history lessons

[penkitten]

i cant believe i wrote all about cleopatra and no one is going to discuss her malnipulating her brother out of the throne at all.

 

[iqqi]

Well you're saying you should get something for nothing. Talk about entitled. That's not how it works. For you to get something for nothing means the transaction wasn't win-win. It was win-lose and the other person got ripped off.

No, I think once again, you can't READ.

and...it is not a transaction, smartie. there are no rip offs.

If helping someone out isn't a "win" for you, then DON'T help someone out.

Laughing at men who think men are the logical ones...

 

[penkitten]

i think that everyone should try to help everyone and that no one should ever say "thats not my job".
we are all humans and have to make it thru this world, and we all have bad days .

 

[ketostix]

No, I think once again, you can't READ.

and...it is not a transaction, smartie. there are no rip offs.

If helping someone out isn't a "win" for you, then DON'T help someone out.

Laughing at men who think men are the logical ones...

So then why don't you help men? Why don't you buy them drinks for instances? You're the one that can't read. You think someone should essentially do you a favor and yet you should be under no obligation to even appreciate it, or do anything good back to them. Taking advantage of someone's genorosity is selfishness, no matter how you want to slice it. It's called using someone. As a woman you don't want to do anything for anyone, even when they've been good to you. That's called being selfish and a user.

 

[seth]

Iqqi, as usual you pollute the topic. And you are very un-feminine with all that shhit this shhit that.

Penkitten, there is no one single-variable dependant explanation for the mind set and status of women today. Every now and then someone opens a thread with an all explaining all encompassing theory, but that is way too ambitious for it to work. Many factors are at play.

I think the basic point you support is that women are today in a position they were forced to be in because of conditions outside their control. Joekker on the other hand is saying (if I get it right) that even though conditions were hard, they were hard for other classes of people, and that women had other choices and so they are fully responsible for what they have chosen: to manipulate in order to obtain what they wanted but at the same time be never content with what they get (because of the nature of the process).

My position would be: yes, there is a historic determinism which has led to today’s conditions for women, but, from a moral point of view they are not exempted by that. You have a choice between hard and easy, and take the easy one (because it is EASY), you become that choice. You can’t look back and say you were lead by some invisible hand to the place you are now, because at the time you did not understand the consequences of that choice. We’re not that innocent or stupid, we know what we are doing every step of the way.

People will say “god, life is crap” and then continue to make it crap themselves.

As a parallel, the some goes for men: I cannot completely accuse society for making me an AFC for most of my life, because all though it I KNEW something was wrong, and wrong with me. But I stood the AFC course because I thought it was safer and easier.

 

[Nighthawk]

Many men have realised that 'chivalrous' acts merely result in an ungrateful woman thinking 'haha sucker' or 'Well I deserve this after what my grandmother had to put up with.'

iqqi, please give an example of when you altruistically help out a random guy with anything in the way you expect them to change your tyres. (ajob which women could do if they hadn't atrophied all their muscles once they realised they could get a man to do all the heavy lifting their whole life. Men may have greater natural potential for strength, but we earn those muscles by using them)

This is why modern women are so like Nazis. The reason the Nazis rose to power, and felt justified in exterminating jews and Empire building is that they saw themselves as victims fighting back.

A victim mentality is at the heart of much selfishness.

 

[joekerr31]

A victim mentality is at the heart of much selfishness.

100% agreed!

 

[Mr.Positive]

I'm going to get flamed for this, but I believe we need more female leaders in our society. Female leaders that display strength of character that can be role models for women.

What I'm getting at is this, think back when you were 16. When you first got your drivers license, your freedom, were discovering girls, hormones raging, alcohol, peer pressure, etc. We all went through a stage at some point where we were with reckless abandon, discovering our 'manhood' as we progressed into men.

It was our fathers, male leaders, strong male leadership that was there for us growing up to help guide us on the right path as men.

Women, on a societal level, do not have that these days.

Women, in the past, always had male influence from society to guide them. But now, our society has stripped that away to some extent to where if women listen to male influence, from male leaders, it is viewed as oppressing, keeping women in line, keeping women at a lower level in society, when in fact, that may not be the case.

Women just aren't listening to men anymore.

But where are our women leaders? Oprah? Hillary maybe..

I think women need to have someone to look up to in general, quality women who understand all the advantages women have these days, but use those advantages to better society as whole, not for selfish reasons.

EDIT: To add to this, female leaders that will guide women to not only make the right decisions, but be accountable for their actions, not side step them and place blame elsewhere.

 

[penkitten]

i agree with you mr positive that there do not seem to be many good female leaders out there that women look up to, they are trying to look like jlo and act like brittany spears. people do not seem to care about morals anymore.
i do believe that if things were more equal opportunity back when people cared about their morals, religions and education then both men and women would have more moral credibility now.
by segregating women into a class that could only do certain things for so long, once women broke free of that, generally speaking, they do not want to conform to a man's set of values anymore.
men were allowed to have various wives for so long, that now the women that you are dating, start becoming cheaters because "men do it all the time".
people use each other all the time for things, but men are voicing themselves loudly on this board that they do not want to be used by women in order for her to gain financial assets. the men are tired of providing and the women demand to be provided for as a form of restitution. then we have men on the board who get very crabby if they just took a woman out on a second date and she did not give him the booty. women do not want to give up the booty just because you want it, they only want to give up the booty when they want to.
it would be nice to say that no one owes anyone anything, and it would be true. however this day in age, everyone is expecting to be taken care of by the other gender. men want a woman to act like a lady on the street, be their ho in bed and be womanlike when it comes to housework and children.
women expect men to hand over their full paycheck, comply to all the rules she sets forth and be happy with what you get because if you don't like it she can find someone else by tomorrow that will.

 

[joekerr31]

the problem though is that the females that people pay attention to get the attention cuz of their looks, not their leadership.

look at condelezza rice. she's a bloody genuis. she's a classical pianist, advisor to the president, a black woman - what she's done with her life is amazing.

and yet how many women are saying 'i wanna be like condi.'

i'll tell ya. none.

because deep down most women have no desire to acheive anything. they only take their careers seriously because they want to be independent.

but most women, when they fantasize about the life they would like to have fall in their lap, is to be an oprah or jessica beil, etc.

their fantasy is a life of attention, not of successs or contribution.

there are plenty of highly successful women out there that exemplify leadership, and yet women as a whole generally could care less about them.

 

[joekerr31]

by segregating women into a class that could only do certain things for so long, once women broke free of that, generally speaking, they do not want to conform to a man's set of values anymore.

so women are like black gang bangers? gangs exist because when slavery was abolished, when black broke free, they did not want to conform to man's set of values.

hehe.

heres the thing. no one does anything for no reason. we all have reasons for why we do x, y or z. the gang banger has reasons, he grew up poor, no education, no opportunity, etc. - so he succeeded at what there was to succeed at. but while i can understand why he is that way, it doesn't mean im going to say its ok either.

its very similar with women. i know all their arguments for why their behavior is 'excusable' - but its not. i know it seems excusable to them, but that doesn't mean it is excusable.

and at the end of the day, just like a gang banger ain't ever goign to change, neither are women. UNTIL that is men start nexting their *sses.

for instance, if every guy nexted a chic when she didn't give up the booty, chics would be giving up the booting left right and center. the reason they don't is because they use it to control a man, THEY decide when.

but the way it should work is that she should be seeing her man as the prize and she shoudl be worried that if she doesn't give up the booty he will just go find a woman who will. but women aren't afraid of this because there are so many AFCs out there who will hang around for months getting played.

in conclusion: most women are deluded, i understand how societal forces contribute to their delusions, it doesn't make it right and its up to men not to REWARD bad female behavior.

all prety simple in my mind

 

[STR8UP]

the problem though is that the females that people pay attention to get the attention cuz of their looks, not their leadership.

look at condelezza rice. she's a bloody genuis. she's a classical pianist, advisor to the president, a black woman - what she's done with her life is amazing.

and yet how many women are saying 'i wanna be like condi.'

i'll tell ya. none.

Very good point.

What would Hillary do to positively influence women?

Women will still be more interested in the Oscars than the State of the Union.

Gossip rags or political publication? Supermarket shelves will contiinue to be lined with magazines that address all that important stuff like what third world country Angelina adopts her next baby from REGARDLESS of who is the next president.

because deep down most women have no desire to acheive anything. they only take their careers seriously because they want to be independent.

but most women, when they fantasize about the life they would like to have fall in their lap, is to be an oprah or jessica beil, etc.

their fantasy is a life of attention, not of successs or contribution.

there are plenty of highly successful women out there that exemplify leadership, and yet women as a whole generally could care less about them.

I have to tell ya Joe, you think on a much higher plane that pretty much anyone here. Many many other posters offer valuable insight and each one has their own "niche", but I could think all i want and never have the kind of deep insight you have about women. Man, that brain of yours must be working overtime.

 

[joekerr31]

Very good point.

What would Hillary do to positively influence women?

Women will still be more interested in the Oscars than the State of the Union.

Gossip rags or political publication? Supermarket shelves will contiinue to be lined with magazines that address all that important stuff like what third world country Angelina adopts her next baby from REGARDLESS of who is the next president.

str8up, you hit it on the head. why are all these gossip mags, which everyone admits are utter trash, at the grocery check out. who is buying these things? women!

and oh how funny it is that oprah sits there and says how she hates the tabloids, and yet its the same peopel watching oprah that are buying the tabloids.

this is the world of woman. an emotion-based existence of envy, jealousy, gossiping, etc.

when was the last time you caught a woman buying the economist? i'll tell ya something, if i walked in to a bookstore and say a woman buying the economist, i'd probably ask her out right there and then - because THAT is a rare find indeed.

and the question should be asked, why don't women buy things like the economist? i mean, the economist is not a male magazine, its a worlds issues magazine.

women don't buy it because it has nothing to do with attention. when they buy the traditional female magazines its ALL about attention. "so jessica, tell us, do you prefer strawberries or rasberries?" - and women are like 'oh i wish i was so famous that people asked me what kind of strawberries i liked!"

where as male readers are like "wtf? is this reporter mentally retarded?"

and this is why i say earlier - there are reasons why women behave as they do. the sh*t they are pumping in to their brains is garbage. garbage in garbage out as they say.

anyway, thanks for hte compliment str8up. i've been smoke free for 2 days now and feeling like total sh*t, so you lifted my moods for a moment, appreciate it.

 

[STR8UP]

for instance, if every guy nexted a chic when she didn't give up the booty, chics would be giving up the booting left right and center. the reason they don't is because they use it to control a man, THEY decide when.

but the way it should work is that she should be seeing her man as the prize and she shoudl be worried that if she doesn't give up the booty he will just go find a woman who will. but women aren't afraid of this because there are so many AFCs out there who will hang around for months getting played.

in conclusion: most women are deluded, i understand how societal forces contribute to their delusions, it doesn't make it right and its up to men not to REWARD bad female behavior.

all prety simple in my mind

That's why I see a change on the horizon.

Men are getting fed up with being led around by what most of the time amounts to nothing more than a hot piece of ass (and sometimes not so hot), and they are waking up and realizing (hence this site) that they have been fed a big truckload of bullsh!t their entire lives.

You know, I have my doubts that Rollo's book will be an immediate hit.

It will contain some of the most valuable insight into female behavior ever written, but men aren't quite ready to hear the raw, uncensored truth.

I would be willing to bet that in time it will become a "must have" for a man on the path to self improvement.

 

[Nighthawk]

when was the last time you caught a woman buying the economist? i'll tell ya something, if i walked in to a bookstore and say a woman buying the economist, i'd probably ask her out right there and then - because THAT is a rare find indeed.

My gf is currently reading (economist) Alan Greenspan's autobiography. My previous LTR was an English teacher better read than me. To be fair, there ARE quality chicks out there (that are also smoking hot). Rarer than hen's teeth though.

And thanks again for you know what.

And I agree that we are on the verge of a cultural backlash. I would buy shares in Rollo's book.

 

[iqqi]

So then why don't you help men? Why don't you buy them drinks for instances? You think someone should essentially do you a favor and yet you should be under no obligation to even appreciate it, or do anything good back to them.

I shouldn't reply because you are just retarded.

I am pretty sure that I did not say anywhere on this site that I don't help men, and that I don't appreciate favors. (I'm sorry, should I have a $5 bill ready for every time I come across you and your favors? BTW- that women who gave you $5 for changing her tire is the disrespectful one, and you were a chump for taking it... but you would never understand why).

Furthermore, I do actually believe that I said in my other thread that I would buy a man a drink... and alas... I have!

You are missing the point entirely.

And once again pointing the finger at a woman instead of owning up to yourself what kind of loser you are.

You are petty. You do "good deeds", but only with the mindset that someone must now owe you something. So therefor, you don't even do good deeds. You do one sided bargains, then get bitter when you don't get something from it.

Gross.

 

[Interceptor]

So then why don't you help men? Why don't you buy them drinks for instances? You're the one that can't read. You think someone should essentially do you a favor and yet you should be under no obligation to even appreciate it, or do anything good back to them. Taking advantage of someone's genorosity is selfishness, no matter how you want to slice it. It's called using someone. As a woman you don't want to do anything for anyone, even when they've been good to you. That's called being selfish and a user.

Iqqi, I am really looking forward to your reply to this.

EDIT: Posted BEFORE I saw your reply. Sorry.

Iqqi, the impression I got was that you don't even say a "Thank you" to the guy. That's just my impression. And I think KEto was reacting to that as well.
You didn't spell it out. And you're "men like that sh*t comment was not cool.
So we just adressed what we inferred formyour post.
NO ONE IS ATTACKING YOU.
k?


Youj know it's going to mean to take a hard, cold look at yourself.
Now, I'm not saying thatyou owe me or anyone anything on the forum, but I was under the impression that you're here to help men understand women, and help them create better relationship with womens as their partners.

I must say I was a bit taken a back with your "Men love that sh*t" comment.
Man, if there's a least one thing I hate is when a women talks in a condescending manner about us like that.
Iqqi, many men feel that it is an honorable duty to help a woman in distress.
The fact that you seemed to have made that into a mockery of men is really disappointing.

Now, fair is fair. There has been a little anti woman attitude here and there.
So, I understand if you feel like saying your peace and "fighting fire with fire."
But, you know what?
It seems to me that the best thing we can do is act on our Higher Selves counsel.
Rise above the conflict here. IMHO thisd shoudl go for everyone here.
When you stop to think about it, we are sort of a community here. There's not that many of us in here either.


And I think everyone here shoudl take a step back in induling in the Black and White perspective. Painting with these broad brush strokes is something we often advise against doing.

Let's not be hypocrites, and really examine if what we're saying here is our true, deppest conviction, or a reaction.
All I'm saying, ok?

Hell, I still love women. I want to be an even better man.
I want to be the best partner to a woman I can be.

I ain't here to indulge in female bashing or exhuming dead issues.
ANd I agree that in Point/Counterpoint discussion of these issues. It's good and healthy. I also agree that if women folk are going to raise historical hardship issues, menfolk should too by God.
But let's try to keep a positive, growth oriented perspective on this.
IDK I just get this angry feleing from this thread, adn IMHO it really shoudln't be that way.

Also, I don't know about you guys, but I always thought a true Don Juan doesn't let these kinds of grievances get to him that much.
Am I wrong??



Ok , streamfoconscuiousness post over. Flame away.
:woo:

 

[iqqi]

iqqi, please give an example of when you altruistically help out a random guy with anything in the way you expect them to change your tyres.

Hmmm... I would give you an example, however that was not my point actually.

My point was YES there are differences among men and women. And YES I play on those differences, I embrace those differences, I LOVE those differences. That is what most healthy men and women do!

I know why men drive me crazy, I don't bash them or hate them or even blame them! Some of them suck! Alot of them suck! But I know all of them do not. And thank god, cuz then I might sound as lost as some of you.

For those of you who feel you must change because you fear repercussions for being manly:

Many men have realised that 'chivalrous' acts merely result in an ungrateful woman thinking 'haha sucker' or 'Well I deserve this after what my grandmother had to put up with.'

Well you are little pvssys! It is sad!

And to further relate, I don't know many "quality" women who would really be serious about you. Which could explain your hopelessness regarding women!

 

[joekerr31]

Hell, I still love women. I want to be an even better man.
I want to be the best partner to a woman I can be.

part of me wonders how much we as men really like women and how much of it is we like to f*ck women.

i mean, if we actually liked how women behave and think and feel, then most of us would have tons of gay friends also - since most of them act like a woman.

so why is it that most (not all) straight guys really don't enjoy hanging out around gay guys, and yet we do enjoy hanging around women.

when you look back on history, men didn't hang out with women. they did whatever they did with other men during the day, then came home, ate the supper the woman had cooked, had sex, then went to bed. a woman was primarily a cook, a maid and a sex toy.

it's only when women started to become romanticized in literature and paintings, and when they were held up as 'prizes' by rich men (who ironically considered them a prize the way he would consider his beagle a thoroughbred and hence the prize), that they suddenly gained so much influence in the male world.

 

[iqqi]

Iqqi, the impression I got was that you don't even say a "Thank you" to the guy. That's just my impression.

You got that impression because you are prejudiced about me especiallly, and women in general. I always say thank you and please to EVERYONE. Not only is it the right thing to do after an act of kindness/chivalry/generosity, ect, it is charming.
It is ladylike, and it is good manners.

I must say I was a bit taken a back with your "Men love that sh*t" comment.
Man, if there's a least one thing I hate is when a women talks in a condescending manner about us like that.

It is funny that you see that as condescending. No offense, to each there own!! Maybe this whole site is condescending to women... did you think of that. Put that in context with what you said about my men love that sh!t comment and tell me what you get.

Thank you. (BATS EYELASHES EMOTICON)