Framing and de-framing

[MisterSisterFister]

I've been reading up a lot on all this. Please tell me what each of these mean to you and then give examples. Be thorough I am interested in learning more. I will think of how I could explain it and also give examples.

 

[flashpoint]

my take on this subject:

a frame defines and is defined by what is in it and also by what is not. how things are related and how not. what is within the frame constitutes a motif(or even several of them). i think of it alot as like in film-theory where there is the "cadre" which basically means the same thing. a detail of reality perceived within the restrictions that a specific camera lense gives you.

but basically it means putting things in context.
and de-framing consequently means taking things out of context.

lets say your frame is playing the bad boy seducer. you take anything that happens as some sort of proof that you are exactly that. girls are chasing you, you are aloof, moody, selfish, incredibly sexy, adventurous (leather jacket, tattoos included etc.), exhibit visibly all the traits that this specific motif brings with it.


de-framing
now take all this away and just look at the behaviour, ignore the context and what is left is meaningless, odd, sometimes even offending.

destroying the frame is almost easy, just take one piece and twist it, like lets say "you are not as attractive as you think", "you are just not funny" ...etc. things like that are also known as sh1tests, attempts to destabilize parts of the frame and see if it breaks. the question is who does believe more in his reality, you or your counterpart. you believe your own bullsh1t and your frame will survive.

simply de-framing can be useful if you can make understood that you can see behind the bullsh1t without attacking. "on the outside i see a woman that is incredibly beautiful and sexy and who likes to play with men but deep down inside i see a scared little girl that just wants to be loved and find someone she can trust."

re-framing --> you can also put things in different contexts, mostly by addressing the things that arent visible in the picture right now.
a guy comes up to you in a bar and tries to hit on your date? - he either is bold and a natural seducer or just a guy that has no friends and feels lonely, making him a pathetic loser without the need to say it out loud. take your pick and define what is what. difference to the aforementioned example is here you fill in the gaps.

but you can also reinterpret the motif that is visible. a girl that is showing no interest - just playing hard to get. she doesnt want to talk to you? - she is shy. she is avoiding eyecontact-she secretly wants you but is afraid to show it out of fear of rejection. you have to make that interpretation known though to her otherwise its just a mental masturbation exercise.


and there is:

stealing a frame
reverse roles, basically putting yourself into that picture. taking over the motif -->

like lets say girls are usually the ones who are chased after, now you put yourself in her shoes and accuse her of sexually harrassing you, grabbing your butt and such. become the object of her sexual desires, and she becomes the one that cant control her impulses. be ready to act first though, since only then the other person will be forced to play along and take the counterpart.

 

[Scaramouche]

Dear SisterFister (You disgusting Beast),
Well Flashpoint is almost definitive on this,but going "On Line"to my tried and trusted Oxford Dictionary,which is still used by the Australian Legal system in questions of Semantics...I find no problem interpreting Dating parlance from it.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

Ross Jeffries on Frames

A Hypnotist on Frames

How to Frame Away Your Problems

George Lakoff - Linguist / Democratic Strategist on Frames

Reframing by Bandler and Grinder, One of the original books on NLP

My own opinion, from a sales background, is that whomever sets the frame will control the outcome. For example, if I'm selling something, and I'm desperate, then I take on a frame of supplication: "I hope they buy this." They have the power.

On the other hand, if I'm sure I'm going to sell a lot more, then I might have a frame of "Hurry up and make up your mind, either way, I've paying customers to deal with." and I'm indifferent.

On the other hand, there might be one product left, and I have already promised it to another customer. Then my frame could be: "There's no way you're convincing me to sell you this. Unless of course you offer to pay double or something, so I can split my commission with the dude I'd already promised the product to."

Similarly, in dating, your frame could be supplication:

"I hope she likes me. I hope I run the "right" game," in which case you are with the weaker frame, and she has all the power.

Or, "Hmm, let's see if she and I have enough in common." in which case your frames are equal, and you go from there.

Or, "Damn. I'm tired. It would be a lot of work to go back to her place, have sex, do the pillow talk. Then I wouldn't get home till morning, and I've got a big day ahead of me tomorrow, so she'd better SUPER HOT with a SUPER NICE personality, and show ZERO RED Flags or I'm bailing." In which you assume the stronger frame, and she's got to qualify herself to you.

Generally speaking, the stronger your frame is, the less other people's opinions and actions bother you, the more attractive, charismatic, and in demand socially you'll be.

You'll also clean up in sales.

Summary:

Wherever you are in life men, increase the strength of your frame.

 

[MisterSisterFister]

These are all excellent examples I would like to see more.

Heres another to add to the question. I have been reading up alot on all this. While in a random conversation it can be easy to put in play but when it happens to somone you have developed emotions for it suddenly becomes more complicated not to lose frame or fall for those shyt tests. It becomes hard to not care about there insanely illogical statements and not let it move your frame. Or to get caught up in questions trying to lead them somewhere and getting lost yourself.

So what are your strategies for preventing these from happening?

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

So what are your strategies for preventing these from happening?

Two answers to that question. One you may not like. Most people don't.

ONE:

When you get emotionally closer to somebody, you start to unconsciously develop a "shared" frame. Once you're in that "shared" frame, it becomes REALLY hard to "step back" or "outframe." The only way to avoid this? Be VERY VERY careful who you start to share frames with.

AND

AND

AND

You absolutely MUST set a STRONG frame in the first couple months of the relationship. And that frame is this:

"If I'm not happy, I walk."

If you're already emotionally committed to somebody you HAVEN'T carefully qualified, and you HAVEN'T set that strong initial frame, you're pretty screwed.

Then you'll use every psychotic rationalization in the world to defend your situation.

That's where most guys on this board are, regardless of how alpha they think they are. They hang in there way longer than they should, and end up pissed of at women in general.

Qualify well and set a strong initial frame, and that shyte will never happen.

Of course, this takes a LOT of work, and you'll need to sort through a LOT of girls. Most guys just end up with whatever gal gives them the time of day.

Not to beat this point into the ground, but a metaphor could be one fish talking to another fish:

F1: How do I get myself unhooked?
F2: Don't bite it in the first place.
F1: But what if I already bit it?
F2: Then you're done dude, you're done.

Two:

The more experience you get, the more you realize that after every total failure is another opportunity, the easier it will be to "outframe."

The easier it will be to treat that hot 24 y/o spewing nonsense as a mental child with a hot body. Her words mean nothing.

The more experience you get, the less you'll start paying attention to her words, and the more you'll start paying attention to her underlying emotional state.

It's just like any other skill. You can't get good at it by reading about it. The only way to get good at it is practice it.

over and over and over and over and over and over and over

 

[MisterSisterFister]

That is some truly amazing ****. It really does make sense. I have read 2 books on it so far I am currently reading turning frogs into princes and then I have sleight of mouth. I feel like at first it was really confusing but I am slowly starting to catch on.

 

[San]

thumbs up!

But what if she asked you to teach her, when she said she"ll follow you?

cry me a river...

 

[MisterSisterFister]

thumbs up!

But what if she asked you to teach her, when she said she"ll follow you?

cry me a river...

This is does not make any sense to me? Please explain in more detail?

 

[San]

What is says on the thin .. What if she asks you to teach her? and what if she said she will follow you? What if in my actions and words to setup a framework she refuses to co-operate? Thereby not meeting the needs of your framework.

Next ? or let it simmer with indifference.. what's your take?