Friendzone is bad? oh please

[JdelaSilviera]

Assuming most here, want a decent girlfriend, although this is also true for flings and for those who dismiss friendship as very powerful way to build romantic interest (even if in the long run):

Recently I just had 3 new couples on my social group, between people who know each other for centuries.
Most couples I know of (or even couples I don´t know), start with people being friends, and spending a lot of time together.

But the community insists, that the friendzone is bad on what basis?

A friend is a friend, don´t try to remake the definiton, to match your theories.

This notion that the friendzone is bad, comes from anecdotal evidence, where people remember a few times they were rejected by a female friend.
But then, how can you say other methods are better, when the % of success in bars/clubs or with people you don´t know that well is terribly low, now matter how good looking you are. The time investment is higher on a friendship of course, but you have always something to gain.

The logic being used : you were rejected 20 girls in a row, cold approaching, or hitting of girls you barely know, being all player and sexual/teasing, but the community keeps telling you that´s the way to go pall, cause it´s a numbers game.
You get rejected by a girl friend a few times, you are an idiot, cause you were being friends with her.

Reallity shows that most people get their LTRs with friends.

The truth is, you shouldn´t be a *****. Whatever method you use, act confidently and manly.
Even Pook, tells you need to have patience, that´s why I get the betterofsingle theory , of being friends with hotties, wich worked for me a few times.

 

[PDubb75]

I agree with you, but I think the argument about the friendzone has a bit more to it. It isn't simply that "being friends with a girl is bad, and you will never break out of the friendzone".

It has more to do with an AFC playing his cards so wrong that the girl will only allow a friendship at that point.

These two scenarios are very different types of "friendzones":

1) Girl enters into your social circle. You guys go out in a group a lot and have a good time. You develop a friendship with her. At some point you may make a move, and she very well could be interested,too. This could probably prove to be a better % success than cold approaching, as she may love your personality, since she has had a chance to get to know you as friends.

2) You meet a girl and try to game her (aggressively or not) and she simply isn't interested. Being an AFC, you don't get that signal soon enough and keep pursuing. She senses this and puts her "LJBF" guard up on you, and your chance is nearly dead in the water.

Scenario #2 is (or should be) the "friendzone" that is looked at so negatively on this forum. It isn't the fact of being someone's friend, it's the fact of only being someone's friend.

 

[Iceberg]

Some things in your post may have went over my head. So let me know if I'm off target in my understanding of you...

I think engaging in a friendship with a woman for the purpose of being friends is perfectly fine. The problem is when guys buy her flowers (as a friend), listen to her sob stories (as a friend), and pays for her dinners (as a friend) when the guy's real intention is sexual or romantic.

The % of success in bars is low, but the numbers are higher. Which is why I tend to recommend developing confidence, and hitting the town in your social environment for the pursuit of women. You'll get shot down more, you'll get more flakes, but you'll also have more success...at very least because the numbers alone.

Now, of course you could do BOTH. You could go out with your boys, hit on chicks, get numbers, AND hang out with your female friends, keeping them close just in case of future romantic interest. But take a look at some of the new guys on here, and tell me that you think they can handle that. Most of these guys put all their chips into one girl, dreaming of marriage, skipping thru flower fields, and bringing her home to mom before they even kiss the girl

Guys like you and I could handle the concept of being a female's friend, and going out and pursuing other women. Because we're numb to the highs and lows of dating. But if you were new to the concepts of this site, I'd probably tell you to ditch your friendzone girl, build yourself into a better man, and go meet new girls. Because once you meet new girls, the old (friend zone) girls will seem less intimidating.

I think telling a new site member that he can get his oneitis chick while still being her friend will give the new member an excuse for not making a more aggressive move. So, that's why I avoid it.

 

[JdelaSilviera]

I agree with you Pdubb75, that´s why I think that the second case, should simply be called the rejection zone. Being rejected by a friend, for any aspect, is the same with any other girl.
Although with a friend, and of course I don´t recommend keeping the same degree of commitment, if you step aside, and keep some contact, and if she sees you with other women, your chances will increase later.

But this was just about, the old preaching that you shouldn´t be friends with a girl, if you intend to fvck, date, or having a LTR with her.

 

[JdelaSilviera]

Some things in your post may have went over my head. So let me know if I'm off target in my understanding of you...

I think engaging in a friendship with a woman for the purpose of being friends is perfectly fine. The problem is when guys buy her flowers (as a friend), listen to her sob stories (as a friend), and pays for her dinners (as a friend) when the guy's real intention is sexual or romantic.

The % of success in bars is low, but the numbers are higher. Which is why I tend to recommend developing confidence, and hitting the town in your social environment for the pursuit of women. You'll get shot down more, you'll get more flakes, but you'll also have more success...at very least because the numbers alone.

Now, of course you could do BOTH. You could go out with your boys, hit on chicks, get numbers, AND hang out with your female friends, keeping them close just in case of future romantic interest. But take a look at some of the new guys on here, and tell me that you think they can handle that. Most of these guys put all their chips into one girl, dreaming of marriage, skipping thru flower fields, and bringing her home to mom before they even kiss the girl

Guys like you and I could handle the concept of being a female's friend, and going out and pursuing other women. Because we're numb to the highs and lows of dating. But if you were new to the concepts of this site, I'd probably tell you to ditch your friendzone girl, build yourself into a better man, and go meet new girls. Because once you meet new girls, the old (friend zone) girls will seem less intimidating.

I think telling a new site member that he can get his oneitis chick while still being her friend will give the new member an excuse for not making a more aggressive move. So, that's why I avoid it.

Also agree with you totally. This thread was ment to the people who totally dismiss friendships as a way to romantic interest.

When you want to take things to the next level, you should make it clear. Not with romantic words of course, but with some of the game you would do to a cold approach.

The truth is, many times people fall in love, when they know each other so well, they feel a very strong connection.

But being a friend, and acting as a friend (no flowers, compliments, etc.), even if you have other intentions for a little while, is very good specially with difficult girls.

For instance, I used this technique several times, and I recall a time I did this to an HB9, because I felt that with my 7ish looks, I wouldn´t had a chance if I showed my interest too early. I knew I would be rejected, and soon enough my calls and texts would be unanswered, our coffees would be very rare etc.
So I was her friend, and then I would stop giving her attention for a while, (wich would drive her nuts to the point of sending me texts at 3 am), I would let her know I had other girls hitting on me, making her jealous etc.. She also had a high view of me after knowing me well. She then started being crazy about me, and I blew her off cause she became too much clingy...

I couldn´t make her love me, If I had been just another horny guy, that tried to get into her pants as soon he met her.. I did a kind of game that you can only use, when you are friends and spend some time together.

And sure, use also cold approach.

 

[st_99]

I think what the OP is saying is you may want to get with a girl that you may see fairly often but you can approach from genuine, not in a hurry to fck her, friend angle, get her gaurd down, let her feel comfortable with you THEN start mixing in some sexual vibes and this could lead to success. I would agree with this, its the slow and steady route and its fine.

 

[5string]

ermmm....don't know if I agree here.

I have had, and do have female "friends". In my case, I have always viewed them in the context of "would I, or would I not like to have sex with her"? I size em' up sexually.

In other words at some point, I ALWAYS have looked at them as a potential bed partner. I'll bet every guy on here does, and has done the same exact thing.

We naturally do this as men. Am I wrong?

 

[Warrior74]

The stupidity on this board is astounding. Friendzone is simple. You don't want to be her friend, you are FORCED to because she will not put you on the dating ladder. Now how you got there and why you were forced to, well its probably because you lacked the proper game to pull her.

As for your BS statistic OP about most people in LTRs being friends. Who the hell is trying to be in an LTR?

Friendzone is usually girls you don't know, you try to holler at and fail and keep hanging around when you should be moving the hell on. Girls you are friends with and have known forever aren't friendzone. They are friends. And its actually easier to hook up with a chic who is a friend because she knows and trust you.

The friendzone comes from a place of frustration. Friendship does not. There is a difference you failed to realize it.

As for female friends I've had a few, especially a few hot ones who introduced me to tons of targets. But those female friends are just that. Friends. I'm not secretly pining away for them whilst being completely shut down by them.

 

[JdelaSilviera]

The stupidity is astounding and beginning by you Warrior74, who apparently still has problems with the ladies after 4000+ posts.

Friendzone, is whatever the fvck I want it to be, and since everyone makes up their own definitions, I wrote the text in a pretty clear way, to show wich cases I was adressing.

The adressed case, was wen the the community says you should not be her friend, and that you should show sexual interest or kino from the very beginning, or you are dead. That´s totally false.

Of course there is that friendzone, that is when you are rejected, but obviously it wasn´t about that einstein...

 

[Warrior74]

The stupidity is astounding and beginning by you Warrior74, who apparently still has problems with the ladies after 4000+ posts.

Friendzone, is whatever the fvck I want it to be, and since everyone makes up their own definitions, I wrote the text in a pretty clear way, to show wich cases I was adressing.

The adressed case, was wen the the community says you should not be her friend, and that you should show sexual interest or kino from the very beginning, or you are dead. That´s totally false.

Of course there is that friendzone, that is when you are rejected, but obviously it wasn´t about that einstein...

Haha you mad bro? You don't get to redefine the terms. Sorry. Nice try.

 

[jammy1257]

Theres a lot of members also saying that LJBF from the start is a better way to get the girl you want, I also giving it a try. I think the OP has the definition on point.

 

[Igetit!]

Friendzone, is whatever the fvck I want it to be, and since everyone makes up their own definitions, I wrote the text in a pretty clear way, to show wich cases I was adressing.

Well to me,my "personal" definition of friendzone is.......



when she cries on your shoulder/being her emotional tampon
tells you you're like a "brother" to her
talks to you like you're one of her "girl" friends
talks to you about the other guys she's having sex with




when all that has been going on for months and months,and you've never...EVER said or doen anything sexual towards her yourself because you were "scared" you might ruin things.



THAT'S what I classify as "friendzone",and that's not "bad",it's HORRIBLE.



Anybody who can come back from all that and enter into a sexual relationship with the chick is quite simply the "MAN".

The adressed case, was wen the the community says you should not be her friend, and that you should show sexual interest or kino from the very beginning, or you are dead. That´s totally false.

It may be false to you,but it was totally true back in my friendzone days.


I don't think it means you're totally dead,but it IS a bit of a setback.

It's kinda like an unnecessary detour. It takes you out of your way and waste time.




Friends and friendzone are two different things.


Friendzone,(that is when you've been around a girl for a while,finally ask her out,then she says LJBF) IS rejection. Truely being friends is not.

Theres a lot of members also saying that LJBF from the start is a better way to get the girl you want, I also giving it a try. I think the OP has the definition on point.

This is flat out RIDICULOUS.



So you're going to PURPOSELY get friendzoned with the intentions of eventually getting sexual/dating the girl.




Wow. This place has sure changed from when I first joined up. Back then,the mere mentioned of the word "friendzone" sents chivers of fear up our spines,now were being advised not only to welcome it,but to seek it out.



Wow.

 

[corrector]

This notion that the friendzone is bad, comes from anecdotal evidence, where people remember a few times they were rejected by a female friend.
But then, how can you say other methods are better, when the % of success in bars/clubs or with people you don´t know that well is terribly low, now matter how good looking you are.

From this thread here:
http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=186076

I find the notion that looks has nothing to do with success to be absurd, and that friendzone is really a rejection that is based on looks or "superficiality", and is usually really dumping a guy for both relationship & friendship while saying some BS to make the woman feel nice to herself at the moment rather than being the superficial amoral ruthless b1tch she really is.

See this thread -- that guy has no problem with friendzone and envies uglier men for having the problem.

(i.e. you are not good looking enough to be relationship/sexual material, but just good as a friend or orbiter).

The idea is stupid way of getting a nice "angel" complex over the friend when you find out she bangs someone who looks better than you and cries to you as her "friend" that all real men are jerks (but you are diqualified as a 'real man' as she is crying to you.), then you feel like a chump.

 

[Tyson420]

Well to me,my "personal" definition of friendzone is.......



when she cries on your shoulder/being her emotional tampon
tells you you're like a "brother" to her
talks to you like you're one of her "girl" friends
talks to you about the other guys she's having sex with




when all that has been going on for months and months,and you've never...EVER said or doen anything sexual towards her yourself because you were "scared" you might ruin things.



THAT'S what I classify as "friendzone",and that's not "bad",it's HORRIBLE.



Anybody who can come back from all that and enter into a sexual relationship with the chick is quite simply the "MAN".






It may be false to you,but it was totally true back in my friendzone days.


I don't think it means you're totally dead,but it IS a bit of a setback.

It's kinda like an unnecessary detour. It takes you out of your way and waste time.




Friends and friendzone are two different things.


Friendzone,(that is when you've been around a girl for a while,finally ask her out,then she says LJBF) IS rejection. Truely being friends is not.









This is flat out RIDICULOUS.



So you're going to PURPOSELY get friendzoned with the intentions of eventually getting sexual/dating the girl.




Wow. This place has sure changed from when I first joined up. Back then,the mere mentioned of the word "friendzone" sents chivers of fear up our spines,now were being advised not only to welcome it,but to seek it out.



Wow.

This is a very good discussion.

Look, the way I see it. And I think the way the OP sees it. Is that the more hot friends you have, the better. It's the social proof, if you LJBF yourself with HB8s. Which is okay, nothing wrong with that really IMHO, and then of course you intend to one day get with them that's okay too.

What I'm trying to say is, that the Friendzone is nothing that people should be fearing. Like what's wrong with remaining friends? What are you gonna do when you get LJBF'd? Get pissed? Get mad because you took a Loss?

Just ignore it, still give off the sexual vibe whenever. Make it look like the stupid 'friendship' frame she put on between you is questionable, especially to others. Be ****y funny and whatever.

Like honestly guys what are you gonna do? Not talk to her anymore? Block her on Facebook?

We're grown men here... At least some of us. The problem is that we give up too easily for no reason at all.

If she's Flaky then thats a good reason to cut her off but LJBF? COME ON. Be her 'Friend' but don't be her 'Girlfriend' is what I'm saying. Don't listen to problems about her ex or current boyfriends, talk about something else and if she ain't about it, talk to someone else.

I can't stress it enough. IGNORE her BF problems or just give troll responses whenever she asks for advice?

"What does my BF mean when he says this. LOL you're a guy you should know!"

"He means you're kinda... You know chubby. Dead srs"

Like that, she'll get the picture. Not as harsh though lol. Please understand that every hot chick you meet, chances are millions of dudes ran trains on her. That I can assure you. That girl you think is so nice, so beautiful was passed around by mad dudes. This is what we're dealing with, so stop crying yourselves to sleep over these slores. Srsly.

You don't wanna be that guy... That carries her bags and ****, does all that just so one day... That opportunity will come. Be Alpha. It's what it's all about.

Having a flock of HB8s on you just because you're not some disgruntled loser, is much more valuable. Embrace it.

 

[st_99]

This is a very good discussion.

Look, the way I see it. And I think the way the OP sees it. Is that the more hot friends you have, the better. It's the social proof, if you LJBF yourself with HB8s. Which is okay, nothing wrong with that really IMHO, and then of course you intend to one day get with them that's okay too.

What I'm trying to say is, that the Friendzone is nothing that people should be fearing. Like what's wrong with remaining friends? What are you gonna do when you get LJBF'd? Get pissed? Get mad because you took a Loss?

Just ignore it, still give off the sexual vibe whenever. Make it look like the stupid 'friendship' frame she put on between you is questionable, especially to others. Be ****y funny and whatever.

Like honestly guys what are you gonna do? Not talk to her anymore? Block her on Facebook?

We're grown men here... At least some of us. The problem is that we give up too easily for no reason at all.

If she's Flaky then thats a good reason to cut her off but LJBF? COME ON. Be her 'Friend' but don't be her 'Girlfriend' is what I'm saying. Don't listen to problems about her ex or current boyfriends, talk about something else and if she ain't about it, talk to someone else.

I can't stress it enough. IGNORE her BF problems or just give troll responses whenever she asks for advice?

"What does my BF mean when he says this. LOL you're a guy you should know!"

"He means you're kinda... You know chubby. Dead srs"

Like that, she'll get the picture. Not as harsh though lol. Please understand that every hot chick you meet, chances are millions of dudes ran trains on her. That I can assure you. That girl you think is so nice, so beautiful was passed around by mad dudes. This is what we're dealing with, so stop crying yourselves to sleep over these slores. Srsly.

You don't wanna be that guy... That carries her bags and ****, does all that just so one day... That opportunity will come. Be Alpha. It's what it's all about.

Having a flock of HB8s on you just because you're not some disgruntled loser, is much more valuable. Embrace it.

This is kind of what I was thinking. The dreaded "friendzone" that everybody is afraid of is more about perception and attitude.

Basically its saying you care and you care a lot and it hurts when she turns you down. BUT what if you got shot down but had the attitude of "pffft, please.. she turned ME down.. now thats funny, I bet i can still get in her pants eventually" and you continue to "be her friend" but not in a sense of somebody she can talk to about her boy problems because you wont allow that. Thats a different attitude thats acceptable in my book but probably hard to pull off. BUT, I suppose if she does get a 'serious' boyfriend then you can just bounce and say to hell with her.

 

[The_411]

Some are on the mark ... others not so much

It's all a matter of where you are coming from.

Remember he/she who cares the least controls the relationship.

Getting put in the friendzone is different then voluntarily going there.

The key is understand that going voluntarily means you not attracted or you aren't plotting to go in under the radar.

You're just enjoying company and have no expectation and even better you're not even think about getting busy with the girl.

Now when you're after a girl and she friendzones you then you're often stuck.

How often when a girl you're interested friendzones you is there an actual friendship? It's a token offer not to be taken seriously in most cases. It's a way to suggest I'm rejecting you but so I don't feel bad I'll make a counter-offer that you likely won't take but that counter offer doesn't make me look like a *****.

If you take it then she wins because she'll likely get attention from you, spin you around in circles all the while she's railing the guy that couldn't give two ****s about her and will make her act crazy like she's addicted to him.

If you have any inkling of attraction the friends is not the way to go unless you're a pro andare able to keep focused on other women.

However if that's the case chances are you're spinning multiple plates and not concerned about the girl.

It all comes back to how you project to the girl and how you get to a certain position.

When it's from a position of strength then there's still ability to get away from it.

When you get there from weakness you're in trouble.

 

[st_99]

Remember he/she who cares the least controls the relationship.

I think this bottom lines it. It all comes down to who cares the most or if at all. I say this all the time, do your best to not care so much. It's hard though, i'll admit that.

 

[BettorOffSingle]

Assuming most here, want a decent girlfriend, although this is also true for flings and for those who dismiss friendship as very powerful way to build romantic interest (even if in the long run):

Recently I just had 3 new couples on my social group, between people who know each other for centuries.
Most couples I know of (or even couples I don´t know), start with people being friends, and spending a lot of time together.

But the community insists, that the friendzone is bad on what basis?

A friend is a friend, don´t try to remake the definiton, to match your theories.

This notion that the friendzone is bad, comes from anecdotal evidence, where people remember a few times they were rejected by a female friend.
But then, how can you say other methods are better, when the % of success in bars/clubs or with people you don´t know that well is terribly low, now matter how good looking you are. The time investment is higher on a friendship of course, but you have always something to gain.

The logic being used : you were rejected 20 girls in a row, cold approaching, or hitting of girls you barely know, being all player and sexual/teasing, but the community keeps telling you that´s the way to go pall, cause it´s a numbers game.
You get rejected by a girl friend a few times, you are an idiot, cause you were being friends with her.

Reallity shows that most people get their LTRs with friends.

The truth is, you shouldn´t be a *****. Whatever method you use, act confidently and manly.
Even Pook, tells you need to have patience, that´s why I get the betterofsingle theory , of being friends with hotties, wich worked for me a few times.

Before everyone thinks I endorse LJBF over sex with super-hotties, I do not. I do, however, endorse PROGERSS, and, without question, my greatest progress as a "PUA" came during the two years I spent chasing the OTL and Kate, probably the only two women I ever truly wanted to marry. With the OTL, I parked in LJBF becuase I had no idea what to do, and this enabled me to learn both about her, and how other men gamed her, so after a year I had "mad PUA skills" without realizing it. The missing ingredient was being UNTAMABLE, which is what Kate gave me, since I didn't want to marry anyone afrter her.

In Kate's case, I parked in LJBF while trying to find a way to escalate, got frustrated, used the "PUA" tactic of engineering isolation at a keg party, didn't close the deal (out of AFC respect, not fear), then crashed when I asked her out on a real date that she cancelled, prior to her causing me to fall in love with her a month later as she attempted to reengage for LJBF. Once I recovered from that heartbreak, I no longer needed LJBF, but wound up in there due to target overload (too many live targets), lack of proximity (like SHBDancer being in NYC or Philadelphia when I was in Phialdelphia or NYC), and so forth. I did keep "phantom girlfriends" (PGs) as LJBFs, who I would "use" for emotional support, but mainly to avoid pestering the live super-elites, which is how they stayed live.

To clarify, here is when I endorse LJBF:

1. LEARNING. Efvery AFC should develop LJBFs with super-elites, as it's easier to cross the "friend" barrier than to upgrade from having sex with uglies. This is a FREE BOOTCAMP that can run a few years (see the VCABM in my book). My "botocamp" ended with Kate, which is also when I lost my "designated soulmate." This too is not an accident, as the OTL "prepared" me for Kate, where I finally had the skills to attract a "soulmate" type super-elite (she was just marriage-averse), thus ending both the soulmate-search and the "bootcamp" simultaneously. From there I emerged a (very) "reluctant PUA."

2. AVOIDING LIVE SUPER-ELITES. The "phantom girlfriend" serves this purpose: a cute woman, one you might want, but who is much more useful as a friend. The PG will keep you "out of trouble" and preserve your live targets.

3. LACK OF PROXIMITY. If distance is an issue, an LJBF beats an LDR, unless you actually have sex first.

4. PIVOTING. If you need to build your target roster, a solid super-elite pivot is always useful, and an LJBF with a super-elite lends itself to this very easily.

5. TIMING/OTHER. Take what nature gives you. If she has a boyfriendk, or you have a girlfriend, or the timing is just bad, go for LJBF.

In any case, think of LJBF as an ADDITION to your life, not a LOSS of someone you probably didn't have a chance with anyway. As long as you don't wind up with ONEITIS, or allowing your LJBF to stop your other options, you'll be fine, even much better off for having added her.

Ray Gordon
Bettor Off single: Why Commitment Is A Bad Gamble For Men
http://www.toosmarttofail.com/bos.pdf
FREE!

 

[handle]

an older post of mine:

"friend zone" and LJBF refers to when a woman isn't straight-up with you and throws out the whole "I like you as a friend" thing. It's not real friendship. It's them tolerating your presence while being completely unattracted to you. Being friends is fine. That's a different thing. We just use the term "friend zone" because that's how lots of people perceive it -- as a friendship when really it's a low-impact way to push you aside. Very different things.

I understand what you're saying OP (and it's valid!), but you're not using the standard definition of friend zone.