History Lessons/Nature of Women Discussion

[TheHumanist]

I have been lurking in the Mature Men forum a lot lately since it have take a large turn into discussion about women and their nature. About three threads came up, two are still active. The one most active is Penkitten's History Lesson thread. http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=133060

Penkitten originally wanted to use history as the place to start a discussion stemming from The Myth of the Quality Women thread where Penkitten's post follow's Colossus's post.

I have to stand on the side that labeling a woman as 'quality' or not can be a convienient mechanism for ignoring your own misgivings. It is easy to take your own lack of understanding in dealing with women and the difficulties it creates and simply project that onto a given woman (or women), saying they are 'low quality'. It alleviates you of the responsibility you have to change your perspective.

It has been said a hundred times already, but quality is in the eye of the beholder.

After that, the discussion went to penkitten's thread with a few tangents remaining in the other one.

At this point, the growing idea is all women at their fundamental core is "for lack of a better word" opportunistic and exploitative

This is exactly it. You nailed it Joekerr. This is what I've been saying and I think Str8up has been saying, although I don't want to put conclusion in his mouth. Women do not really care about the guy per se, they're not really even that picky, actually less pick than men only wmost women have more options than most guys have, inversly porportionate relationship. Women only care about, for lack of a better term, opportunities and exploiting a relationship with a man. The emotions women like so much will come automatically with the opportunity. This is their nature. It has nothing to do with what men did or didn't do in the past. Only the present matters.

In the basic terms, the women never truly cares for the man as a person, just care of what he has to offer. If the man falls on hard times or something like that, she will not start worrying about her, she will instead start looking for a way out. This also means she will only "love" him so as long he is still a "winner" (I say winner for the reason can many times not be monetary, but she will only stay as long he hold her idealization or something).

I can't make my own post, I'm too young. How can I argue when many of they have been through marriage and some is well into their 30's and 40's. There's good reason why there a set age limit.

Still my experiences reject this idea. I don't contest that they have met women that basically devestated them. Hearing how Str8up's ltr ended and another poster's marriage ended, I can see where they are comming from. However, I would go insane... if I start having of the mentality that 9/10 or higher are low quality, incapable to true attachment, and will rip my heart out without remorse. How can I start thinking the girls I know, that most of them are in their core like that? Is that what a DJ thinks? Perhaps I rather stay "blind" for at least I won't have this conflict and guilt that I already sometimes feel, even though my experiences have not (yet?) reflected as such. Already sometimes I look at girls with more suspicion, which may not be appropriate. In addition, especially since I been told I look for the good in people, my experiences does not reflect that girls are like that. Many ask the same questions and doubts we do we... or so it seems. What should a DJ should think women as?

 

[TheHumanist]

No one interested?

 

[penkitten]

i think there are different kinds of women, some who are always out for themselves, and others who care about others.

take mother theresa, whom never intended to take anything away from anyone, whom always helped others, and who tried to spread nothing but love to all those she passed by.

no, i know you won't be dating a nun.. but she is none the less woman, one with self discipline and love that drove her to lead the life she did.

however, there are others, like cleopatra, who would do anything to get what she wanted.

i think using history references is great, because you can see how far back in time people had such mindsets.

i always tell others to be on the look out when it comes to their heart, but no man can live in a bubble. he must go out and experience what he yearns to experience.

by understanding the nature of others, and where things stem from, perhaps he will be successful in his endeavors....

kuddos to your thread, as it is much better worded than mine.

 

[Nighthawk]

Mother Teresa was no saint. She let kids die rather than give them medical attention, and cosied up to evil dictators. Don't believe the hype. Nuns are generally evil, bitter bitches.

 

[iqqi]

. if I start having of the mentality that 9/10 or higher are low quality, incapable to true attachment, and will rip my heart out without remorse. How can I start thinking the girls I know, that most of them are in their core like that?

Is that what a DJ thinks?

No.

I think the happiest men are the ones who don't think that way. Alot of the times, it is what you make it. Some people find it easier to point the finger at someone else, and never address what they themselves did to arrive where they did.

There are sh!t men, and there are sh!t women. On the flip side there are great catches on both sides. Half the battle is recognizing a sh!t person, before investing your emotions into them. Another important part of "battle", is to remain clear headed after a loss, and be able to learn from it to better yourself, not blame a mass amount of people you don't even know based on their sex alone.

And you have to take everything you read with a grain of salt.

 

[swifTy]

this is a good thread man. and its something ive definately come to realise.

with men and women its usually options meeting options. She's got a lot of options. and you have a lot of options. So you pair up.

it is value meeting value. she has the looks. she needs protecting. you have the status, money, social power. you protect her. she will feel safe around you. you keep her around bcoz she is loving and nice and hot. she keeps you around bcoz you got her back. you are the man. you are social. you dominate. she will stick to you like glue.

then perhaps love kicks in, and you both glue to each other. maybe long enough to have kids. love is not unconditional!! it is your bodies response saying keep this girl around!! she is the goods. but if the goods dissapear, and same for you, the love will fade.

so in that sense women are creatures of opportunity. but so are men.

and i agree with looking to history for examples. history is where its at.

 

[Last Man Standing]

Only marry and love a principled woman with strong values - a virgin!!!! Problem solved!!!

 

[swifTy]

LMS your a nut.
but you funny.

you should just have one thread. it can be your thread. and in it you can say. ONLY marry a virgin. Do not marry a hor. lol.

seriously tho. are you married? did you get your virgin?

and fwiw i agree with what you say 100%. Im still lookin. and takin my search more seriously. going down the church to do some scopin. the girl im goin with. she is ONE of those virgins. she's hot and everything but she's already in the loop. she got a man. but hey where theres one, theres more. she has friends.

 

[TheHumanist]

Mother Teresa was no saint. She let kids die rather than give them medical attention, and cosied up to evil dictators. Don't believe the hype. Nuns are generally evil, bitter bitches.

Any evidence for that? That was from Penn and Teller was it? jezzz.... hope that is not true, if nuns are "generally evil" then is anyone good?

To iqqi and penkitten: That's is conforting, how can I trust anyone if I think like that?

Come to think of it, the thought that all women are angels (the extreme AFC case) and all women are evil (perhaps that's too extreme, but there is talk that women are never loyal or truly care for their man, only act) both on the extreme side on the view of women. We can all agree that all women are, heck, many here think the exact oppostie, perhaps other idea about women is the other extreme and therefore could be a too extreme thought too. I can say that I have seen women act coldly, but I have seen women with remorse as well. It makes it hard for me to think of the that side, at least until I experience it, of course, I honestly hope I will not.

Edit: Thinking a little history, might I add in Abrigal Adams? I remember from my studies in US history, she was a very intellegent and good women.

 

[swifTy]

Come to think of it, the thought that all women are angels (the extreme AFC case) and all women are evil (perhaps that's too extreme, but there is talk that women are never loyal or truly care for their man, only act) both on the extreme side on the view of women. We can all agree that all women are, heck, many here think the exact oppostie, perhaps other idea about women is the other extreme and therefore could be a too extreme thought too. I can say that I have seen women act coldly, but I have seen women with remorse as well. It makes it hard for me to think of the that side, at least until I experience it, of course, I honestly hope I will not.

Bro, did you hear what i said?

women are creatures of opportunity.

the same girl that can act oh so cold towards you, can also be the girl who loves the pants off of you. It depends on whether you are the goods or not. If you are, she will stick to you like glue, and probably fall in love with you. If you aren't, forget it, she will act cold towards you, even tho you are the same person! i have experienced this first hand and i am sure other guys can testify.

 

[iqqi]

the same girl that can act oh so cold towards you, can also be the girl who loves the pants off of you. It depends on whether you are the goods or not. If you are, she will stick to you like glue, and probably fall in love with you. If you aren't, forget it, she will act cold towards you, even tho you are the same person!

So if I was you, I wouldn't date THIS chick.

Its all about recognizing parasites, and staying away.

Adj. 1. opportunistic - taking immediate advantage, often unethically, of any circumstance of possible benefit

Lol, alot of people are like this. Men and women. Recognize it! And then be able to leave it alone. or use, and be used. however you want it.

 

[swifTy]

cheers iqqi

will do.

howd you know anyway?

 

[TheHumanist]

Bro, did you hear what i said?

women are creatures of opportunity.

the same girl that can act oh so cold towards you, can also be the girl who loves the pants off of you. It depends on whether you are the goods or not. If you are, she will stick to you like glue, and probably fall in love with you. If you aren't, forget it, she will act cold towards you, even tho you are the same person! i have experienced this first hand and i am sure other guys can testify.

Bro, I did heard you, I'm speaking and I thought that the worse ideas of the AFC is the idea that all women are virtuous and kind. That their nature as mothers and so on means they are the "better half." Or so the image says, then I thought of the "creatures of opportunity" is the opposite side, nothing is more cynical and opposite of alturistic than opportunistic.

I thought then therefore since extremes are generally false (think of all the advice that is said to never take it too extreme or other things like that), and it is usally many things are in the middle, that the true nature could be in the middle too. It make sense going as humanity trend to be on the bell curve a lot and and extremities are outliers.

Now since you said men and women both have a lot options so both pair up for optimal options which the feeling of love will come from afterwards. Since you said men are no different, the better idea is humanity is oppotunistic. Extrapolating from you other post, men will act just as cold if the women loses her value too.

I do know about that part, fully fleshing out that (if you are saying that), at least doesn't sound as bad since it is both sides at least. However, that might mean your word is incorrect. If you only meant that a couple have a duty to care for each other and be active (I remember reading a post that compared a husband to a job, in a job you cannot refuse to show up to work and then say "It's my job!" and a marriage is the same, you can't turn complacent and do nothing and expect to keep the wife around). As iqqi pointed out, oppotunistic mean that women only want men around to use them for their own gain, once they are done, they just throw them away. This means that everything they do is an act.

This means the girl that the pre-med girl that is torturing herself with work (I cringe of what they face) is only an act. This means that if a girl check on a man who is sick checks-in and brings soup is only an act. This means that when I hear a girl ask the same question about men as we here ask about women is an act. This means that the professor's wife who help him/tolerate with so many of his antics is only an act. This means that kind high school english teacher that goes out of her way to help her students and even unbelieable effort cheer them up a good friend of mine who he fell in truly hard times is not her good heart, but an act. If it isn't to their interest (or our own) we (since it both males and females) will never put effort.

Of course, having an interest at stake will always drive people, but I have hard time thinking that the good acts of people (or women) are just actions to their benefit only. Though I have engage in discussions that all actions of humans are to their own benefit, though that is a seperate discussion.

 

[penkitten]

Thinking a little history, might I add in Abrigal Adams? I remember from my studies in US history, she was a very intelligent and good women.

good reference !

as far as knowing whom to trust... i would suggest to go with your gut.
i never know when someone is about to screw me over... but that is my downfall.

 

[potato]

Mother Teresa was no saint. She let kids die rather than give them medical attention, and cosied up to evil dictators. Don't believe the hype. Nuns are generally evil, bitter bitches.

I went to a Catholic school 1-8 grades. Cross them and those nuns could become some of the cruelest creatures on the planet.:trouble:

 

[swifTy]

yes i see what you are saying re the whole altruistic thing. in my mind the only people who can be truly altruistic are the ones who already have everything. 'everything' will differ from person to person. for example for me, if i am in love, i am the most happy bastard you will ever meet. I will give you money, i will do you favours, ill do pretty much anything you want- and- it will come from a place of pure love and kindness. But its not really me, its just that i feel good already and i want to spread it. If im not in love, i can be cold, indeed.

Rare is the person who, just is, altruistic. Its not human nature i dont think. Everyone is motivated by their own interest. thats how it is.

 

[potato]

Bro, did you hear what i said?

women are creatures of opportunity.

the same girl that can act oh so cold towards you, can also be the girl who loves the pants off of you. It depends on whether you are the goods or not. If you are, she will stick to you like glue, and probably fall in love with you. If you aren't, forget it, she will act cold towards you, even tho you are the same person! i have experienced this first hand and i am sure other guys can testify.

This isn't always true. Sure some women are but some aren't. Most of my girlfriends have seemed to like me for my company rather than for what I could do for them.

Maybe it's the way one approaches a woman, how one tries to impress her. I always see guys trying to impress women with their car, or their job, their clothes and jewelery, or tales of their vacations - thinking that women are more impressed by those kinds of things.

I'm more inclined to use my character and my creativity to catch a woman's imagination, things that I'll always have and she can't find anywhere else.

 

[iqqi]

I'm more inclined to use my character and my creativity to catch a woman's imagination, things that I'll always have and she can't find anywhere else.

And that is probaly why you are "lucky" in love. Good job, you are lightyears ahead of most people.

 

[swifTy]

your character and your creativity are still things that take time to actualize. i remember david lynch saying he didn't have an original creative thought until he was like 21 or something. if you meet her before you have your character worked out; cold she may be. Your character is indeed value. It could be your biggest asset once developed. That same girl who dogged you, might all of a sudden, go into a frenzy for you, she must have you. its all about having the goods.

see what im sayin?

and this is what i struggle with, with my particular girl. If i met her now, on equal footing, together we may be. hmmm.

 

[TheHumanist]

hmmm....

For the alturistic statement, if you think in a way, if you not in a good position, how can one expect to be alturistic. One can compare to expecting the poor to donate money to help the poor. How can one expect the poor to spare something that they can't. This is a bit too simplistic, but it is much easier to go after alturistic endeavors, if you don't have to screw yourself overi in the proccess.

your character and your creativity are still things that take time to actualize. i remember david lynch saying he didn't have an original creative thought until he was like 21 or something. if you meet her before you have your character worked out; cold she may be. Your character is indeed value. It could be your biggest asset once developed. That same girl who dogged you, might all of a sudden, go into a frenzy for you, she must have you. its all about having the goods.

see what im sayin?

and this is what i struggle with, with my particular girl. If i met her now, on equal footing, together we may be. hmmm.

hmm...

Thinking from another perspective, people need to guage others by some measure. Character and creativity are large part of the person, his identity, if he have no character and creativity, he would be a completely different person. No compatibility. It could be seen that character and creativity are "value" but it is not the same sense as the others value that men and women can use. Thinking this way, it doesn't prove opportunistic is the correct idea at least.

Opportunistic is not about one person not just making use of what another have, it is to take advantage of others with no remorse or guilt and then when the use is gone, throw them away without gratitude or exchange/compensation. This can then also means that there "care" for others or even attachment. A thought I will have a hard time to think about and I wonder the validity, it is what I battle in my head many times. I have to question than how true is that, unless there is no place to care for the fellow humanity.