Gas in the U.S.

[bigjohnson]

...... The government also should fine companies that do not get their cars up to the 50 mpg before a certain date.

I suppose this is what happens when an econ major tries to solve an engineering problem. Look at the theoretical efficiency of a heat engine and then you will start to understand. It will take a HUGE change in the way we power cars to gain much more, and by huge I mean say goodbye to internal combustion, pistons and such .... or everyone has to ride a moped.

 

[ketostix]

sources please!!!

If a company really wanted to destroy the market, all it would have to do is go like you are saying.

Is there a pipeline or oil drilling equipment up there? If there is no pipeline, then it is impossible to get that oil making it impossible to get for a couple of years.

All information that I have seen is that supply is going down and will continue to go down if we have hit peak oil.

comic_relief

Why don't you source all the silly things you say? I don't have the time to source everything I say or need to because what I'm saying is basically common sense anyway. Read what Rhoto posted. I can see debating with you is like debating with Al Gore about climate. You have all these preconcieved liberal ideas.

The point is oil isn't in shortage because there's not enough oil to be harvested, but instead because the industry doesn't want to supply it and sell it at market value. Have you ever had a problem finding petroleum products to buy? Oil would be under $20 a barrel but the industry wants it higher and the inelastic market can't force it down.

 

[ketostix]

Getting it out will be quite a challenge. Alberta's had huge labour shortages for years now slowing down new projects.

Not to mention the environmental damage it's doing. Getting oil from oil sands basically means strip mining huge plots of land, then boiling the soil, dumping out all the crap, and keeping the oil. And you guys are worried about drilling in Alaska.

Well there's no labor shortage really. People will come from all over the world to work the oil feild if you pay them. It's true that not all the oil is in liquid state but billions of barrels of it are. The point is the oil that isn't in liquid state can be produce for a few dollars more per barrel but there's still plenty of cheaper to process oil to be found for now.

 

[ketostix]

I suppose this is what happens when an econ major tries to solve an engineering problem. Look at the theoretical efficiency of a heat engine and then you will start to understand. It will take a HUGE change in the way we power cars to gain much more, and by huge I mean say goodbye to internal combustion, pistons and such .... or everyone has to ride a moped.

I know it irks me when people say "why don't they make cars more fuel efficient". Well it's not possible to make the internal combustion engine much more efficient. Then they say "well just develop new technology" and they don't mention that means way more costs and shifted pollution to manufacturing other technologies. And all for what? To solve mostly for now imaginary problems, like "oil shortages", "pollution" and "global warming". If everyone started riding bikes and/or horses these same jack ass would find new problems to complain about lol.

 

[Rhoto]

Getting it out will be quite a challenge. Alberta's had huge labour shortages for years now slowing down new projects.

Not to mention the environmental damage it's doing. Getting oil from oil sands basically means strip mining huge plots of land, then boiling the soil, dumping out all the crap, and keeping the oil. And you guys are worried about drilling in Alaska.

Labor won't be a problem, all an oil company has to do is post a "Help Wanted" sign in South East Asia, watch how many people line up. Or just import the work force from south of the border.

Environmental damage is inevitable and unfortunately a reality that has to be accepted. Of course we want to minimize the net impact and hopefully break even (or close to as possible) in the energy equation, but we have to deal with it. Unless we begin to use nuclear power....:cheer:

 

[SmoothTalker]

Well then politics comes into play. I think a lot of Canadians currently making big bucks in the oil fields wouldn't be too happy if we were swamped with cheap foreign labour.

And I was just saying that tar sands are one of the dirtiest sources of oil. At current prices the extra cost isn't' much of an issue really, but drilling a hole and sticking an oil well on top of it is a lot nicer on the environment than what has to be done for most of the Alberta oil.

Nuclear would actually be pretty nice.

 

[Rhoto]

94 MPG??

Very interesting.

 

[Latinoman]

cars do not have to look like that. If we invested manpower and intelligence into fixing this problem. I am almost positive that we would be able to make them look like nice cars.


comic_relief

You stated early that the main goal of a company is to make $$$.

Perhaps designing those kind of vehicles is not going to make the profits ($$$) the automotive companies are expecting.

After all...they should not be designing vehicles to "help" the American public. They should design them to make $$$. Correct?

The point I am trying to make is that you argue one point well and then take away from that argument by totally contradicting yourself in another point.

 

[Latinoman]

Holy **** how big is the gas tank on that thing??

Gas in Canada is more expensive but I still spend $65 per tank or maybe just a bit higher, for 55 liters. I'm guessing it runs on premium?

But you have a considerably cheaper health system (which I am sure you are paying with your gasoline tax). Your manufactoring costs are considerably cheaper because you have lot of domestic natural gas. I don't think the cost of food is as high in Canada. And I doubt jet fuel is a big issue for your domestic flights (as you don't have as many destinations as the U.S. domestic flights).

The thing is that our economy was not designed to sustain a certain amount of gasoline/jet fuel/diesel prices.

 

[Latinoman]

I suppose this is what happens when an econ major tries to solve an engineering problem. Look at the theoretical efficiency of a heat engine and then you will start to understand. It will take a HUGE change in the way we power cars to gain much more, and by huge I mean say goodbye to internal combustion, pistons and such .... or everyone has to ride a moped.

Exactly. Lot of people talk out of their azzes.

Lot of non-engineers do not understand that

1- technical feasibility studies are done to determine if it can even be done

2- economical feasibility studies are done (as companies MUST make $$$)

3- social feasibility studies are done to determine acceptance from several groups (as the public/management/government/etc has to buy in)

If anyone of those fail...the likelihood of something been designed are very low...or zero.

 

[Latinoman]

Well there's no labor shortage really. People will come from all over the world to work the oil feild if you pay them. It's true that not all the oil is in liquid state but billions of barrels of it are. The point is the oil that isn't in liquid state can be produce for a few dollars more per barrel but there's still plenty of cheaper to process oil to be found for now.

Actually...it takes certain specialize skills to work the oil industry. A big issue in America is that we are not producing enough engineers and in 20 or so years, we might have to rely on foreign intellectual service for this.

Oilsands processing is not cheap. It is in fact going to be based more on technology advances. Currently, the techonology out there allows for a certain way to mine or do the in-situ process of the bitumen (sp?). And it only allows for a certain way of processing.

What a LOT of people don't understand is that currently it takes massive amount of natural gas for the oil sands process. Canada is our biggest exporter of natural gas. In the future, lot of that Canadian natural gas, instead of being sent to the U.S., is going to remain back in Canada for the oilsand processing.

Natural gas prices is currently another HUGE issue in the U.S. We just don't complain enough, because we don't pump natural gas into our tanks (or because most of us don't work in manufacturing jobs). But the fact is...the reason a lot of manufacturing is coming from China is because our manufacturing companies cannot sustain the prices of natural gas (which is required for process and feedstock). The future power plants in America will rely on natural gas as it is a cleaner and enviromentaly friendly source of energy. That's why you see lot of natural gas coming via pipeline from Canada or in liquified form (LNG) from places such as Trinidad.

Energy (especially oil and natural gas stuff) is not an easy field to understand. Some people understand the technical aspects, but don't understand the policy or economical or market aspects. Not even the globalize aspects of the field.

 

[Latinoman]

Labor won't be a problem, all an oil company has to do is post a "Help Wanted" sign in South East Asia, watch how many people line up.

Not everybody is an engineer or geologist or a journeyman that understand the technical aspects of exploration, transportation, production. It is a LOT more than just driving around or moving equipment. If this was the case, we wouldn't be having illegal immigrants crossing the border and working farm-underpaid-jobs.

Instead, they would be working overseas, making all that $$$ as this is a field that pays very well...even to blue collar workers.

But...it is a field that requires SKILLS.

 

[Rhoto]

Not everybody is an engineer or geologist or a journeyman that understand the technical aspects of exploration, transportation, production. It is a LOT more than just driving around or moving equipment. If this was the case, we wouldn't be having illegal immigrants crossing the border and working farm-underpaid-jobs.

Instead, they would be working overseas, making all that $$$ as this is a field that pays very well...even to blue collar workers.

But...it is a field that requires SKILLS.

Yes, I never said that information intensive/sensitive jobs would go to whoever could fill out the application. But that doesn't mean there aren't qualified geologists, engineers and contractors who would be able to do what is currently being done, just cheaper.

However, I don't think this is a thing that will happen anytime soon.

 

[comic_relief]

You stated early that the main goal of a company is to make $$$.

Perhaps designing those kind of vehicles is not going to make the profits ($$$) the automotive companies are expecting.

After all...they should not be designing vehicles to "help" the American public. They should design them to make $$$. Correct?

The point I am trying to make is that you argue one point well and then take away from that argument by totally contradicting yourself in another point.

I actually believe that I covered that by passing large tax breaks to offset the costs of the production for these cars for companies that can get cars above 50 mpg (Principle Three "Arouse in the other person an eager want" in "the fundamentals in Handling People" from How to Win Friends and Influence People).

as to the number of mpg, let us look at that new Prius with 94 mpg. They are hybrid cars, but still manage to totally kick ass at the pump. If one car company can do it, then why can't all cars manage it?

As to the internal combustion engine, if something is not working then don't continue with it. Disregard it and move on to a better technology.

comic_relief

 

[SmoothTalker]

But you have a considerably cheaper health system (which I am sure you are paying with your gasoline tax). Your manufacturing costs are considerably cheaper because you have lot of domestic natural gas. I don't think the cost of food is as high in Canada. And I doubt jet fuel is a big issue for your domestic flights (as you don't have as many destinations as the U.S. domestic flights).

The thing is that our economy was not designed to sustain a certain amount of gasoline/jet fuel/diesel prices.

I really have to disagree here Latinoman. For starters as I've said before, our health care system has many problems, covers less and less care every year, and we pay insane taxes on it. What's the income tax rate you paid last year? When you start making decent money it's literally about 50% here. 15% sales tax (on top of the price of every good that is already higher than in the US), gas taxes, and on top of that, everyone had to pay a $1000 'health surcharge'. I'm pretty sure we could have been insured for half the price.

Again, from what I have seen your food is cheaper. Maybe not for certain things we grow here, but we import a lot of fruits and other products that won't grow in our climate, and yes the fuel costs of trucking it from Florida to here are factored in.

Our manufacturing costs are not that low, hence why so many companies here have gone under now that the dollar is higher. They simply can't compete without a 40% cost advantage due to a lower dollar.

As for jet fuel, again I wouldn't be surprised if per capita we fly as much or more miles. Keep in mind Canada is a bigger country geographically, roads are less developed than in the US, and many important cities are just too far apart to reasonably drive. Quebec City to Vancouver is 5,154 km, you better believe we'd fly. While most of your cities are along the coasts, almost all of ours are along the US boarder. But it's a very very long boarder.


One thing we do have in our advantage is because cars cost more here, we tend to buy smaller ones. You guys buy Accords and Camry's, while our best sellers are Civics and Corollas, and SUV's are less common. This helps keep energy costs down a bit.

However in the end while I agree that your economy is not prepared for such high energy prices, it is simply not the case that that's due to other countries having some magical advantages. I guess we could just say you guys have been spoiled by cheap energy.

 

[comic_relief]

One thing we do have in our advantage is because cars cost more here, we tend to buy smaller ones. You guys buy Accords and Camry's, while our best sellers are Civics and Corollas, and SUV's are less common. This helps keep energy costs down a bit.

However in the end while I agree that your economy is not prepared for such high energy prices, it is simply not the case that that's due to other countries having some magical advantages. I guess we could just say you guys have been spoiled by cheap energy.

I REALLY want either a civic or a Prius (most likely a Prius).

I have no clue why my girlfriend wants to keep her 17 mpg Jeep Cherokee with gas prices the way that they are.

I agree with Smoothtalker, we have been spoiled by he cheap prices. It is now time to do something.

comic_relief

 

[Rhoto]

I actually believe that I covered that by passing large tax breaks

And who pray tell is going to offset the loss of revenues? Corporations pay much more in taxes than any group of consumers could dream of.

as to the number of mpg, let us look at that new Prius with 94 mpg. They are hybrid cars, but still manage to totally kick ass at the pump. If one car company can do it, then why can't all cars manage it?

Actually the Prius will only achieve advertised gas milage when driven like a grandmother. Considering every one is in a rush, anything about 50mpg isn't a realistic number. And one must consider the new CAFE standards. And don’t get me started on the environmental costs of hybrids.

As to the internal combustion engine, if something is not working then don't continue with it. Disregard it and move on to a better technology.

You are aware that the average cost associated with designing and creating a new car model is roughly $1,000,000,000. Give or take of course, but it's very easy to say "make something better" when you're not. You really think that auto makers are sitting on their asses saying...hm, maybe we should switch? They're investing everything they can into creating more efficient autos, but with out a readily available substitute energy source, they’re **** out of luck.

 

[Latinoman]

. But that doesn't mean there aren't qualified geologists, engineers and contractors who would be able to do what is currently being done, just cheaper.

Engineers have specialties. Even engineering fields such as "mechanical engineers" have specialties. You cannot transfer from the automovite industry into the oil exploration industry and expected to bring the same knowledge.

 

[Latinoman]

I actually believe that I covered that by passing large tax breaks to offset the costs of the production for these cars for companies that can get cars above 50 mpg (Principle Three "Arouse in the other person an eager want" in "the fundamentals in Handling People" from How to Win Friends and Influence People).

as to the number of mpg, let us look at that new Prius with 94 mpg. They are hybrid cars, but still manage to totally kick ass at the pump. If one car company can do it, then why can't all cars manage it?

As to the internal combustion engine, if something is not working then don't continue with it. Disregard it and move on to a better technology.

comic_relief

Hybrids might make sense TODAY. But they did not make sense (economically speaking) 5 or even 2 years ago.

Tax breaks might NOT incentive enough. This is a BILLION DOLLARS industry.

 

[Latinoman]

I REALLY want either a civic or a Prius (most likely a Prius).

I have no clue why my girlfriend wants to keep her 17 mpg Jeep Cherokee with gas prices the way that they are.

I agree with Smoothtalker, we have been spoiled by he cheap prices. It is now time to do something.

comic_relief

Most people in the U.S. work in farms and similar blue collar jobs. Trucks tend to be the vehicle of choice due to NECESSITY.