How much do you communicate about your other dates?

[oldmanofthesea]

If you are seeing a girl semi-casually yet regularly for over three months, how much, if any, do you communicate about your other dates/girls? I never do. I change the subject as fast as possible, injecting some humor if I can find it in the moment. However, this girl I have been seeing is saying that she not only wants to keep it non-exclusive, but that she also wants to communicate what is going on in our separate dating lives. I'm not into that at all and feel like nothing good will come of it. Women are so much better at emotions, manipulation, and reading people than men are, and I feel like she may use it as a control tactic or even a series of sh*t-tests. In other words, if there is a game being played here, she's going to win. My belief is that if she wants to see other people, then what she does with someone else is between her and them, and same for me.

Have you ever had a girl request this of you and if so, what was your response? If you agreed to it, how did that end up playing out for you?

 

[Glassguy]

I would assume her hamster is spinning as she either suspects or knows that you are dating/talking to other people and she is not.

I dont think any sane chick would want to tell you if they were seeing other guys after 3 months. She just wants to bleed you for information to keep tabs on you.

You are definitely doing something right to trigger this response from her, but I am not sure that her request is a good one. She is either trying to hide extreme jealousy or she wants info to manipulate you with later on.

As far as dating, If a chick asks me if I date other people (like first or second date) I give them the same response, no matter how long I have been single:

"I just got back into the dating game so I am talking to other people. Just keeping my options open right now for what is best for me"

Thats it.

If a chick has the balls to ask me early on if I am sleeping with other people, even if I am banging 3 regular chicks a week I just say "I just got back in the dating game and although I am talking to other people, I am not currently sleeping with anyone yet".

That way they dont think they will be a ONS or a notch in my belt so to speak, but I am telling them they have some competition.

As for your chick, I think I would just brush it off and tell her that since you are casually dating each other, she is free to talk to whoever she wants but ask her to at least let you know if she starts fvcking someone else. That will really put her hamster into overdrive and its truthful. Thats exactly what I tell chicks that I am sleeping with on a consistent basis.

 

[Spaz]

Yup, been in this situation.

Mostly from youngsters and those girls usually r inexperienced hence this elaborate game.

She consideres you high value and wishes to just know where she currently stands - she's qualifying you - for an LTR.

R u dating a teenager or an early 20's?

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Thanks for the replies guys.

There is a lot more to the story but I'd have to write a novel to tell it and I'm not going to be that guy.

I'd love to take credit for doing things right but I think I made a couple of mistakes and I think one of them caused this pull-away to happen. She knows I'm not seeing other women now (it's been three months and everything was progressing nicely so I figured it was time to mention it but I think that was a mistake), so her saying what she said probably came more from a place of her feeling scared and withdrawing and wanting to see other people than it did wanting to know if I start seeing someone. At the same time, she is saying she is anxious and in her head when she isn't around me and would like to spend more time with me than we have been.

@Spaz - No she's over 30

@Glassguy - Out of curiosity, if you communicate to each other that the relationship is casual, then why ask her to tell you if she starts fvcking someone else? Do you take the position that you won't sleep with a girl who is also sleeping with someone else? I under the impression that everyone sleeps with multiple people in early phases of dating.... or maybe you are saying it'd be ok with you for the first month but after two or three you expect it to be exclusive even if it's casual? I just feel like casual yet exclusive is the same as committed, because in that situation, when one sleeps with another, you break it off. Or did you have some other motive in mind when you suggested asking her to tell you if she's sleeping with someone else?

I am thinking the best thing to do here is simply tell her that I have no issue with her seeing and fvcking whomever she wants and if that is the arrangement she wants, then she can expect that I will do the same. My biggest question to the DJs here is whether or not to agree to share if/when we sleep with others. I don't see the point. If she's going to do it and start getting involved with someone, her interest level in me will drop, and she will become more distant with me as she focuses more on the other person. I will sense that and my response will also be to pull away and stop investing anything in her. And same the other way around - If I find someone I prefer to her, then I will pull away and create distance as well.

 

[Glassguy]

Out of curiosity, if you communicate to each other that the relationship is casual, then why ask her to tell you if she starts fvcking someone else? Do you take the position that you won't sleep with a girl who is also sleeping with someone else? I under the impression that everyone sleeps with multiple people in early phases of dating.... or maybe you are saying it'd be ok with you for the first month but after two or three you expect it to be exclusive even if it's casual? I just feel like casual yet exclusive is the same as committed, because in that situation, when one sleeps with another, you break it off. Or did you have some other motive in mind when you suggested asking her to tell you if she's sleeping with someone else?

Now you are asking good questions!

First off, getting a chick into an "agreed casual" relationship isnt easy. In fact, I think it's harder for a man to do this than it is a chick to get a man into a LTR.

In order to get a woman into a casual relationship, one of three things MUST happen:

1. The first is HIGHLY unlikely if you are dealing with higher quality women: The woman is a total wh0re and sleeping with lots of different people all the time. The less likely of the 3. And since I date higher value women, I would have already screened this type of woman out for potential plate. This first type of woman would be basically using you for some sex until she meets the type of guy she wants to be more involved with.

2. The woman must be EXTREMELY attracted to you and your SMV must be off the charts in her eyes. This type of woman thinks if she gives you what you want (sex) she will eventually get what she wants (a real relationship). Often the case is the woman eventually stops chasing the carrot, the man realizes over time she is worth dating instead of losing her when she gives an ultimatum (not a good idea btw) or the man finds someone better who he wants both sex and a relationship with.

3. You just fvck her like nobody else ever has. I mean you can get her off over and over and she literally gets horny at the thought of you. For a woman to put strength of emotion off to the side for something totally physical (which is the man's strength) she must really love the sex. Most often this will revert back to the #2 scenario above over time.

So now that we know that I can better answer your 2 questions even though you really only asked 1 question above:

The person who is least invested/committed has the most power. This is true in ANY negotiation. Think about that. There is no way to be less committed than physically telling a woman that you only want her for sex. Women want what they cant have or at least have to work hard to keep. It's the way they are programmed. By telling her this AND her agreeing to it, your SMV is as high as it can be with this woman. She is willing to forego her emotional needs for her physical needs which is rare for a woman. Even in 2018.

So I do this as a position of power with a woman while also sincerely not giving 2 shytes what she chooses to do. If she wants to go sleep with other guys, just tell me so I can replace you. Why? Because the end goal is to have a woman happily submit to YOU and YOU alone. Who cares if it's in a relationship or it's a fwb. That's her test and I'm telling her that I don't care which she chooses, just be up front and honest about it with me. That's it. She will either submit to me or she can keep walking.

In a causal relationship initiated by us as men, we are also being very clear that we can easily walk away if she stops taking care of our needs. Basically everything that a woman finds attractive in a man we just gave her all in one shot.

I'm not personally looking for one night stands. I am constantly building my selection of plates that I have heavily screened to get as much of what I want from them (sex) and give them as little as I can of what she wants (non sexual attention and emotional attention).

Sounds great right? The problem is very few men have the attitude, mentality and game to pull it off. If they do pull it off they lose frame with her over time and fall for her ultimatums and end up in a not so great LTR with them.

Now to answer the question that you didnt ask but maybe were eluding to: you shouldn't do this with any woman to which you already have emotional attachment. Period. The chance of being able to do this and maintain frame without being sucked back in to a failed/broken relationship with to have it repeat all over (break up included) is extremely rare. It works best with a woman who you are very early into the dating phase with and not an ex, someone that you have put on a pedestal, etc.

I guarantee if you ask any of the other members who are on this site that do great with women and give great advice to people in your situation, they will totally get what I just told you. All of us in that bracket are/have dating/dated women who eventually think they will tie us down if they just hold out and keep giving us what we want (sex). Or they really crave the way we fvck them. One of the two.
@marmel75 @RangerMIke are just a couple that come to mind.

I think in your current situation you're better off finding a new blank sheet of canvas to work with. You should never negotiate so poorly with a woman that you give up what you want just to keep her around a little longer while still not preventing the inevitable (her eventually leaving you). That's a road you should never go down with a woman.

You will never get a woman to truly submit to you in a casual relationship unless you are already fvcking her and I mean pleasing her like shes never or seldom had before. It just wont happen. So all the rules of dating and building attraction to get to that point still apply.

I hope this helps you out.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Thanks for the informative reply @Glassguy

I definitely agree with your point about the person who cares least in the relationship having the most power.

It seems like I might operate a little differently from you and a lot of other guys on this forum though. I love sleeping with women but I am extremely picky and would honestly prefer to settle down with a single high-value woman who I'm very attracted to as opposed to a never-ending stream of short term partners who I am not really into but am into enough for something short-term. I guess that makes me "relationship-focused". I never have issues with women I'm not that into - the plates - which proves your point above about the person caring the least having the most power. But about once a year, I will meet a woman who I consider high enough value to be relationship material and I will still try to apply all the same rules of the game to her, though because I'm interested in something consistent with her and not something casual, I do have to fight my urges and they sometimes come through. Every time they do, it seems like it ends up being a mistake. Kind of depressing really, but I guess you can't fight nature.

So for this specific girl, she is very recently out of a relationship and has decided she "isn't ready to settle down just yet" into an exclusive relationship. That could really mean two things: 1 - My value to her has diminished and she wants to explore other options while still trying to hold on to me as an option in case things with others don't work out or 2 - She really isn't ready to settle down and doesn't want to jump into anything.

I have three options as I see it:
1. Keep seeing her but tell her to tell me if she begins sleeping with someone else and that I will do the same, with the unsaid stipulation being that if she does, I'm gone. I'm not certain she will understand that though.
2. Keep seeing her and tell her she can sleep with whomever she wants and that I will do the same, with the unsaid point being that it seems we are both lowering our investment in one another and either of us could find someone else we'd rather be with.
3. Just let her go now

I feel like #1 is pointless because if I know she is actively exploring other people, then she might as well be sleeping with them because ultimately it's going to happen at some point with some person. That's what happens when you actively seek.

For #2, it shows that I'm not afraid to lose her at all, and that I'm willing to start seeing other people too. I would couple this with a withdrawal in my levels of time, attention, communication, investment, and responsiveness. And of course I would start actively seeing other girls again. She will see me fade away and that will either increase her interest level or cause her to fade too and if the latter happens, then I completely stop investing in her and move on.

For #3, I feel like it's too early to throw in the towel. I only end up dating a girl I feel may have LTR potential once per year, and I don't feel I have negotiated anything poorly YET - I guess it all depends on my response to her now (I still haven't responded). There is a chance she could be playing games or sh*t testing me. At the same time she mentions she doesn't want anything serious just yet, she also mentions she feels we aren't spending enough time together, feels anxious about us when we aren't together and feels great when we are together, wants to spend more time together, really likes me and thinks we could work well in an LTR. Of course, I take absolutely NONE of this to heart because they are just words not actions, but it just goes to support the fact that this might be a test, or it could simply be lip-service because she feels guilty about wanting to see others.

Would be very interested in what you guys think. @Amante Silvestre - I believe you do well with longer-term relationships - do you have any advice for me with this one?

 

[Glassguy]

Dont get me wrong, I have relationships. In the past 5 years since I have been divorced I dated and was engaged to one woman for 3 years and it was a fantastic relationship/friendship. There were a couple of issues that could not be changed (me having a daughter and her being 12 years younger than me with no kids and never been married) that we decided might be a huge obstacle for her later down the road if we had went through with getting married. Rather end on good terms than have high chance on another divorce. Sure it hurt......stung like hell.....but you still have to live life and get back out there.

I dated another for 4 months and most recently, I dated a veterinarian for about 6 months from January-June of this year. She had a few major issues that I didnt really want to get involved with, no kids, etc and it made more sense to end things in a civil manner even though she ended up going bat shyte crazy when I had "the talk" with her.

The end goal, I am certain, is that most of us want to funnel our dating efforts into finding that one woman that we really get along with, share the same interest, investment level and build on it for a LTR. The key is this: The attitude that gets them to submit is the attitude that keeps them around. Never change yourself in the process of being in a LTR because she will lose the interest and your SMV in her eyes will change if you do become too beta.

I have no qualms being with one person although I have learned to keep the others that I drop if I am exclusive into my orbit. Its nice to keep them remotely close through friendship in case the "relationship" that I am in falls apart. Its the same thing higher value chicks do to men every day and I have no problem being that way.

Spinning plates to me is having an abundance of women available for me to heavily screen for a LTR candidate over the course of our spending time together. Smartly, I choose to have several people to spend some time with and screen for the things that I am looking for in a relationship and if she falls short in key areas to be a LTR candidate, I will keep her around until my interest completely dwindles away or I find someone who is better served quality wise to be a LTR candidate and put the new one into the mix.

For the most part my plates are 25-35 years old, have master degrees and doctorate degrees, attractive and motivated people. I am not dating and screening trailer park trash my man. Its high quality only on my end.

I am not after the pump and dumps, fvck and toss women. I am after a high value woman. That means educated, financially independent, strong social circle and has the character traits that I am looking for and that I am compatible with. At 41 years old, I know what I like and get along with and what I dont lol.

I just know that by having abundance (lets say 3-4 different women available for drinks, dinner, netflix and chill....whatever) I have a major advantage on all of them. I spend less time with just one of them, I am not blowing up one woman's phone, not too heavily invested in just one, etc.

That is the key. We are for the most part all looking for the same thing at the finish line. There are for sure better ways to get from the starting line to the finish line and making sure that you are doing you and protecting you and your best interests should be the only way to travel to the end result.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Have you ever had a girl request this of you and if so, what was your response? If you agreed to it, how did that end up playing out for you?

Communication is gay. Its female biological strategy that pedals open communication only when it suits her failed SMV.

Never communicate. Speak in analogy. Use metaphors. Be vague. Ambiguity is key. Infer. Insinuate. Let her draw parallels and connect dots.

Her: Are you dating other people?

Me: Jealous?

The reframe is always met with indifference. You embed being "that guy." the follow leads to a hyper active mind.


Women are more competitive then men give credit.

Her having competition means if she's not putting out, someone else is.

 

[DEEZEDBRAH]

Thanks for the informative reply @Glassguy

I definitely agree with your point about the person who cares least in the relationship having the most power.

It seems like I might operate a little differently from you and a lot of other guys on this forum though. I love sleeping with women but I am extremely picky and would honestly prefer to settle down with a single high-value woman who I'm very attracted to as opposed to a never-ending stream of short term partners who I am not really into but am into enough for something short-term. I guess that makes me "relationship-focused". I never have issues with women I'm not that into - the plates - which proves your point above about the person caring the least having the most power. But about once a year, I will meet a woman who I consider high enough value to be relationship material and I will still try to apply all the same rules of the game to her, though because I'm interested in something consistent with her and not something casual, I do have to fight my urges and they sometimes come through. Every time they do, it seems like it ends up being a mistake. Kind of depressing really, but I guess you can't fight nature.

So for this specific girl, she is very recently out of a relationship and has decided she "isn't ready to settle down just yet" into an exclusive relationship. That could really mean two things: 1 - My value to her has diminished and she wants to explore other options while still trying to hold on to me as an option in case things with others don't work out or 2 - She really isn't ready to settle down and doesn't want to jump into anything.

I have three options as I see it:
1. Keep seeing her but tell her to tell me if she begins sleeping with someone else and that I will do the same, with the unsaid stipulation being that if she does, I'm gone. I'm not certain she will understand that though.
2. Keep seeing her and tell her she can sleep with whomever she wants and that I will do the same, with the unsaid point being that it seems we are both lowering our investment in one another and either of us could find someone else we'd rather be with.
3. Just let her go now

I feel like #1 is pointless because if I know she is actively exploring other people, then she might as well be sleeping with them because ultimately it's going to happen at some point with some person. That's what happens when you actively seek.

For #2, it shows that I'm not afraid to lose her at all, and that I'm willing to start seeing other people too. I would couple this with a withdrawal in my levels of time, attention, communication, investment, and responsiveness. And of course I would start actively seeing other girls again. She will see me fade away and that will either increase her interest level or cause her to fade too and if the latter happens, then I completely stop investing in her and move on.

For #3, I feel like it's too early to throw in the towel. I only end up dating a girl I feel may have LTR potential once per year, and I don't feel I have negotiated anything poorly YET - I guess it all depends on my response to her now (I still haven't responded). There is a chance she could be playing games or sh*t testing me. At the same time she mentions she doesn't want anything serious just yet, she also mentions she feels we aren't spending enough time together, feels anxious about us when we aren't together and feels great when we are together, wants to spend more time together, really likes me and thinks we could work well in an LTR. Of course, I take absolutely NONE of this to heart because they are just words not actions, but it just goes to support the fact that this might be a test, or it could simply be lip-service because she feels guilty about wanting to see others.

Would be very interested in what you guys think. @Amante Silvestre - I believe you do well with longer-term relationships - do you have any advice for me with this one?

Which is why you lose the marriage cuck fest and you spin plates. You have options.

A woman playing games means nothing to a man when her hotter barely legal younger sister is swallowing.

All women are capable of being a disgusting human being. They are encouraged by society. They will cling to victim status once they have lost. Her teens and twenties don't grow back.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

This is not really about sexual freedom, but simply freedom from the smothering feeling of a serious committed relationship full of do's and don'ts, similar to the one she had escaped from.

Thanks for the reply Amante. This sentence really registered with me. Her ex was extremely controlling and tried to lock her down and force her into things. There was a lot of manipulation. And she only just escaped it right around the time we started dating so it's very fresh in her mind. I think her saying what she did was probably only 20% because she wants to date other people and 80% because she was testing me to see how controlling I would be, and how needy/clingy/attached I am. Which is basically what I hear you saying.

Everything you say makes 100% sense to me and confirms what I've learned in the last year or so since I became aware. The only question I have is related to your stating you tell her when she does things you don't like, but also don't forbid or discuss consequences for doing it. This sounds like healthy communication to me, but in the last year as I have experimented, it almost seems to me like telling a woman you don't like ANYTHING at all is dangerous because it gives up too much of your hand and lets them know you are affected by them. They can use this information to play subtle games and unless you are as good as a woman at playing these kinds of games (I am not - yet, and *most* men aren't), then you are setting yourself up to lose. My hunch is that you have been at this long enough to not feel like you're at a disadvantage in these mind-games women play, and as such, you are fine with being frank about what bothers you. I'm sure I'll get there with more years of experience, but in the meantime, I feel like it's a safer bet to play my cards closer to my chest, let her do whatever she wants, and withdraw my time and attention and investment in varying degrees in response to things she does that I don't like.

I didn't get your response until after I replied to her e-mail, but I think my response was in-line with your suggestions. I also remembered something you posted months ago along the lines of, "When a girl tells me she wants to see other people, I tell her 'If you think you can do better than me, go right ahead.'" So in my response, I thanked her for letting me know how she felt, told her I understood why she feels that way, and told her I was fine with her doing whatever she wanted with anyone else and that I would do the same. I told her I enjoy my time with her and look forward to continuing it, and if it needs to come to an end one day because one of us finds someone else more interesting, then we can communicate that when the time comes, but that I'm not interested in discussing what she does with others, or what I do with others until it gets to the point where we are ready to end things with each other.

Amante, to my previous point about your being experienced enough not to worry about succumbing to emotional manipulation, I think this must also be why you are comfortable talking openly about what you do with other women or hearing what she does with other men. I'm not there yet so for me, I felt the safest thing to do is tell her I don't want to talk about that subject. She's a cute girl ten years younger than me and it would be very easy for her to have all kinds of date and s*x stories to share with me (if she set out to purposely do that) and closely watch my reaction. I do ok with women I guess, but I'm extremely picky and I'm not going to be able to compete equally in terms of number of partners. The outcome of this would be her feeling like my value is low because compared to her, it would seem like I don't have choice. I also have no desire to change my frame and spend my valuable time going out with women I don't want to go out with just to have material to play the jealousy game with her. I'd rather let her imagination do that for me while I focus on my life and just enjoy whatever time we spend together, plus enjoy seeing other women I want to see on my own schedule. If she starts investing in someone else to the point where it impacts us in any kind of way I don't like (could be less investment from her, less availability, less communication, etc), I will simply withdraw as well and focus on other things and people.

I sent the message yesterday afternoon and we had plans to hang out later that evening. She didn't reply to my response, but she was all over me on our date and kept asking when she could see me next. She talked about how open her month was and that we need to see each other more.

Thanks again for your help!!

 

[oldmanofthesea]

Bottom line: She didn't want a smothering LTR relationship, but also didn't want to be just a meaningless

Makes perfect sense - thank you. I see the reasoning now for saying you don't LIKE her seeing other guys, while at the same time, not saying she can't or shouldn't or that there will be a consequence. It communicates that you do care about her as more than a FB, but that you aren't going to try to tie her down in any way.

 

[oldmanofthesea]

She says you two don't spend enough time together for a reason. Remember that.

Yeah I had a lot of trouble with that one though.

Her schedule is almost always busier than mine. There have been a number of times when I have invited her out and she declined due to already having plans. There was even a weekend a month and a half away that I asked her if she'd like to go camping with me and she said she had the weekend open, but had already committed to things (visiting friends, sports events, family stuff, etc) all the other weekends that month so she didn't want to make plans for her one open weekend - wtf. I took all the declines with grace and said no problem, but you have to admit it's strange to complain about not spending enough time together and then give me the kind of excuse she did. None of the other already-booked weekends included time with me.

The things she is spending her time doing are mostly optional but it is her choice when she prioritizes them over me. Recently she had a sporting event she wanted to assist with, so she turned me down to go with me on a weekend trip I already was going on myself. The sporting event fell through and she said she was available but at that point, it was too late to book her a ticket. She took it with grace, but was disappointed. Once again, the sporting event was optional. She was just going for a fun time. She could have easily made plans with me instead.

Don't get me wrong, she doesn't turn me down all the time, she suggests plenty of dates on her own to me and I accept them most of the time, but that open-weekend thing was lame, and the limiting factor for us seeing each other is generally her, not me.

Last point to make - she did tell me she feels nervous and anxious when I'm not around, and then feels calm and wonderful when she's with me. This was mentioned in her reasoning for wanting to spend more time with me. I see that as a good sign, but could also just be lip-service to try to smooth over any guilt she might be feeling about telling me she doesn't want to be exclusive.