For Men Who Strongly Dislike Feminism (British and Canadian men please read this)

[ketostix]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
lol...actually...it's not just about not assuming women men are interested in are feminists...but just women in general. I mean, when some guys call a VERY anti-feminist woman a feminist then you just gotta KNOW that there is something seriously wrong with the way they are looking at women in general. That's what motivated me to start this thread. Go to the tips section and read Pook's posts in the Feminism thread. In that tip he made he quoted me using some of the rants I made about feminism that he collected and saved. Anyone who reads that post will clearly see that there is no way in hell that I'm a feminist. So, if someone actually thinks I am a feminist it is obvious that they just think all women are feminists and are looking for any excuse to feel victimized by women. That is one of the most self-destructive attitudes a man can have.

All women in N. America are enjoying the fruits of feminism (as I defined: a grab for power, control, and resources). Therefore, they're all feminist. If you're going to tell me in GENERAL women aren't given preference in relationships, education, corporate and government employment and services then a) you're deceived b) ignorant or c) a feminist.

How is it self-destructive to realize the playing field is unlevel? Realization of a problem is the first step towards correcting it. No one can change society, but the way I see this forum is all about how to seduce women by getting around the advantage feminism gives women. One of the things feminism does it take away complete control of many guys' own sexuality for one thing. We don't need to debate feminism here. No one's whining about being a victim. That's why we discuss female seduction in the first place, to not end up or remain victimized AFCs.

 

[rgeere]

Originally posted by ketostix
We don't need to debate feminism here. No one's whining about being a victim. That's why we discuss female seduction in the first place, to not end up or remain victimized AFCs.

The thing is that there really isn't a defining factor when it comes to aggression. It doesn't matter whether you are male or female, unless you consider everyone someone is going to come out a loser in the end.

That is why it is only natural to consider a highly aggressive woman a feminist or influenced by feminine philosophy, because she is going to be doing the same crap that anyone else would be doing to draw power or control or to dominate or to blame other people for her own personal problems.

Men are guilty of doing the same thing, so I can't really blame either gender. But like I said, if you don't consider everyone, then someone is going to lose.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by ketostix


How is it self-destructive to realize the playing field is unlevel?

Go back and read the first post I made in this thread. The answer to that question can be found in that first post. Actually...I'll repost it for you for the sake of making things easier to follow for those reading this thread.


It's good to understand that feminism is not a good thing and to be aware of the impact it has on society. However, there is a disturbing pattern I have seen from British and Canadian men especially. (Which is why I often end up arguing with a lot of them.) Many of you are operating under the assumption that all women ("especially North American women") are feminists. To start with, this simply isn't true, and to hold that belief make you much like those feminists you don't like. Men who are on the defensive and constantly looking for a reason to blame feminism on something or label a woman a feminist is no better than that feminist who is looking for any excuse to blame men for something stupid.

Most women aren't feminists...but many of them are influenced by feminist messages. They don't even realize it or know it...so don't hold so much animosity towards them for something they aren't even doing on purpose. Instead, take a calm, rational and understanding approach and simply point out what kind of impact feminism has on women. Do it in a way that doesn't include wagging your finger, blaming and holding animosity. You'll stand a much better chance at actually making a positive difference if you do that.

Over the years I have been probably THE MOST vocal anti-feminist person on this forum. Yet many of the men who hold all the unhealthy animosity are constantly accusing me of being a feminist of being influenced by feminism just because I have a strong personality and don't tolerate any crap. It's really ridiculous. I'd be the first one to tell a man to be aware of the negative influences of feminism...but I also warn of how important it is NOT to let that knowledge turn you into a beast just as ugly and offensive as that which you despise. There is far TOO MUCH of this going on here, and it does NOT help the situation...in fact, it only reinforces and supports those screwed up messages feminism has poisoned society with. Don't be part of the problem...be part of the solution.

 

[ketostix]

And I disagreed with your premise and your conclusions...and I never will agree, so I'm done

 

[Don_Joffe]

Wyldfire: I have said alot about you recently that you are an AW and my opinion of you has not changed, you love the attention.

My message to everyone else: Dont you see that you are getting nowhere by fighting with Wyldfire, she is adamant on her views and she wont change or adapt to anyone else's views. She is one-track minded and loves the attention, the more you fight with her the more she enjoys it and the more chance of her winning the "argument." Just let her be and ignore her.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Don_Joffe
Wyldfire: I have said alot about you recently that you are an AW and my opinion of you has not changed, you love the attention.

My message to everyone else: Dont you see that you are getting nowhere by fighting with Wyldfire, she is adamant on her views and she wont change or adapt to anyone else's views. She is one-track minded and loves the attention, the more you fight with her the more she enjoys it and the more chance of her winning the "argument." Just let her be and ignore her.

It's your story...I'll let you tell it. Oh, and your post has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. For someone who is adamant that all I want is attention you sure do spend a lot of time giving me exactly what it is you claim I want. Or perhaps you are projecting your own behavior onto me, "Mr. I'm Hot and have such a big d*ck." Truth be told...I just think you're upset that my arguments with people are more compelling and interesting and get more views than your silly little spats with what's his name over who has the bigger schlong. But hey...let's get back to the topic at hand...

Men who hate feminists yet behave just like them...

discuss.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by ketostix
And I disagreed with your premise and your conclusions...and I never will agree, so I'm done

Actually, you brought no logical or rational debate to the table at all. In order to effectively debate an issue you need to have some kind of cohesive and compelling points to present. Sorry...but you have presented none. Simply disagreeing for the sake of being disagreeable doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[Lickaclit]

It still seems as though many of you are supporting this double-standard: It's okay to be a chauvinist--embracing your maleness--but it's not okay for women to embrace their femaleness [natural femininity] because it is somehow dangerous. "Dangerous to what?" is the question. It is simply a movement--in many cases--that simply tries to empower women over our M.A.L.E world filled with "testosterone".

I have read countless posts where women are subjected to an entirely irrational male perspective that has no bearing whatsoever in the real world. It harkens back to the fifties where the generalizations of “what being feminine really means” began. Women are this, men are that; and we ultimately dehumanize and create a category—that is expressed through set standards that aren’t even realistic—of the opposite sex.

There is no defining factor for the essence of our species, full stop. To categorize a particular characteristic of a [certain type of (insert sex here)] is ridiculous and adolescent. This shouldn’t even be a matter of acknowledging an unleveled playing field, or fighting a movement that is, in all respect, (fundamentally) beneficial to society as a whole. We should strive to make the field level lest we continue to trample on the notion of equality.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by Lickaclit
It still seems as though many of you are supporting this double-standard: It's okay to be a chauvinist--embracing your maleness--but it's not okay for women to embrace their femaleness [natural femininity] because it is somehow dangerous. "Dangerous to what?" is the question. It is simply a movement--in many cases--that simply tries to empower women over our M.A.L.E world filled with "testosterone".

I have read countless posts where women are subjected to an entirely irrational male perspective that has no bearing whatsoever in the real world. It harkens back to the fifties where the generalizations of “what being feminine really means” began. Women are this, men are that; and we ultimately dehumanize and create a category—that is expressed through set standards that aren’t even realistic—of the opposite sex.

There is no defining factor for the essence of our species, full stop. To categorize a particular characteristic of a [certain type of (insert sex here)] is ridiculous and adolescent. This shouldn’t even be a matter of acknowledging an unleveled playing field, or fighting a movement that is, in all respect, (fundamentally) beneficial to society as a whole. We should strive to make the field level lest we continue to trample on the notion of equality.

I agree with your point that some men who post here do have some irrational beliefs about women. But I will also say that it's no more prevalent then women who have irrational beliefs about men (like they are inherently bad, abusive, are at fault for everything, make more money for the same work, are all rapists...etc).

Feminism in the beginning had honorable goals of equality...but somewhere along the lines that changed into all out male bashing and something pretty damn ugly and evil. Recognizing that for what it is, well, that's a good thing. Embracing the same disgusting behavior and attitudes in a reverse mode is where things go drastically wrong and becomes irrational. Just as so many on here rightly state that feminists are fighting nature and their femininity, it is the same thing when an anti-feminist man takes on the behavior of a feminist. They are fighting their masculinity and rejecting it because in order to behave like a feminist you HAVE to view and portray yourself as a victim. Men who embrace victimhood become inherently LESS masculine.

 

[Lickaclit]

To categorize a particular characteristic of a [certain type of (insert sex here)] is ridiculous and adolescent.

I implied all that good stuff here. Victimhood is a characterization. The term "femininity" is a characterization. They are each, in and of themselves, adolescent--on a few levels.

 

[TillTheEndOfTime]

Anyone else find it ironic that Wyldfire attacked a generlization with another generalization?

 

[rgeere]

Nope, it's just one heaping bowl of hypocracy to me. The problem is people, not gender.

 

[ketostix]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
Actually, you brought no logical or rational debate to the table at all. In order to effectively debate an issue you need to have some kind of cohesive and compelling points to present. Sorry...but you have presented none. Simply disagreeing for the sake of being disagreeable doesn't cut the mustard.

Yeah right. I asserted that all women are taking advantage of feminism and the evidence is everywhere, whether you choose to see it or not. Your premise is theyre not and you go so far to say men should be silent victims of feminism, lest according to you theyre not masculine and are feminist themselves hahaha. That coercive argument's exactly why feminism isn't challenged by more males (you don't like feminism, well no pvssy for you son). "Oh I hate feminism..but you boys better not attack it". And you call that double talk logic. Sounds to me like your a feminist in sheep's clothing claim you're not one while telling guys keep quiet. You are narrowmined and incorrigible like most women, so keep on shouting you're so logical and always right. What else can you expect from a female? If you were logical and fair-minded you'd be male. And you continuosly take everything personal, in turn attack personally, and then toot your own horn. I'm done with you.

 

[DeathDealer]

"Hello I'm a girl, and I'm going to post something controversial so people will pay attention to me."

Close this thread.

 

[Luveno]

Feminism isn't the problem

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=71028

 

[rgeere]

Originally posted by DeathDealer
"Hello I'm a girl, and I'm going to post something controversial so people will pay attention to me."

Close this thread.

I agree, and ban wyldfyer while you are at it so we would not have to worry about AFCs buying into irrational agression, overreaction, and personalization as a way into a woman's pants or heart.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by TillTheEndOfTime
Anyone else find it ironic that Wyldfire attacked a generlization with another generalization?

That's not really what I did. Look at the locations of those who are behaving in the way I described in my first post. The ONLY non UK or Canadian person I've seen behave that way is one guy from Texas. When over 75% of the group you are addressing ARE either from the UK or Canada then it's perfectly acceptable to make that kind of association. It's not even a generalization. If I were generalizing I would say that ALL British and Canadian men display this behavior...but that is NOT what I said. I said that of the few men who DO display the behavior...the majority ARE from those places.

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by ketostix
Yeah right. I asserted that all women are taking advantage of feminism and the evidence is everywhere, whether you choose to see it or not.

That's not quite right. Although women DO benefit from the effects of feminism and ARE at an advantage as a result...that is not the same thing as "taking advantage of feminism". You appear to be of the belief that all women are cognizant of how feminism effects society and the messages women are sent. That simply is NOT true. Most women have no idea what is going on even though they are usually affected by it.

Your premise is theyre not and you go so far to say men should be silent victims of feminism, lest according to you theyre not masculine and are feminist themselves hahaha.

No, that's not what I said at all. I said that most women don't even realize how they have been influenced. I am saying that it is wrong to hold animosity towards anyone who is being used as a tool and doesn't even realize it. And nowhere did I tell men to stay silent. Instead I advise them to fight it in an EFFECTIVE way. Behaving JUST as badly as feminists behave is NOT an effective way to combat feminism. It makes you sound just as bugsh*t crazy as radical feminists...and when you sound that way rational people will NOT listen to what you say and deem you a raving lunatic. Men who behave just as feminists do only HURT their fellow men more by giving feminists ammunition to point to and say "look at this woman hater...see how men view women? We need more laws to protect women from attitudes like this!"

That coercive argument's exactly why feminism isn't challenged by more males (you don't like feminism, well no pvssy for you son). "Oh I hate feminism..but you boys better not attack it". And you call that double talk logic. Sounds to me like your a feminist in sheep's clothing claim you're not one while telling guys keep quiet. You are narrowmined and incorrigible like most women, so keep on shouting you're so logical and always right. What else can you expect from a female? If you were logical and fair-minded you'd be male. And you continuosly take everything personal, in turn attack personally, and then toot your own horn. I'm done with you.

Thank you for yet again providing another example of the type of anti-feminist man I eluded to in my first post. Out of curiosity keto, where do you live?

 

[Wyldfire]

Originally posted by DeathDealer
"Hello I'm a girl, and I'm going to post something controversial so people will pay attention to me."

Close this thread.

It would be silly to close this thread. The topic is a valid one and it's actually interesting and unique. If you are unable to handle the subject matter then I might suggest you move on to a post from someone asking if a girl is interested in him or not.

 

[sexual_intellectual]

Originally posted by Wyldfire
Oh, I think it's pretty clear that I'm always up for a heated debate. Problem is that I'm better at it than those who view me as the enemy. Reducing those who challenge me into snivelling whiny girls gets boring after awhile, if you get my drift. I'd much rather just give advice and offer my input on things and do without all the ridiculous drama. But hey...there is that Irish/Native American stubborn pride thing that won't allow me to back down. At least I own my own flaws...lol.

Fair enough - we're not disputing that you're proud, or enjoy arguing but what about the main point of the post that you wrote this in reply to?

"I think that the people on here who jump to conclusions and call you a feminist do so because you're a woman posting frequently and assertively on a male advice site. I don't think its anything to do with the way these men see women. Just the way they see women who visit sosuave.com!

That is wrong - but its not going to wreck anyone's life."

In other words - guys that think of you as feminist aren't as screwed up as you might think - they're reacting to you arguing as a female assertively on sosuave. Regardless of your intentions, to some thats going to feel like you're a pushy aggressive woman placing herself above the average guy as one who should be listened to.

The consequence of this argument being that this debate isn't important. They're OK because when they meet women in person they aren't half as suspicious, and make friends/hook up with women without the hang-ups you've described; you're OK because you didn't come here to make friends and you can always entertain yourself with the "enemy" role that you're generally typecast with.

What value is left in this debate?

In my opinion, very little - unless you're sure that TilTheEndOfTime/rgeere/ketostix have issues with women (as friends or lovers)/feminism when they're not on SoSuave.

(BTW - I'm using your definition of feminism here, not ketostix's, which is far broader, but more benign)