How reliable is kino as an IOI?

Matt Rogers

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Something I read from Doc Love a while ago is to give the girl the chance to break the physical touch barrier first because it is a good sign she is interested. Furthermore it does not have to be blatant, many times it will seem accidental, but because girls are very aware of their bodies, she definitely meant it!

Broadly speaking my experiences have correlated with this and I have used it as a "Go" signal to tell me it is on and escalate accordingly. Of all the girls I have slept with, they all initated physical contact, either standing too close to me and brushing against me, taking my hand, brushing something off my jacket etc.

By contrast I have consistently found that girls who aren't interested never touch me and flinch if I touch them casually and keep a good physical distance.

But recently I have had a few dates where despite getting the kino signal the rest of the signals have been mixed.

Case 1: The Russian girl who touched my arm a few times when we were talking, asked to dance, and when we were standing up watching the band let me put her arm around her waist. But at the end of the date she gave me a very indifferent kiss.

Case 2: The Greek girl who touched my hand as we sat for coffee and asked me if I wanted some coffee. We got stuck in the rain so she lifted her coat over her head and invited me to stand under it and let me put my arm around her waist. But she then ended our date abruptly short after just an hour and a half.

I'm guessing either these girls like the attention and use touch to manipulate me and get me hot. Or they are just naturally friendly and comfortable with physical contact and it doesn't mean anything to them. Or they were interested at first and after the physical contact I must have done something to turn them off.

Thoughts?
 

st_99

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Watch out for girls that kino EVERYBODY. There are girls that are very flirty, mostly validation seeking, but doesn't mean they are madly in love with you.

But yeah, its definitely not a bad sign for sure. Just keep in mind its only one thing. not everything.
 

The_411

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My thoughts would be that there's something you are doing or not doing that is causing a rather drop in interest. OF course there are the girls that st_99 describes but my guess is that you're not escalating fast enough. If you get the arm around the waist early you shouldn't be getting to kissing thirty minutes later. Arm around the waist is basically saying let's get sexual. It's up to you to escalate quickly.
 

Lexington

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These women probably weren't feeling you because they were expecting you to take charge and lead. The fundamental law of human courtship is that the man leads and the woman follows.

A girl's job in the "game" is to look pretty and not be a b*tch. That's about it. Everything else falls to you. You have to lead at every step of the way. Don't rely on "IOIs" because interpreting them is a very subjective matter and ultimately all but the most obvious IOIs are pretty much useless.

If you start touching a girl and she doesn't object, that is the only IOI you need. If she doesn't like it, she'll move away or let it be known that she's not liking it. So if you've got your mitts on her and she hasn't run away, proceed to escalate.

Most guys are afraid of escalating too fast when the problem is, they don't escalate fast enough! Women don't want to do anything. They want to be "swept off their feet." To them, the courtship ritual is a passive process. If you don't take charge, they'll lose interest.
 

Matt Rogers

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Yeah I think that makes a lot of sense the last two posters. This is two consecutive dates now that I had my hand around their waist for prolonged periods of time without the girl showing any signs of discomfort and from then on things started to go flat.

Escalation is definitely my weak spot and I'm not used to getting to that level of intimacy so early on a first date, which probably threw me.

What would have been a better way to proceed from the point of getting my arm round her waist while walking/talking?

It would make sense that if girls are passive by nature they can lose interest if a man misses a window of opportunity to get more physical.
 

bigneil

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I agree with Doc Love (and Carlos Xuma) and I never touch them first. They should at least extend their hand for a handshake when you ask their name. Or they should lean into you when you are seated next to them.

I find it hard to believe that a woman will be aroused by you touching them when she's never laid a finger on you.
 

Matt Rogers

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Well I stand by the theory that it is better if she touches you first to get a read on her interest. But I think where I am failing is that after she has given me the green light, as it were, I think the man has to do the escalation as the girl will be touchy feely if she is comfortable and attracted to a guy but won't take it forward to the next level.
 

thevilittletroll

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Lexington said:
These women probably weren't feeling you because they were expecting you to take charge and lead. The fundamental law of human courtship is that the man leads and the woman follows.

A girl's job in the "game" is to look pretty and not be a b*tch. That's about it. Everything else falls to you. You have to lead at every step of the way. Don't rely on "IOIs" because interpreting them is a very subjective matter and ultimately all but the most obvious IOIs are pretty much useless.

If you start touching a girl and she doesn't object, that is the only IOI you need. If she doesn't like it, she'll move away or let it be known that she's not liking it. So if you've got your mitts on her and she hasn't run away, proceed to escalate.

Most guys are afraid of escalating too fast when the problem is, they don't escalate fast enough! Women don't want to do anything. They want to be "swept off their feet." To them, the courtship ritual is a passive process. If you don't take charge, they'll lose interest.
^^^this is pretty much right on the money. my view is this, if a girl goes out of her way to touch you, its def an ioi, a handshake is not an ioi. thats just an acceptable social norm, same thing as a high five. if you are talking, and making her laugh, and she is putting her hand on your chest, or playfully hitting you thats the ioi you look for. some girls that are normally touchy feely, or flirty will touch your hand or arm while having normal conversation, be aware of those, not always ioi's. it is important to always initiate the kino, it breaks those uncomfortable walls down right away, but here's the part where most guys screw up. they do one move and stop there. in your case you put your arm around her and stopped there. there's a reason they call it kino "escalation". you must "escalate", continue to make other moves. start with friendly moves and work your way up to sexual moves. i feel kino escalation starts within the first minute of the conversation, and it is constant up until sex. by the time i have sex with a girl i've already touched almost everywhere on her body. here's a tip start with the handshake or high five, and tell yourself to touch a different part of her body every couple of mins or so.
 

pinhas

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RE: Russian girl; that's how they are. Don't take it personally. Russian girls are the masters of **** tests and coyness. They will test you, ignore you than be warm to you and basically just be very confusing as you are trying to get them. Culture thing.

Continue perusing and don't give up until she blatantly says no!
 

bigneil

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thevilittletroll said:
a handshake is not an ioi. thats just an acceptable social norm
A handshake is not an IOI - IF you extend your hand first like a goofus.

BUT if you ask a woman her name and she extends her hand and asks your name, that is an IOI. In fact, it's the most important IOI of all IMO.

Just ask her name and you can screen her right then and there based on whether she extends her hand and asks your name. If she does neither, stroking her leg won't do you any good. If she does, then you can use some kino because you won't be the first one to break the touch barrier.
 

thevilittletroll

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bigneil said:
A handshake is not an IOI - IF you extend your hand first like a goofus.

BUT if you ask a woman her name and she extends her hand and asks your name, that is an IOI. In fact, it's the most important IOI of all IMO.

they way that you put it, i would say yes its an ioi, but the most important....i dont think so. this is not an opionion, more like my field experience. not the most important, usually the first ioi you get. however i've banged girls and we never exchanged names or shook hands. its kind of a funny story first time it ever happened. met this girl in a bar, all her friends took off and she stayed. i ended up banging her in the parking lot in her car. when we were done i asked for her phone # and she said i dont even know your name. i said you know what? i dont know yours either. she ended up not giving me her number saying that fate would bring us together again sometime. she was right, about 2 months later, met her again, same bar, this time banged her in my truck. we still never exchanged names or phone #'s. i agreed with her that it keeps mystery and excitement into the interaction.

the point is to know how to tell the difference between true IOI's and social normalities, like when a girl is just being polite, or asks what your name is and extends for a handshake.
 

Lexington

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bigneil said:
I agree with Doc Love (and Carlos Xuma) and I never touch them first. They should at least extend their hand for a handshake when you ask their name. Or they should lean into you when you are seated next to them.

I find it hard to believe that a woman will be aroused by you touching them when she's never laid a finger on you.
If a woman touches you first, that is a good sign. But a lot of them won't. They expect you to initiate. This is just as they expect you to initiate the first conversation, ask them out on a date, tell them where to go on the date, go for the kiss, escalate to sex, lead when you dance, propose to marry them etc. The man leads, the woman follows.

A lot of women are in fact aroused when you touch them without them laying a finger on you. Of course, it has to be natural. You can't go from not touching her at all to putting your arm around her waist. But if you start with light touch early on and she's allowing it, she's basically giving you the green light to escalate. If she doesn't like, she'll let it be known. It's not hard to see when a girl is uncomfortable.
 
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