Got my first "I don't know" shutdown.

[Poise]

She was there to work out. Not get hit on. Women that wear headphones while working out generally don't want to get disturbed.

Not really, I see girls with headphones all the time staring and/or smiling at me. What you want to do is wait for an opening to help them or have them help you, then leave it at that because they'll probably open you later themselves if they like you. What you want to look at is non-verbal communication.

Dude, quit it. He was NOT shut down. Stop making it seem worse than it really is. It was just initial resistence. If she said, "No"...then yes...but she didn't reject him

Again, non-verbal communication. She doesn't have to scream, "NO!" and ask for security to remove you before you count it as a shutdown. The majority of flirting happens with body language. It's amazing how clueless some people are still after readings tons of pick-up methods.

Ask any sociologist or social psychologist, they will tell you that flirting starts with body language. I you're a good flirt, you should be able to tell a girl's interest before a single word even comes out of her mouth.

Here's a really good, simple run-down of it: http://www.menshealth.com/cda/artic...item=957b8e207e342110vgnvcm20000012281eac____

 

[DonJoseCantosie]

Body language, although definitely means a lot, doesn't dictate EVERYTHING. Some girls whom seem to not react positively via body language when i noticed them...but then when i went up to them...they LIGHTED UP quite a bit. I'm not joking and thought my eyes were playing tricks on me(During the period i actually started getting somewhere with approaches). Again, initial resistence and not all..be all rejection. Still as long as its not a no, u still don't know. Yes, sometimes a no is what it really takes. Its like a girl trying to leave somewhere, her body language says she wants to go but she's sticking there talking. Again, the body language says she wants to leave...but she hasn't. Why? Because she was being indecisive, thats all. If i had based on her wanting to leave and let her, i wouldn't had been able to meet up with her later. Rejection = no, not..."not interested body language, plus a neutral response" Its not that set in stone Poise.

 

[daygameguy]

Well in general all the body language and "wait to find an opportunity to open" tips are great.

But in this particular case, she was on the stepper doing her thing. There was a TV in front of her face, and all treadmills and steppers are against the glass wall. So they will have to look back to eye fvck someone.

When you are standing on the stepper, what other body language can you use except for opening her over the shoulder, which is what I did.

This is my thought:
Some girls will give you some room to recover from a bad opener. Some girls won't.

If your opinion opener is weird, and a girl repeats the question in a confused tone, then you can recover. But if she just says "I don't know" and turns away, then you don't have any time to recover. If you keep talking while she put her headphones back on and continued with the workout, you will lower your value for every unwelcome word that you say.

Overall, some lessons learnt, and even though direct is not my thing, sometimes direct is the better way.

But again, as I said, I use weird opinion openers all the time, they usually repeat the question if they find it weird or confusing, after which I recover and make them laugh.

 

[Poise]

Some girls whom seem to not react positively via body language when i noticed them...but then when i went up to them...they LIGHTED UP quite a bit.

So they were probably shy and not initially attracted to you. There's a lot of subconscious things going on that you don't notice either, like her pupils when she saw you, or her shoulders. The **** you probably read in whatever PUA book is really really basic. There's a lot of stuff going on with body language not mentioned there.

Its like a girl trying to leave somewhere, her body language says she wants to go but she's sticking there talking. Again, the body language says she wants to leave...but she hasn't. Why? Because she was being indecisive, thats all.

It means that she's in a rush. Her body language said she's trying to go somewhere - that's all it's saying. But she's still talking, which means the conversation isn't over. If her body language says she's leaving, but her head is facing towards you, she's talking, making eye contact - that's still positive body language. Read that article I linked before you discuss it.

Its not that set in stone Poise.

No scientific theory is "set in stone" or "100% proven." You can't prove 100% that gravity exists by definition of scientific theory, but we all know it does. So reading body language might not be 100% fool proof, you might meet a really great actress one day who can control her body language and not break into a smile or blush when she sees you. But it's still a hell of a lot better a gauge than the indiscriminate guessing people usually do, and beats the hell out of some the people here who probably wait for her to call the cops and file a restraining order.

Read this: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/find/books?irn=95273

But in this particular case, she was on the stepper doing her thing. There was a TV in front of her face, and all treadmills and steppers are against the glass wall. So they will have to look back to eye fvck someone.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying. Ask yourself, "What does her position say about her?" 1. Her body language is closed. 2. She's busy 3. She's distracted

Does that sound like she's ready to go into a 20 minute discussion with you about a date with your fake friend's fake roommate?

What you can see here is that she's going to be an incredibly tough approach, because everything about her body language says, "Not interested, busy." or at least "Not interested at the moment." Sure you can still approach with the 1% hope that this is all wrong, she'll spot you, and risk the 99% chance of getting rejected. But unless you're that 1% of good-looking don't hope for it.

Everyone else who's socially accumulated though, doesn't need a girl to scream "Get away from me!" to understand how an interaction is going.

 

[daygameguy]

What you can see here is that she's going to be an incredibly tough approach, because everything about her body language says, "Not interested, busy." or at least "Not interested at the moment." Sure you can still approach with the 1% hope that this is all wrong, she'll spot you, and risk the 99% chance of getting rejected. But unless you're that 1% of good-looking don't hope for it.

Everyone else who's socially accumulated though, doesn't need a girl to scream "Get away from me!" to understand how an interaction is going.

I knew she had closed body language. Anyone using any gym equipment will seem to have closed body language. You have to open them to see what you can get. Its better to stay positive in your head than negative.

But yes I do understand now why she behaved this way.

 

[Fontaine]

She was in my gym, on the stepper watching the mini TV with headphones on.

I walked in the gym, noticed her, went right next to her, and started using the stepper next to her.

I switched on the TV, and tapped her on her forearm, and looked at her, and said - "I need to ask you a quick question", she took headphones off, I said - "How long do think a guy should wait before dating a girl's roommate."

She said "I don't know" and put her headphones back on and started watching TV again.

I applaud your courage, you may as well have walked up to a girl in a library studying for final exams, interrupted her concentration, and asked the same question. Next time, target the ladies that are in between cycles of their workout and/or walking around taking a break.

 

[DonJoseCantosie]

^She'll let you know if she's hell bent on fully concentrating on her final exams...course if she looks heavily focused, i agree u should wait...but if she doesn't look so 100% into it...then why not?

 

[Duffdog]

I knew she had closed body language. Anyone using any gym equipment will seem to have closed body language. You have to open them to see what you can get. Its better to stay positive in your head than negative.

But yes I do understand now why she behaved this way.

Have you tried something easy, like asking a girl (who is athletic/toned) about workouts or nutrition or something like that? Maybe ask how many miles she runs or something along those lines. I think that an opener which has at least something to do with the setting would come across better. Its easier for me because I really don't know much about fitness and nutrition, so I don't have to pretend I am interested because I actually am.

 

[DonJoseCantosie]

So they were probably shy and not initially attracted to you. There's a lot of subconscious things going on that you don't notice either, like her pupils when she saw you, or her shoulders. The **** you probably read in whatever PUA book is really really basic. There's a lot of stuff going on with body language not mentioned there.

No...there's attraction, just that its not that much initially. Which is why its good to persist. Exactly...which is why we always won't see everything, hence not always going on based on body language and to keep going until u know in ur gut that she's not interested.

It means that she's in a rush. Her body language said she's trying to go somewhere - that's all it's saying. But she's still talking, which means the conversation isn't over. If her body language says she's leaving, but her head is facing towards you, she's talking, making eye contact - that's still positive body language. Read that article I linked before you discuss it.

If she was die hard in a rush, she'd keep walking and say sorry and keep going without stopping. Seriously if people are in super rushes, that desperation will kick in...even if its hard for them to say no.

No scientific theory is "set in stone" or "100% proven." You can't prove 100% that gravity exists by definition of scientific theory, but we all know it does. So reading body language might not be 100% fool proof, you might meet a really great actress one day who can control her body language and not break into a smile or blush when she sees you. But it's still a hell of a lot better a gauge than the indiscriminate guessing people usually do, and beats the hell out of some the people here who probably wait for her to call the cops and file a restraining order.

And its even better to still find out when talking to her for a minute to see if persisting and plowing will get farther. The restraining order bit? C'mon man...u have to have common sense atleast. As i've said before, if she says no and makes it clear, then there'd be no need for it.

Read this: http://www.slac.stanford.edu/spires/find/books?irn=95273

Ive looked up a ton of things on body language in the past and quite frankly, this sounds the same i've read.

Exactly, that's what I've been saying. Ask yourself, "What does her position say about her?" 1. Her body language is closed. 2. She's busy 3. She's distracted

Does that sound like she's ready to go into a 20 minute discussion with you about a date with your fake friend's fake roommate?

U would talk to her on a stepper for twenty minutes if ur not on one urself?

What you can see here is that she's going to be an incredibly tough approach, because everything about her body language says, "Not interested, busy." or at least "Not interested at the moment." Sure you can still approach with the 1% hope that this is all wrong, she'll spot you, and risk the 99% chance of getting rejected. But unless you're that 1% of good-looking don't hope for it.

99% chance i seriously doubt. But i do agree if she's super focused to wait as eventually that focus will die down till she seems less focused...but at the same time...if he feels in his gut...he should...why not...plus why even care for rejection? Its nothing we should try to prevent(Within reason)...its something we are willing to risk.

Everyone else who's socially accumulated though, doesn't need a girl to scream "Get away from me!" to understand how an interaction is going.

But alsodoesn't need to give up with just one neutral response if u can sense some indecisiveness on her part ;-)

 

[daygameguy]

Have you tried something easy, like asking a girl (who is athletic/toned) about workouts or nutrition or something like that? Maybe ask how many miles she runs or something along those lines. I think that an opener which has at least something to do with the setting would come across better. Its easier for me because I really don't know much about fitness and nutrition, so I don't have to pretend I am interested because I actually am.

That I haven't done. Its called a situation opener or a functional opener. Such openers are great, because they are socially obliged to respond. If you ask someone about time or date or something situational like that, they should respond. But they also expect you to get the fvck off after their reply, as there is nothing interesting about that opener. Nonetheless, you can jump on to another spontaneous thread of conversation and make things interesting after that.

Not in the gym, but in the sports field, while running with another running HB on my side, I have used :
"Hey do you know where I could get a good Frisbee around here?.. my friends and I are wanting to go play some Frisbee this Sunday"
OR
"DO you know what time the bookstore closes? In summer they used to close at 5, not sure if that has changed..."

Then they respond with their knowledge.

THEN, I can either jump on to an actual opinion opener, OR make C&F observation, Or neg her on something, its easy to jump threads after that cuz she has been opened comfortably, and has invested her knowledge into the conversation. I call it the PRE-OPENER as it sets a comfortable stage to launch my actual piece of conversation which is going to hook her in.

 

[Duffdog]

Daygame,

THEN, I can either jump on to an actual opinion opener, OR make C&F observation, Or neg her on something, its easy to jump threads after that cuz she has been opened comfortably, and has invested her knowledge into the conversation. I call it the PRE-OPENER as it sets a comfortable stage to launch my actual piece of conversation which is going to hook her in.

I kind of cringe when I read stuff like this. It seems like research material and not something that I would ever think about when I talk to a female. I prefer to make it simple, I look at a chic and think if there is anything that I want to know about her or something that caught my attention besides her azz. Then, I go talk to her because I wanted to know the answer. Thats it, thats all I got.

I wouldn't ever consider using a pre-rehearsed line or anything like that paragraph because its not me-- its a paragraph from a book! Does this line of thinking actually go through your head while your talking to a girl? As if a giant checklist in subtext is next to her and you are mentally checking things off? I would like to think that people wonder about other people and ask questions out of genuine interest, but it looks like this isn't the case.

 

[ready123]

I agree with you and the video.

I know there are better ways to open conversation. I know all that. I was still wanting to analyze this specific case, why would she say "I Don't Know" and shut me down.

Maybe it was a combination of not smiling low vibe reaction-seeking and bad opener.

The girl had an autopilot response to something in your behavior. If I had to guess, it would be the reaction seeking but who knows. She might just have been into her workout. That's the problem with trying to troubleshoot your game on just one girl

If you wanna try something different, try a situational opener that paces her reality. Look at where her attention is at and start from there. IE She's watching tv, look at what she's watching, make a funny comment about it, continue. It's more fun and spontaneous to open like this, and you avoid a lot of the problems of canned openers

 

[daygameguy]

Daygame,




I kind of cringe when I read stuff like this. It seems like research material and not something that I would ever think about when I talk to a female. I prefer to make it simple, I look at a chic and think if there is anything that I want to know about her or something that caught my attention besides her azz. Then, I go talk to her because I wanted to know the answer. Thats it, thats all I got.

I wouldn't ever consider using a pre-rehearsed line or anything like that paragraph because its not me-- its a paragraph from a book! Does this line of thinking actually go through your head while your talking to a girl? As if a giant checklist in subtext is next to her and you are mentally checking things off? I would like to think that people wonder about other people and ask questions out of genuine interest, but it looks like this isn't the case.

No. lol I actually don't think about it too much. But this is a discussion dedicated to my approach, so yeah I had to become a uber nerd and analyze every single bit in scientific detail.

But I would never think so much when its time to act.

 

[daygameguy]

The girl had an autopilot response to something in your behavior. If I had to guess, it would be the reaction seeking but who knows. She might just have been into her workout. That's the problem with trying to troubleshoot your game on just one girl

If you wanna try something different, try a situational opener that paces her reality. Look at where her attention is at and start from there. IE She's watching tv, look at what she's watching, make a funny comment about it, continue. It's more fun and spontaneous to open like this, and you avoid a lot of the problems of canned openers

That would have been much better. I agree.

 

[SharinganUser]

Is there really any need to go into such deep theory for something as simple as an approach? This is a problem I have with this site, the means is almost more important than the results. The results should dictate the means.

But more to the point. Direct approaching a woman at a gym while she is focused on her work out is not very effective. It'd be more effective bump into her at the snack bar or while she is resting.

So how do you meet women at the gym????

Here are some effective ways to meet women:

Sign up for classes like yoga, aerobic dance, or taebo. Those are usually filled with women.

Another great way to meet women is to play in some co-ed volleyball. Not only will you share a common interest, but you can show dominance at the same time. (assuming you are good at volleyball).

One more thing you can do is to become a certified instructor and get a job(pt or ft) at the gym.

And approaching her if she was more dolled up? From my experience....her getting seduced when she's not prepping up would've had her more intrigued EVEN more because she can still feel sexy wearing normal stuff. Its funny, one girl at a party after i was teasing her about something with her outfit in an insecure argumentive manner, she's like, "You wouldn't like how i look if i wasn't wearing this!" then i told her, "Bull**** ....the best girls are the ones who look good even when they don't have to prep themselves...and who says i wouldn't want to talk to u if u were just wearing sweats? I haven't u wear them yet so how could u be so sure? " Shes shocked of what i said.

So SharinganUser, if he was more to the point she could've responded better. BUT remember, he was rusty.

I understand what you are saying and I do agree with it to a point. However, in this case, women who get dolled up to go to the gym, are more receptive because they are there to socialize, not work out. A woman who is in sweats, doesn't want to be disturbed while she is working out. If you want a better chance with her, you should wait until she is either changing machines or resting. She'll be to tired to run away atleast .

Your example is moot because a party is a different setting then a gym. Also You also already had the girls attention, while the OP did not. Not to mention that the girl you were talking to WAS dolled up and receptive to you which only proves my point. Being direct doesn't mean you should ignore the timing of your approach.


I don't want to debate this any further because I don't think this is a topic worthy of much discussion (no offense OP). Approaching women is easy, like tying a shoe lace. Sure we could argue over thread counts, the physics of lace tying and best length for a lace. But what would be the point? Just tie your laces so you don't trip when you approach a woman!