to work against me so I get where you're coming from.

Muay Thai (so fighting at specific weights), basically any muscle increase wont be bad and would be the proffered outcome of my weights training but i just cant eat enough consistently for it to work at the moment (too much cardio).

It should be easy enough to notice if the current program has been adding strength, i'm 3 weeks off completing this HST cycle so at the end i will re-do my max reps and see if any have increased (my weight 3 weeks in has not).

Thanks for the info Bible_Belt, Colossus and others.

 

[speed dawg]

Sh1t, I completely overlooked the last paragraph of your original post. Disregard my posts.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

The answer is fiber recruitment. Slow reps with moderate weight recruits more fibers (Type IIa and IIb) because your time under tension is greater.

Type II fibers far exceed type I fibers in hypertrophy capacity. I dont remember the percentage but it is significant. The reason why you get stronger with faster reps (even at lower weight) is because you are using Type II fibers predominantly with fast, explosive movements.

Type I fibers are for sustained, low-intensity contraction. They are oxidative as opposed to glycolytic.

Fast twitch vs. slow twitch. I use fast twitch primarily.