How about an Advanced DJing forum?

[DeepBlue]

Wyldfire wrote:
A question...if there were something like this provided would you be more likely to stay? I read that you were going to take a break from here, that's why I ask.


Wyldfire, I am very touched by your concern, but I should clarify that my interest in taking a break from the forum is not based on any dissatisfaction with the DJ forum.

Every so often I like to completely disconnect from all on-line activities, typically for a few months at a time, because it frees me to dive more deeply into experiencing the world off-line, makes me feel more in touch with the world of the senses, and allows me to become more deeply immersed in various aspects of life in the "real" world.

I was actually about to take such a break right as I stumbled onto Sosuave. I immediately took a liking to the place, partly because I was/am impressed by how you all work together so nicely to create countless interesting discussion threads.

Despite your occasional bickering and tussles I feel like there is a certain bond of respect between you all that adds a warmth to the place. When you bicker with each other it reminds me of quarrelling between members of a family who ultimately still respect and care about each other.

That is what drew me into posting here even as I was winding down my involvement in other areas of the net such as email communications, ASF, and other discussion forums.


Wyldfire wrote:
what happened when you made the recent post about being realistic about nexting?
Instead of having a serious, thought provoking conversation about a topic you, as a DJ, feel is important it turned into a pissing contest


Yeah, but that's OK. I can piss farther.


True, there were some discussion threads recently where I got the feeling that I was wasting my ideas on an audience that isn't sophisticated enough to appreciate, or at least to intelligently argue about, the points I was making.

I wanted to throw out some challenging ideas for the group, because that's the sort of thing that leads to new breakthroughs in one's thinking. Unfortunately, it was probably just confusing for the newbies while those who actually stood to benefit were too caught up in their current way of seeing things to ponder its limitations.

So, in a way that did stir me out of my incipient addiction to the DJ Forum, and reminded me of my previous plan to take some time off from the net. But as I said, my taking time off should not be seen as a rejection of this place.

Sure, if a more advanced forum were created (like the one I described to Galactus in an earlier post to this thread) that would make it easier and more rewarding to discuss the types of things I enjoy discussing. But the creation of something like that is probably a tall order.

I've also been thinking that perhaps instead of taking a complete break from the net, I should just ration myself so I'm posting messages only once in a while--maybe once a week or something like that. Then again, that doesn't feel the same as a complete break, so I'll have to wait and see how that works out. For now I am obviously still here, off and on.

Take care,
DeepBlue

 

[Wyldfire]

DeepBlue...thanks for answering the question. I was curious because it seems that a lot of the DJs that I've noticed really dig into the meaty topics have been one by one disappearing. There have also been numerous complaints about redundant and repetitive content in the forums. Obviously Allen doesn't have the time to read each and every last post and it's a lot of work to keep a site like this up and running. At the same time, I believe this is an issue that is too important to overlook. The newer guys need to have the right kind of influences on here, and having some of the more developed, mature DJs with a healthy attitude here is a really big part in consistency and influence. I hope there is some way to resolve this problem so that less people leave once they've gotten all they can from this place. I like your idea too, but I'm not sure if it's do-able. I've administrated very active forums before and in order to make a foum that is available to some to read and some to post would most likely require Allen modifying every last membership to adjust priveleges. That's not a big deal if there are only a few members...but it would take a lot of work to set it up. Most forum programs can allow for assistant administrators who could do the work for him...but it would require a great deal of trust to be put in that person, because they could singlehandedly destroy the whole place in error or on a whim. If he could limit administration priveleges to one forum, then he could select a handful of people to handle all the work...but that's only if this forum program allows it.

 

[BasicInstinct]

I agree with having an advanced DJ forum, not necessarily because of redundant topics, but that alot of advanced DJ skills go AGAINST what we are initially taught in the beginning.

For instance, after reading Allen's newsletter about CP (confident persistance), I realize that Next'ing every girl outright is counterproductive in the long run. But I wouldn't feel comfortable telling that to someone who just joined the forum, as it may ultimately confuse him.

Furthermore, having an advanced forum is not elitist because there are valid techniques that newbies should NOT try when they are first starting out. It will only end up confusing them in the end.

------------------
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.

It's not safe to hope for the best, without preparing for the worst.

 

[Wolf in sheep's clothing]

A couple of points to add to the mix:

This board is a forum of diminishing returns. As time goes by you will need more and more posters to gain a new DJ tip or insight. After a while the only worthwhile additions to the tips forum will be a better wording of the same old rhetoric. As much as it has been a boon, the DJ Bible only contributes to the problem and more and more we will see 'read the DJ bible' replace the comment 'next!' as the most popular response.

Any form of an invitational forum will cause as many problems as it solves. Who chooses and invites? Based on what criteria?
If all the expert DJs are off discussing things of worth in their own controlled forum, hows does a developing DJ respond with a worthwhile comment or a good question that would contribute to the thread? As it it now, everybody has the same right to post stupid comments as they have to post useful and constructive ones.

 

[DeepBlue]

Wolf in sheep's clothing wrote:

Any form of an invitational forum will cause as many problems as it solves.


It can't "cause" problems. It would not replace anything, but would merely be in addition to that which already exists.

If you are thinking that the best DJ's will then be free to go off to the expert forum, leaving the others behind, you are right! But don't you get it? You can't hold them prisoner! They are leaving ANYWAY! Except that right now they are going away entirely from the Sosuave site. So think how much better it would be if they stayed here and you could read all their posts! The notion of keeping them prisoner in the main discussion room is shortsighted--you can keep forcing them to deal with questions and comments that they don't want to deal with, because if you do that they will simply leave the site.

Yeah, so you can't post comments and questions. Big deal. Have you ever read a really helpful how-to book? Did it bother you that you couldn't interupt the author with your comments and questions? Or did you think the book was well worth the money?

You can learn a lot from reading a thread where several advanced posters are exchanging ideas.

Would you learn more if that thread was constantly interupted with tangential questions or newbie comments? I think not.

Furthermore, why should advanced posters be bogged down in dealing with comments or questions that they don't want to answer?

If you're a developing DJ then most of YOUR questions you can answer yourself by reading the DJ bible and by reading the advanced threads. And if you really need to "talk it out" then there are all the other developing DJ's to discuss things with. But all those developing DJ's shouldn't have an automatic claim on an advanced DJ's time, when their time would be better spent generating advanced material through discussions with OTHER advanced posters. And the way I'm suggesting it, that material would be available for ALL posters to see and benefit from. Currently, without the plan I'm advocating, those advanced threads are NOT available for all to see and benefit from, because currently the advanced guys have not other option for uninterupted discussions except to leave the site.


Who chooses and invites? Based on what criteria?


A critical mass of top DJ's can coalesce naturally. After that there would be a voting process every few months based on the QUALITY of people's posts in the main forum..."hey, so and so has been posting some excellent stuff. Look at this post he made, and this one, and this one here.... I think he'd make a great addition, what do you think?" That kind of thing. The goal isn't to keep people out. EVERYONE can read the threads. The point is just to limit who is contributing to the advanced threads so that you have a thread consisting of ALL advanced stuff! That is good for everyone.


If all the expert DJs are off discussing things of worth in their own controlled forum, hows does a developing DJ respond with a worthwhile comment or a good question that would contribute to the thread?


They don't respond IN the thread. Why should a "developing DJ" interject his comments into a discussion of advanced material? That isn't going to make for an advanced discussion thread and is therefore not in anyone's best interests.

Imagine that you go to a lecture to hear some top experts having a roundtable discussion on something. At the end of the lecture they are going to answer some questions from the audience.

But then someone decides that it would be more fair if everyone in the audience can ask a question or make a comment at any time.

You think that is great, because it means you will have more chances to ask a question yourself.

But then you discover that the entire roundtable discussion you hoped to hear and benefit from--never had a chance to get off the ground!!! And you just spent the whole time listening to other guys in the audience asking their random and often repetitous questions.

Anyway, what a "developing DJ" CAN do is to read the advanced threads, and then post a message in the main forum that touches on something he read about in the advanced forum. That way he has an opportunity to discuss that exact topic with other developing DJ's. He can even requote portions. He can even shout, "hey so & so [advanced DJ] when you get a chance, I'm interested to know what you think of this."

And one of the advanced DJ's may choose to chime in with their opinion, especially if they are asked to.

But the key improvement here is that the advanced DJ's are no longer being FORCED to deal with comments or questions interjected by a developing DJ. Currently they have NO CHOICE. Anyone can interject any question or comment into the midst of any discussion.

And it may seem like that is an advantage--like you'll have more chances to ask a question yourself. But in reality, you'll just end up with a lower quality discussion, like I was saying with the example of the roundtable discussion. The advanced discussions never get a chance to get off the ground so everyone loses.

And eventually the advanced guys get tired of being forced to deal with interuptions and they decide to leave.


As it it now, everybody has the same right to post stupid comments as they have to post useful and constructive ones.


Exactly. So having a separate "glass room" consisting of discussions between advanced posters, but observable to ALL, will ultimately mean more good material for everyone. It will also serve as an incentive for the developing DJ's to come up with good stuff themselves if they want to get invited to the advanced section later on.

DeepBlue

 

[Wolf in sheep's clothing]

Alright already! You've convinced me! It cant hurt to give it a try, at least

If it keeps the experienced DJs around longer, everyone benefits. The idea gets my vote, for what its worth.

 

[SoSuave.com]

This topic always makes my head hurt. It's been discussed ad nauseam in the forums and in my head over the last 2 years. I could write a freakin BOOK on all the different ways to create an advanced forum and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

But I'm still listening, so everyone who likes the idea, or dislikes the idea, should chime in here.

There are lots of comments and questions I could make here, but, for right now, I just have one:

DeepBlue, as one of the most vocal proponents of the "invitation only" idea, what if I created an advanced forum and you weren't invited to participate?

 

[DeepBlue]

Allen wrote:
There are lots of comments and questions I could make here, but, for right now, I just have one:

DeepBlue, as one of the most vocal proponents of the "invitation only" idea, what if I created an advanced forum and you weren't invited to participate?


There was never an easier question to answer. If I wasn't invited to participate, then I wouldn't be in it.

Also, let me clarify something. I am not so much a proponent of having an advanced forum as I am a proponent of doing it the way that I described.

I got the impression from OTHER long time posters here that having an advanced section it is something that THEY want, based on some sort of issue that comes up periodically with people leaving.

So I just did my best to think it through, and the conclusion I came to is that IF you're going to have an advanced section, then best way to do it is the "glass room" scenario I described. Of course, whether it is feasible is another story.

DeepBlue

 

[Drew]

People will leave regardless of what forums there are.
Also, each person has different goals, when I first saw the subject Advanced DJing, I assumed it was about advanced seduction/picking up, but rather Wyld was aiming for LTR. Just goes to show the difference even in the meaning of Advanced.

 

[DeepBlue]

Drew wrote:

People will leave regardless of what forums there are.


Hi Drew. It sounds kinda like you're saying, "oh, what's the use".

You may be right. It might not help. But you won't know that for sure if you never try it. And what I'm saying is if you're going to try it then HOW you implement it can make a huge difference.



Also, each person has different goals, when I first saw the subject Advanced DJing, I assumed it was about advanced seduction/picking up, but rather Wyld was aiming for LTR. Just goes to show the difference even in the meaning of Advanced.


Absolutely. That is an excellent point.

This may come as a surprise to some people, but I am not looking for ways to have more advanced discussions on how to pick up women, for the simple reason that I get enough of that elsewhere.

What makes this site different from the other newsgroups I belong to is the fact that it *isn't* heavily focused on pickup strategies, and feels conducive to raising and discussing a broader range of topics including relationship issues, LTR issues, and so on.

Personally, the way I envision it the purpose of the invitation only "glass room" forum is not to tie people down to discussing some official set of so-called "advanced topics".

Rather, the purpose would be to create a comparatively "quiet" zone where the "seduction philosopher" types can explore any topic in great depth.

So it isn't the topic per se that is "advanced". What is advanced is the thinking that a person brings to bear on the subject matter and the degree to which the topic is explored.

Even so called "newbie concepts" can be discussed in a way that takes the concept to a whole new level.

So this quiet zone would be a place where people go to explore a topic in great depth, if they have the philosophical bent or inclination, as well as the patience and mental maturity to do so. But you can't do that if you don't have an environment that is conducive to such discussions.

So in a nutshell, the idea is simply to provide that type of "quiet zone" for those whose thinking style will flourish there, but not for those whose discussion style is better suited for the boistrous rough and tumble of the main forum.

DeepBlue

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Drew:
People will leave regardless of what forums there are.
Also, each person has different goals, when I first saw the subject Advanced DJing, I assumed it was about advanced seduction/picking up, but rather Wyld was aiming for LTR. Just goes to show the difference even in the meaning of Advanced.

Actually Drew, I don't even think the topics themselves matter. The problem is that ANY kind of mature discussion that requires discussion of making even the slightest adjustment to the basic DJ principles leads to a pissing contest on the main forum. The Newbies need to learn the basic concepts and the second anyone tries to have any discussion of more complicated issues it ends up being a debate about not confusing the newbies. That's just not fair to the guys who have the basics down and want to take the discussions to a meatier level. Be it LTRs, advanced seduction, or discussing the Kama Sutra it really is impossible to have in depth discussions on the main forum. My point was more about giving Advanced DJs a place to have discussions that either stray from the basics or go deeper than the surface, whatever those topics may be.

The main problem I see with making it invitation only is that some people will be insulted that they can't post there. Maybe this is something that should be thrown out on the main forum for opinions since not everyone visits here. Bottom line, the more experienced guys there are here the better content the site will have. The better the content, the more successful the site and the site members. I don't see how this can hurt the forum, but I do see how it can help it. At the same time, it really shouldn't be a huge chore for Allen either. I am all too familiar with what it's like to administrate a busy forum, and having to change posting priveleges is a real pain in the arse. Because I know how much work it is, I wouldn't have suggested this if I didn't think that something like this really is necessary. I think something like this would even draw the elusive Drew into posting more than he does.

 

[DeepBlue]

Giovanni Casanova wrote:

Drew is correct when he says that there is a certain subjectivity to the meaning of "advanced".


Cas, I just spent a good deal of time writing a detailed response to Drew that precisely addressed this issue. From your response it is obvious that you didn't bother to read anything I wrote in my post to him. You just glanced at Drew's comment and went off creating a long post that just restates the same things that Drew said.

At least this provides a very clear cut example of the type of thing that makes in depth discussions here feel like a complete waste of time.

DeepBlue

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by DeepBlue:
Cas, I just spent a good deal of time writing a detailed response to Drew that precisely addressed this issue. From your response it is obvious that you didn't bother to read anything I wrote in my post to him. You just glanced at Drew's comment and went off creating a long post that just restates the same things that Drew said.

At least this provides a very clear cut example of the type of thing that makes in depth discussions here feel like a complete waste of time.

DeepBlue

Actually, DB, I read your post in its entirety before writing my "long post" agreeing with what Drew said. Re-read my post. I did NOT just restate what Drew had said, but I elaborated on a point that he brought up that I think would make a so-called "advanced" forum a complete waste of time.

Perhaps this will make it easier for people who don't want to wade through my "long" post about why I think the "advanced" forum is a bad idea:

No me like "advanced" forum. "Advanced" forum idea... bad. Current system work good. DeepBlue's "advanced" is Gio's "simple". Gio's "advanced" is DeepBlue's "simple".

No me think LTRs "advanced". Me think having many girls "advanced". Others think opposite. Ung. *grunt* "Advanced" forum more trouble than worth. *grunt*


------------------
CASANOVA

"It is often merely for an excuse that we say things are impossible."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

"When we are unable to find tranquillity within ourselves, it is useless to seek it elsewhere."
Francois De La Rochefoucauld

"We are more interested in making others believe we are happy than in trying to be happy ourselves."
Francois De La Rochefoucauld

"Absense diminishes minor passions and inflames great ones, as the wind douses a candle and fans a fire."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

 

[Giovanni Casanova]

Originally posted by DeepBlue:
So this quiet zone would be a place where people go to explore a topic in great depth, if they have the philosophical bent or inclination, as well as the patience and mental maturity to do so. But you can't do that if you don't have an environment that is conducive to such discussions.

I think this is another sticking point where I have to disagree. I just don't see that kind of environment ever coming to pass through any combination of the more frequent participants to the sosuave.com forum. You would almost literally have to go out and recruit new people to fill up your "glass room". There are definitely a lot of mature, intelligent people on this forum or I wouldn't keep coming back in the first place, but I think most of the people on here who post somewhat frequently have gotten into petty arguments or fallen into a bit of immaturity. I can't really think off the top of my head of anyone who posts quite a bit on the forums that doesn't have a little red "danger" button that can be pushed and you all of a sudden have a big argument. For some people, that's another person on the forum that they just don't get along with. For others, it's a certain topic. I will be the first to admit that I am guilty of immaturity and squabbling myself, and I am sure that I don't have to point out that in no way am I the only person who does so.

I don't think the "advanced" forum would make that sort of behavior less prevalent, I predict it would be MORE likely, because in the "advanced" forum there would be this big thick cloud of "advanced" ego to cut through. Think of how much value everyone puts to the dumb "Master Don Juan" caption under your name after a certain amount of posts, and just multiply that exponentially when you're talking about a guy who is told that he is one of the "elite advanced" that gets to go into the "glass room". I guarantee that it will be a powder keg, and it will explode in everyone's face. The question is not "if" it will explode, the question is when. And I will say for the record that even though I may or may not be "invited" to this thing if it ever came to fruition, I would certainly not participate in any way. To me, the whole idea seems more like a way to appease certain egos than to actually have any meaningful conversations that simply can't be had anywhere else.

------------------
CASANOVA

"It is often merely for an excuse that we say things are impossible."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

"When we are unable to find tranquillity within ourselves, it is useless to seek it elsewhere."
Francois De La Rochefoucauld

"We are more interested in making others believe we are happy than in trying to be happy ourselves."
Francois De La Rochefoucauld

"Absense diminishes minor passions and inflames great ones, as the wind douses a candle and fans a fire."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

"Before we set our hearts too much upon anything, let us examine how happy those are who already possess it."
Francois de La Rochefoucauld

[This message has been edited by Giovanni Casanova (edited 04-02-2002).]

 

[DeepBlue]

Giovanni,
Thanks for that very last post. That is where you addressed what I was talking about, and addressed it very well I must say.

BTW, I called your post "long" not to suggest that it was too long to read--heck, most of my posts are WAY long in that regard! I just meant that you devoted a good sized post to the fact that one person's idea of advanced topics is not anothers, and that is something I had just addressed. I pointing out that it wasn't about "advanced topics" but a "quiet zone" so I didn't want to explain that distinction all over again. At that point, I was hoping to hear a response addressing what I had written. And your last post did that very well.

So, you think that having an invite only forum is all an ego thing, and that there will be just as much bickering and hot buttons getting pressed and discussions getting derailed into silly arguments and such. Maybe. You might be right. Maybe I'm being wishful here. I really don't know.

Also I may very well be biting off more than I have time to chew. At this point I'm starting to feel like if it were created and I were invited (would be kind of funny if I weren't) then I would have some sort of responsibility to be constantly posting lots of good stuff all the time. And who knows if I will have the same amount of time to post next week or next month that I have at the moment.

Maybe the best thing for me to do if I really want to have some serious in-depth discussions is to find a few like minded people, and have email dialogues with them where we explore various themes in a giant back and forth email. That would impose no obligations on me time wise, I could get back to the other person whenever I had the time.

What would be missing of course is the varied input of others. See that's the funny thing. I really do value everyone's 2cents here. It's just that I don't want the discussion getting instantly derailed based on those comments.

With a web based group like this one, all the posts are one long linear string which means that a single post slopped down in the middle of a thread has the power to totally side track the discussion, almost as though a flowing river had been diverted off in some other direction. On Usenet the messages are like a tree, so you can glance at all the posts, but it is easy to focus in on the branches you think are worthwhile.

Anyway, I value your input. Thanks.

DeepBlue

 

[SoSuave.com]

Originally posted by DeepBlue:

There was never an easier question to answer. If I wasn't invited to participate, then I wouldn't be in it.

Well, obviously. But the question was, or rather should have been, what would you think? I could even ask how you would feel, but of course I'm not going to, cause them's girly words.

And let's assume here that you're not just passing through, but actually like this place and plan on staying for a while.

Keep in mind that your not being invited could be a possibility, as many would say that you've not been around here long enough to warrant an invitation into the advanced forum (the history, dedication, and contribution factors).


And thanks to everyone here for giving this matter some serious thought. It can be a real headache, and the more you think about it the more complicated it becomes.

 

[SoSuave.com]

Keep in mind that there are 2 different types of advanced forums being discussed in this same thread:

- Wyldfire's open forum where everyone participates and basic vs advanced is determined by content and the depth of discussion.

- And DeepBlue's closed forum where basic vs advanced is determined by the person doing the posting, presumably the advanced forum would be filled with the "deep" thinkers or those who have earned the right to participate.

It can get very confusing if you mix the two up.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by sosuave.com:
Keep in mind that there are 2 different types of advanced forums being discussed in this same thread:

- Wyldfire's open forum where everyone participates and basic vs advanced is determined by content and the depth of discussion.

- And DeepBlue's closed forum where basic vs advanced is determined by the person doing the posting, presumably the advanced forum would be filled with the "deep" thinkers or those who have earned the right to participate.

It can get very confusing if you mix the two up.

True. A closed forum would require A LOT of work for you. I know how much of a headache it would be to set that up. You would have to edit every last forum participant's forum priveledges. That's a total pain in the arse.

I think having such a forum open could work just as effectively providing the moderation was done properly and were more strict in such a forum. By that I mean...move topics that don't fit out of there and delete any posts that don't contribute to advanced discussion. If that were done more methodically people would get the hint and make the effort to stick with the program. In addition to that, if anyone were being a particular problem in the forum, you could edit their priveleges in that forum to "read only" for 3 days for the first offense and permanently if they don't reform their behavior.

 

[penkitten]

yes !!!

 

[DeepBlue]

Allen wrote:
Keep in mind that there are 2 different types of advanced forums being discussed in this same thread:
- Wyldfire's open forum where everyone participates and basic vs advanced is determined by content and the depth of discussion.

- And DeepBlue's closed forum where basic vs advanced is determined by the person doing the posting, presumably the advanced forum would be filled with the "deep" thinkers or those who have earned the right to participate.


Allen, I am not absolutely wedded to the idea of a closed forum. The part that I was adamant about is that IF you have a closed forum then the posts should be visible to everyone, so that everyone can still read them and hopefully gain from them if only by osmosis. Seeing the advanced discussions may even spark interesting discussions among the people in the "other" forum.

So it may seem like I was adamant about having it closed, but I am not! It was all I could come up with as a way to limit the occurance of disruptive comments that derail a discussion.

The truth is, I actually have some misgivings about a closed forum.

For one thing, there is the concern you alluded to when you asked me what I would do if I weren't invited. In my case, I would just chuckle and thank you for helping make up my mind about taking some time off, since I'm not going to want to interact only with the newbies.

So your concern there is well founded--there is indeed a risk of pissing people off and making them feel slighted which could undermine the great enthusiasm they currently have for the place. (Note, however that if I were to freshly arrive at the site it would never occur to me to feel slighted at the fact that they have such a set up.)

Speaking of people's enthusiasm level here, the fact that your DJ's made my thread called "the person *below* you thread" into a success is a tribute to THEIR imagination and playfulness, both wonderful traits to be around. I truly didn't think that thread would work, but they *made* it work!

My biggest misgiving about having a closed room is that you never know where the next great idea is going to come from. That is one of the cool things about having "internet sized" discussion groups.

Ideally, what's really needed is not a closed room but a way to limit the capacity of an off-topic post to derail a whole discussion.

And I think that problem is partly a by-product of linear threads, where each comment follows the next. I know there isn't much you can do about the web based format, but earlier today I was even thinking about some wild, far out solutions like having two threads for each topic--one being dedicated to the original idea, and the other, a companion thread for all the responses to the first thread.

A crazy sounding idea to be sure, but the current alternative is that people have an ingrained tendency to respond not to the original post, but to any element of the thread that happens to strike their fancy--often something in the last post on the thread. That alone introduces an inherent chaos to every discussion. Unlike the branching threads in Usenet, the web based linear thread is either 100% on track, or it's suddenly 100% off track.

In short, I've been suggesting the closed room scenario to minimize noise, despite a real concern that I won't hear from that special person out there who happens to have an idea or experience perfectly suited to the topic I raised.

I think Wyldfire's idea about having a higher level of moderation is more targetted to the problem where you have a hundred DJ's all practicing to avoid something like "supplication" and then you try to explore a subtle and challenging distinction like: "When might XYZ be okay, even though it looks like supplication?". You can count on that post immediately drowning in a sea of baby pirranahs wanting to sharpen their new anti-supplication teeth.

However, I'm not sure that moderation can solve the inherent problems of a linear thread format.

Well, I suppose I've raised more issues than I've solved here. I'm beginning to see why you said this topic always makes your head hurt. (I had to laugh out loud at that one.)

DeepBlue

PS. The linear web based thread does have a plus side. Since you are seeing everyone's reply literally on the same page there is a subliminal side effect of making you feel like you're all in the same room together, and that adds a sociable quality to the place--something lacking with Usenet.

(For those who don't know, on Usenet each person's post is viewed on the screen separately so you never see the contents of two people's posts displayed at the same time.)