Further On Up the Road

[Tictac]

I've been seeing this woman for about 6 months. I've dated and had enough other women up to and during the time I've been with her. And, thanks to what I've learned here, its gone well. I was running upwards of 4 women as recently as last month. But 'plate spinning' seems like a lot of work for the payback.

This woman is terrific all around - to look at, talk to, just be with. And she's an amazing sex partner. All in all, she qualifies on every level.

My time is limited. I am raising my 3 kids (17, 15, 12) and am a solo consultant with a travel schedule that keeps me on the move. She's busy too with both domestic and international travel. She's got older children. So getting together is already difficult.

Both our lives are busy and complicated. But we 'get' each other. We're both divorced, she longer than me. After she separated, she was with a guy that treated her as a back door girl. She's burned enough from that and her marriage to not understand why I treat her well. Today, she needed a ride to the airport. I took her. I'd do this for many of my friends.

I'm not being a 'nice guy', I'm being my definition of a good man. But I get the impression that I'm in deeper than she is. I'd like to back up slightly but keep her close. Other than spinning plates (I'm not interested enough to go back to it), how do I manage this?

I've read 'the test that everyone fails' a great post. I think I'm there. But I'd like to pass this one with her. As we've tested each other over time, she makes and exceeds the grade with me. And she admits that she wants to be with me and that she has feelings for me. Maybe that should be enough.

I'm in no hurry to 'go exclusive'. I just don't have much interest in spending the little time I have chasing my tail.

Advice and perspective is what I've come to expect here. How do I draw her further into my world? I know that I'm the prize. She sees that too. Still, I'd like to hook her more thoroughly without lapsing into an AFC.

Your thoughts?

Tictac

 

[jophil28]

I'm being my definition of a good man. But I get the impression that I'm in deeper than she is.


Your thoughts?

Tictac

What's going on here, TicTac ? Why do you believe that you are more invested than she is?
Could your "frame management" stand a little improvement perhaps?
IS she demonstating any signs of complacency ?

Are you drifting into this mindset, " I plan to 'please' her into seeing what a great guy I am ." ?

 

[Tictac]

If you found a need to post here about her bewildering behavior, listen up...She is either a Cluster B nut, or she is creating confusion to distance herself from you. Either way, pull Eject now!

Jophil,

Incisive as always. Thanks!

I don't see or feel complacency in her. But confusion, created or real, is there. So time to pull back.

Tictac

 

[jophil28]

Jophil,

Incisive as always. Thanks!

I don't see or feel complacency in her. But confusion, created or real, is there. So time to pull back.

Tictac

The confusion to which I referred is the kind that some women deliberately create to insert some distance between you..they feel overwhelmed by the demands of an adult relationship (Cluster B girls do this. BPD's do it habitually )
Some women start acting incongruently to keep you in a state of disequilibrium. IT gives them a perverted sense of power and control..
The question is this- has her behavior changed since you have known her ?
Was she consistent and reliable in the first two months when her IL was peaked ? Has she become less predictable or less reliable? Has her behavior degenerated?
How about a couple examples so that we know what we are dealing with ?

BTW, there is a possibility that the confusion you feel is just a normal part of getting to know someone who operates with a different SOP to you.

 

[jophil28]

And she admits that she wants to be with me and that she has feelings for me. Maybe that should be enough.

Tictac

Perhaps it would "be enough" if her actions are congruent with those sentiments of her's. Just be mindful that women (especially those of her age) are skilled at using words to carve impressions in men .
However, a skilled man looks at their behavior patterns for consistency with words, and also with recent past behavior.

 

[guru1000]

But I get the impression that I'm in deeper than she is.

She senses it as well which means the frame is slightly compromised.

It is time to take control of the frame. You need to be in the position where both of you KNOW and UNDERSTAND the context. After six months of casual dating, the correct frame SHOULD already be planted. As you go further into a relationship, it becomes increasingly difficult to establish what should already be in place.

I would not advise to overtly distance yourself as she may agree to such an arrangement assuming she has the reigns (frame). However, do not reward her with your attention and thoughts until it is unequivocally understood she is emotionally invested deeper than you. Give her the gift of missing you (unintentionally) through your busy lifestyle.

Your intent and grab at the reigns should be overtly disclosed. This is done through overt boundaries that must be disclosed so there is no confusion as to what is acceptable. More importantly is the understanding that not respecting these boundaries is a deal breaker and you WILL walk away.

Provide the understanding, you APPRECIATE but don't NEED her.

Focus your thoughts and energies into your passions and it will only be a matter of time before the correct context is secured.

 

[Tictac]

BTW, there is a possibility that the confusion you feel is just a normal part of getting to know someone who operates with a different SOP to you.

Jophil,

This is the most likely. I have not been in this position for a couple of decades.

As for consistency and (apparently increasing) attention to me measured via behavior, I've nothing to worry over. Its funny, usually when words and deeds diverge it is words that try to cover what actions do not.

She is clearly chasing me - she comes here (we live @ 40 minutes apart) on my schedule, stays here when she can and she's by my side or in my bed when we're together. She calls and is clearly dismayed (not angry) if I'm too busy to pick up or talk long. We have a great time together or on the phone. That's all good. So deeds say 'Yes' while (recently) words say 'I'm scared'. So her behavior has not changed other than to the positive for me. Its her words. Will deeds follow words? Who knows?

You asked for an example. I took her to the airport for her two-day business trip. I get an email after she's in her hotel -

​

"...there are many sexy and beautiful women in your circle. Just let me know if one catches your eye. I want you to be happy and hope that I can help you be happy. But I need to tell you that after what 'X' has done, I am a messed up lady. Just promise that if you'll tell me if you decide that you don't want to see me anymore...you are really beginning to scare me".

WTF! This message makes her sound like an insecure ninny. She's actually quite strong. She does C&F as well as me and she's confident (life history, words, deeds, body laguage) in public and in private. She does know that I've seen other women.

Context: She's told me that she's never going to remarry (fine by me) and that we need to take things as they come and with patience (WAY fine by me). Then she writes the above? Its out of character (from what I can tell after 6 months).

Bottom line: I like what I see but not necessarily what I hear (deeds vs. words). The reversal is making me wonder. But she qualifies on so many other levels I don't want to next her for having a rough patch.

She's no drama queen. I'm wondering how much the last guy messed up her head. She's wondering if I'm real (I'm as real as they get - I'm out of time for head games and bull****). I'm no 'nice guy' (he died as my divorce unfolded).

Does this help you see where I am?

Tictac

 

[Tictac]

It is time to take control of the frame. You need to be in the position where both of you KNOW and UNDERSTAND the context. After six months of casual dating, the correct frame SHOULD already be planted. As you go further into a relationship, it becomes increasingly difficult to establish what should already be in place.

I would not advise to overtly distance yourself as she may agree to such an arrangement assuming she has the reigns (frame). However, do not reward her with your attention and thoughts until it is unequivocally understood she is emotionally invested deeper than you. Give her the gift of missing you (unintentionally) through your busy lifestyle.

Your intent and grab at the reigns should be overtly disclosed. This is done through overt boundaries that must be disclosed so there is no confusion as to what is acceptable. More importantly is the understanding that not respecting these boundaries is a deal breaker and you WILL walk away.

Provide the understanding, you APPRECIATE but don't NEED her.

Focus your thoughts and energies into your passions and it will only be a matter of time before the correct context is secured.

Guru1000,

This is among the best advice I've ever seen here. Guys like you and Jophil amaze me.

I had not considered the tacit 'gift of missing you' idea combined with an overt taking charge and setting frame, including disclosed boundaries. That's great LIFE advice not just Don Juan guy-girl stuff.

I do appreciate but do not need her. And I learned from you over the Summer that the ability and willingness to walk away is the only way to engage in a relationship. That's already gospel for me. I will get that across more clearly now for your observation.

I could stand a little more on the focusing 'thoughts and energies into my passions' though. I've understood for a long time that context is everything. Any further thoughts there?

Tictac

 

[Tictac]

Are you drifting into this mindset, " I plan to 'please' her into seeing what a great guy I am ." ?

Jophil,

I let this slip earlier. If I was doing this, it was not concious or deliberate. With your gem here as a wake up call, I will make sure that she's working to see me as the prize and that its on her to please me.

Best,
Tictac

 

[jophil28]

. So deeds say 'Yes' while (recently) words say 'I'm scared'. So her behavior has not changed other than to the positive for me. Its her words. Will deeds follow words? Who knows?

You asked for an example. I took her to the airport for her two-day business trip. I get an email after she's in her hotel -

​

"...there are many sexy and beautiful women in your circle. Just let me know if one catches your eye. I want you to be happy and hope that I can help you be happy. But I need to tell you that after what 'X' has done, I am a messed up lady. Just promise that if you'll tell me if you decide that you don't want to see me anymore...you are really beginning to scare me".

WTF! This message makes her sound like an insecure ninny. She's actually quite strong.
Tictac

THis is a good example of how an otherwise 'strong and capable ' woman can still feel and express doubts and anxieties which sound more like a ditzy teenager.

TT, she is still haunted by the ghost of her past relationships and the pain that she felt.
THis is her baggage my man, just ole fashioned baggage.

Her email was a cry for reassurance from you and she was seeking a guarantee that you will not inflict the same pain on her as her last disaster..

The best response to that is a cool calm one . " We will be fine...just fine." Say no more lest you become drawn into the murk of her demons.

We men are not obligated to 'fix' things with women that we did not cause.

 

[Tictac]

This is her baggage my man, just ole fashioned baggage.

Her email was a cry for reassurance from you and she was seeking a guarantee that you will not inflict the same pain on her as her last disaster..

The best response to that is a cool calm one. " We will be fine...just fine." Say no more lest you become drawn into the murk of her demons.

We men are not obligated to 'fix' things with women that we did not cause.

Jophil,

As it is written, so it will be done.

I've got all I can handle with my own demons. They're some bad boys.

I think she's okay. Perhaps just another (subconcious) test? I'll pass this one and see if her past overcomes her common sense and taste for adventure and a future worth having.

Thanks for your (very advanced)perspective,
Tictac

 

[jophil28]

Jophil,

As it is written, so it will be done.

I've got all I can handle with my own demons. They're some bad boys.

I think she's okay. Perhaps just another (subconcious) test? I'll pass this one and see if her past overcomes her common sense and taste for adventure and a future worth having.

Thanks for your (very advanced)perspective,
Tictac

Her email could indeed be seen as a test - a test of your devotion and your future fidelity.
The very best gift that you could give such an insecure woman is to be congruent, consistent, committed to your career and your independent life outside of your relationship with her, while allowing her increasing access to you as she earns it by her compliant behavior.
She needs to see and feel "the rock" that is TicTac.

The idea ( alluded to by Guru) is to create and maintain a powerful, independent life ,and lifestyle, which provides for your needs and which is magnetically attractive to women.