Growing legs for cycling

[Zircon]

Howdy,

I'm 5"11 155 pounds, 25 years old and at the moment training for track cycling (200m flying start up to 1km standing start). The events last anything from 10 seconds to 1 minute - ie it is mostly pure anaerobic sprinting.

I need bigger legs.

My training: at the moment about 6 hours a week cycling (easy spinning just to keep the legs going), 2-3 hours gym (only legs at the mo) and 2 hours Kung Fu (upper body + stretching) per week.

I try to eat well although I do not have a set meal plan. I normally have about 1-2 protein shakes a day (say 40 g carbo + 20 g protein). cycling creatine 3 weeks on 1 week off 4-5g a day.

At the gym I do 3 times a week leg presses ( 5 sets going from 18 down to 10 reps, with weights from 270 kg (600 pounds) up to 400 kg (880 punds).

I see some gains, but not too significant (I've gone from 145 pounds to 155 pounds in 6 months, but it's tapering off now).

I need to be at least 165 - 170 pounds in 3 months for some competitions.

Advice?
thanks

 

[wheelin&dealin]

Originally posted by Zircon:

I need bigger legs.

Heavy squats and heavy deadlifts.

 

[Zircon]

Ok.

How many sets, what weight. Are leg press useless or what?

 

[wheelin&dealin]

I do something like this for a leg workout:

Squats 4 x 8 (sets x reps)
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts 3 x 8
Leg Press 3 x 15
Leg Extensions 3 x 15
Leg Curl 3 x 12


Make sure to do Squats and Stiff-Legged Deadlifts because these are important compound movements for overall body development. Leg Presses are not as useful as these exercises but they are good to fit into a leg routine because they use the muscles in a different way. Use an amount of weight that you feel comfortable with that doesn't compromise your form. Judging by your stature I would say you should start squatting and stiff-legged deadlifting at about 135 lbs then move your way up.

 

[The Irish Tongue]

You want explosive power. The best lift I had in football as a lineman was squats and dead lifts as was mentioned.

Also, since you need to be explosive, you need to train the same way. That means quick, energetic lifts...BUT NOT OUT OF CONTROL.

Try deadlifts at 50% of your max, but blast out on each repetition. Kill the weight on each rep, get hyped up....same mindset as before a race.

The point is to train your muscles to have huge amounts of explosive, on demand power...but still under control.

As far suppliments go, check out Lean-Cuts or Animal-Cuts. Did wonders for my max squat when combined with creatine. A word of warning on creatine- Keep yourself hydrated and keep your levels of potassium up. That means drink lots of water and have at least one banana a day.

 

[Soshyopathe]

Your leg workout should be something like this:

Squats
Deadlifts
Leg Press
Calves
Leg Press
Calves
Leg Press
Calves

Then stationary bike for 10-15 minutes. With your squats, make sure you know the proper form. Start out with 135 just to get your form down, then your can work up. The squats and deadlifts are for your raw power and coordination, you shouldn't be too explosive with them for fear of back injury. They are just there to up your test and GH.

But your leg pressing is your time to shine. They're great at the end of a leg workout because you can load it up and not worry about failing and falling on your ass. On the way down, lower it down slowly and controlled, then on the way up, EXPLODE and let out a forcefull grunt.

Your biking will be your warmdown. Start out with moderate to high resistance, and slowly work down.

 

[Maurizio]

I'm an elite level cyclist too in the states, but I specialize in longer Road Races and Time Trials. I know that my events are at the opposite end of the spectrum as yours, but I'd suggest also trying some plyometric movements. Do a search for "plyometrics" or something like that and I'm sure you'll get an idea.

My coach had me start doing Plyometrics leading into this past season, and my sprint was stronger than I've ever seen it. It really helped my initial kick.

When training for any distance time trial, I estimate the duration the event will take me (I'm estimating the kilo takes you maybe 1 minute 10 seconds), cut that time in half (35 seconds), and then in training work on intervals of that length at the maximum intensity possible. In actual competition I ride at the same pace as I did in the 1/2 length intervals. As long as I'm pumped up and focused, I don't fade at that intensity, and it's about as tough as you can ride without cracking yourself towards the end of the effort.

I'm not suggesting that any of this will help you gain mass. You definately need to lift to accomplish that.

At your size, why don't you just consider doing the pursuit as your event? You're a good size for a lot of the longer distance events.

- Maurizio

 

[Zircon]

I will look into plyometrics. Sounds worthwhile inverstigating.

Maurizio, for interests sake, what are your physical stats?

I used to be a road cyclists until I realised I was fighting a losing battle . My hr would be 190 while other ppl would cruise on 175 or 170. And it's not as if my hr is very high, My lactate threshhold is around 180 resting hr 45 and max hr 203.

So I turned to track cycling where I though I could make good use of my sprinting abilities. I can generate about 1000 watt for 15 seconds which is considered pretty good (considering my size). So now I'm trying to reach a new level and I believe starting out with bigger legs will give me an advantage.

I would consider longer events although I would have to work a lot on endurance (which is shocking).

Thanks, looking forward to hearing more from you.

 

[Crr0298]

The best cyclist to ever live

I f you want the best way to learn to get in shape for any type of racing on bikes I highly reccomend "Lance Armstrongs performance workout" book I have used it myself and have seen significant gains in all areas of cycling. (i.e. mtn climbs, sprinting, endurance...etc.)

 

[Zircon]

Yep I've got a copy of the book. It's damn amazing, although if you really want the FULL version you have to take out a membership on the net (not cheap).

Maybe I should concentrate more on that than on going to gym and building big legs? Seeing as it has worked well, although as I said I'm trying to get over a certain plateau by stretching my body to limits which I have not tried.

 

[Maurizio]

I'm sorry, but I have to dissagree about the "Lance Armstrong Performance Program" book being that good. I think it's mainly good for beginers. All of the programs that it outlines for you are WAY WAY too easy for any cyclist who's a Cat 3 or higher. Crr0298, are you a cyclist too?!?! I didn't expect to find many cyclists here.

Zicron, you mentioned membership on the net... What you're talking about it the Carmichael Training System. And that coach I mentioned in my last post was working with them.

Last year after getting invited to the Junior National Development Camp, CTS offered me a scholarship, and I had to pay relatively little for their highest level coaching package. So I gave it a try. I stuck with my coach, who's name I will not mention, for about a year before deciding that the CTS way of training wasn't for me. It's VERY VERY structured, and VERY VERY particular. Some days I was told to ride four hours with some intervals at very specific HR, when I only felt like riding for two hours. And other days I was told not to ride at all when I felt like riding six hours. I understand pretty well what all the CTS athletes are doing after having been with their program for a season, but would rather go by my own training programs.

My stats:

17 Years old. 6' 3" tall. 167 lbs race weight. 42 BPM resting and 205 Max. When rested my LT is at about 187 BPM. My max wattage is 1180 (good for a junior rider, but not good enough to win PRO,1,2 field sprints) and I put out an Average of 900 watts over 24 seconds (which was how long it took me to do a MAX power test on a computrainer from a stand still). I have long femurs.

I actually was just at this Development Camp in NY to do some Computrainer Tests. I did an endurance test where you start at 150 watts, and every minute the wattage goes up by 10. I lasted 23 minutes 30 seconds before cracking at 380 watts. It was the highest of any rider at the camp, including two Espoirs. The head of the camp was excited with my results, and wants me to ride the Pursuit at Track Nationals since he thinks I'd be good at it. He's GIVING me a bike. So I may be joining you at least part time on the track. I also qualified to get to live at the Olympic Training Center during June with nine other juniors to compete for spots on the National Team.

How old are you Zicron? I ask because I'm wondering if you still harbor ambitions of going pro. You mentioned that you switched from road to track cycling merely because you though you would be better suited to it, but not because you enjoyed it more. If you still have time to be a pro, then by all means, specialize in whatever disciplines you feel suit you best. But if you're not that young (26 or 27+) anymore for a pro, then you ought to focus on what you ENJOY!

By the way, there's nothing about your stats that you listed that would indicate to me that you were better suited for the track than the road or vice-versa. You shouldn't worry that your HR might be ten or even twenty beats higher than another riders'. That doesn't mean that he's suffering less than you. Hincapie's HR is SUPER HIGH. He can motor along at 190 BPM, while other riders at the same HR might be dead! Those other people that you mention who were "cruising" at 175 or 170, might have been suffering just as much as you at 190.

- Maurizio

 

[Zircon]

I still think that the training program they outline is not bad to peak with. But hell no there's not halfway enough endurance in there to get you anywhere. I think the longest ride over 7 weeks is 3 hours easy? In the past I have done 6 hour slow rides no sweat.

You power output sounds pretty good...especially the threshhold one - I couldn't come close to that. The last time I did it I cracked at about 300w.

Yesterday I did another max power test 1100 watt for about 15-17 seconds. Keep in mind at the mo I am 150 pounds.

Also I leg press easily 800 pounds - yesterday I was doing 10 reps with a 1000 (after building up with five sets from 700 pounds).

This indicates to me that I am pretty powerful when it comes to sprinting (power to weight ratio). I have also had muscle biopsy done and it contained much higher fast twitch than average.

What do you think?

 

[Maurizio]

1000 lbs!!!

Holy $hit that's a ton. If you can do ten reps of that, and have got the fast twitch, then I would definately agree you have what if takes to kill in the sprint. Not only would that be good on the track, but also in a criterium, or a flat road race if you're agressive and good at asserting yourself in the closing of a race.

If you're that strong already at your weight, you ought to consider practicing your sprinting form on the bike to make sure that all of your strength gets translated into speed.

I was a pretty crappy sprinter at the begining of the year just because my sprinting form was bad. When I used to jump on the pedals the rear wheel would skip on the ground and bounce up! I practiced my form, and without getting any stronger, my sprint improved dramatically.

1100 watts average for 15-17 seconds seems pretty damn good to me, although I'm not really sure what kind of average wattage sprinters put out. I do know that the PEAK wattage of riders like Zabel and McEwen is about 1750, and Cipo is 2000, but I'm sure their averages are WAY below those figures.

What do I think? I think that considering what you say, you're a sprinter. Personally though, I would try and focus on flat road races, and see if you can have some teammates to help you out at the end. That's just my own preference though. I think track racing can get boring.

- Maurizio

 

[killerasp]

hey, i suggest www.bikeforums.com if you need more advice on bike related excercises.

 

[Zircon]

Just reread some of your other posts Maurizio.

I'm 25 and have done quite a bit of cycling in my life - although I am by no means a pro.

I'm just one of those ppl who likes to fight the odds and get the most out of it . ANd I'm having fun at the same time as well!

Yes I will agree with you that I MUCH prefer road to track, although I know I've got this "greyhound" streak in me - I just go absolutely insane and berserk when sprinting! It's a good way to get rid of frustrations.

By the way, have you heard of a South African cyclist Robert Hunter? He's a short stocky guy (1.7m 75 kg) and used to be a sprinter but he did TDF last year and did pretty well for his first time.

So maybe I shouldn't complain huh? I mean what's a crit or a 100km flat race compared to TDF?!?!


The other problem I have with measuring my power output is the bike/dynamos I use. They are at my local gym, and I am really not convinced with the calibration of them (somedays I pump 1000 watt easily - on another bike I can only get 800!). Somethin fishy here...

Do you have a racing cv on the net? WOuld be interesting to find out more about your cycling.

cheers

 

[Zircon]

Hey maurizio, got any answers?

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

I'm bumping this hoping that there are still some cyclist on the board.

Road season is over and I'm taking the MTB out on the weekend for a 20-25 mile ride (remember, I'm in MinneSNOWta).
What I want to do is to get myself ready for our local Ironman ride in April (108 miles) and generally fit for the next road season altogether.

I have a stationary trainer and a Lifecycle. What else can I do short of joining a fitness club or should I just bite the bullet?

 

[Road Demon]

training for track cycling

Ok, what do you want to know about training for road/ track cycling? To answer some of your questions...

Their is significant controversy in terms of weight training impact on increasing cycling performance at the cat3 level or higher for road cycling. For track cycling some weight training could be useful for the shorter events, I would surmise. I'm aware that many track riders lift year round. Most studies on performance enhancement had been done with relatively untrained college students, that taken in that context, I just think that the addition training volume due to the weight training has improved their cycling performance.

If you do lift, I agree with doing multi-joint multiple muscle groups exercises in periodization schedule such as: back squats, front squats, and stiff deadlifts. No leg curls, leg extensions, or calf raises...waste of time for cycling. In addition I would recommend a strong focus on core strength to maintain the ' rigid ' link and stabilize you pistions (legs). Yes, Weight training can prevent injury as strengthens the red (muscle) and white (tendons/ligaments) connective tissue that is normally neglected in the normal cycling movement, and allow the body to recuperate from some of the degenerative effects of the cycling motion.

In addition, 3-5 sets of 3-8 reps at 90% of a 1 RM (Rep max) would allow you to devolop max strength. Also you should look into some NSCA -CSCS certified individual to supervise you if you chose to get involved involved in power type lifts (moderate weight w/ high speed of movement) which could translate well into your track racing.

I generally prefer to train people with sports specific strength training, such as big gear accelerations starting at a slow speed for 10-15 second, over geared hill sprints, one legged pedaling etc. This allows for recruitment of the whole spectrum of the different types of muscle fiber form Slow Oxidative to Fast Oxidative glycolytic to Fast Glycolytic just like weight training in the gym does, but in a much more specific manner.

What is priority for any cycling related competion is to determine the power requirements of each event. Track cycling will require very high power outputs for short period of time. For 1 minute efforts somewhere between 8 (cat2) to 11 (world class) watts/ kg power outputs are required.

For my road cyclists low cadence/high force (aka CTS coined muscle tension intervals) and intervals at the end of long 3.5+ hour ride, will facilitate neuromuscular recuirtment patterns and the metabolic implications of dealing with muscle lactate levels, as power output at and above lactate threshold is critical for good preformance.

I disagree with Maurizio, that 25/26 is too old to do well in road cycling, as if you look at most endurance atheletes (cyclists, mtbs, road runners, triathletes) peak in the low to mid 30's. It takes roughly 5-10 years to realize one potential in an endurance sport.

I think that if someone has the dedication and willing to make the sacrifice, that it is possible for individual with a modest level of talent to be become a good domestic level pro. Now, I think the tour requires genetic mutants and good doctors...

Ever seen a Euro-Pro dropped from a Pro1/2 Crit, due to the bike handling requirements of a 100 Km Crit?

What sort of power measuring device are you using ? Powertap, SRM, Ergmo, or the less desirable polar unit for those number that you have posted. I have a powertap std and it works quite well.

Their are some good books out there to put you in the right direction for sure. I will try to suggest some titles that are more practical and easy to follow rather than too much science.

 

[Road Demon]

heart rate and high intensity training year round

Oh one key point that is a commom misconception, high intensity training (greater than 85% of max heart rate or power at to near 60 avg power output should be done year round if you are a competitive racer or fast club rider). Of course in the off season it should be used in a limited amount like a fine spice, but then like salt on french fries in the race season .

Heart rate is only relative to the rider...

Cardiac Output is what is important...

Cardiac output = stroke volume (the amount of blood ejected from the hearts left ventricle per beat) * Heart rate

Think a big 5.0 V8 w/ 5800 K redline compared to turbo'd 2.5 liter boxer engine with a 7000 K redline.

FYI: I can avg 195 for a 40 km TT...

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Thanks for a very thorough responce. I'm still researching using the information you provided.

I also came across this article br Chris Carmichael just posted on Roadcycling.com To Gym or Not to Gym? .