Finally, men are getting the blame for female ‘unplanned’ childlessness

[Slowhandluke]

The truth is, birth rates started cratering with the introduction of easy contraception and increases in education. As countries become wealthier and these become more widely available, birth rates decrease. This can be seen by looking at the Amish population, who have a birth rate of around 7 compared to the USA's 1.5.

Well.... the Amish don't really sleep around. It's kinda against their religion. I'm sure if they wanted contraception, they could get it -- probably against their religion, but they could.

Even with the wide availability of contraception in the USA, I think the Hispanic people in the USA are also having a lot more babies than whites... perhaps the American Indians (not Native Americans) and Muslims also. Not sure, haven't checked.

 

[zekko]

I mean, those several guys that you do know, are they saying, "I may be suffering like this, my ex-wife might be with another guy, and I may barely get to see my children...but hey, at least I brought a child into the world and here is all of my bragging rights".

Well, the manosphere frequently talks about the "winner" being the guy who gets to pass his DNA on. And I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I don't have any kids either. There's a story I like to tell, where I was talking to some random girl, who asked me about my children, and I said I didn't have any kids. She said "Wow, how selfish can you get?". I always remember that, because it was such an unusual response. I can't deny there's a grain of truth in there somewhere though.

Then when need to have a tooth and nail political fight to revise law and policy, don't we?

Good luck with that. To start with, we're outnumbered.

 

[corrector]

Well, the manosphere frequently talks about the "winner" being the guy who gets to pass his DNA on.

Right, making allot of single mothers and being a deadbeat for child support. That's a real winner.

And I suppose that's one way of looking at it. I don't have any kids either. There's a story I like to tell, where I was talking to some random girl, who asked me about my children, and I said I didn't have any kids. She said "Wow, how selfish can you get?". I always remember that, because it was such an unusual response. I can't deny there's a grain of truth in there somewhere though.

I can't speak for your life story and why you feel there is a grain of truth in that.

When the last lady asked me about my kids, I told her you need a woman to make kids, and she had a laugh.

 

[BaronOfHair]

To start with, we're outnumbered.

By our own rationalizations for not going out into the wild and engaging in actual activism

 

[Mike32ct]

Right, making allot of single mothers and being a deadbeat for child support. That's a real winner.



I can't speak for your life story and why you feel there is a grain of truth in that.

When the last lady asked me about my kids, I told her you need a woman to make kids, and she had a laugh.

People that know me already know I don’t have kids. People I just met never ask if I have kids. For people I know, I jokingly say “I wanna retire soon so I can spend more time with the grandkids.” Lol

 

[RoadKing_Rabbit]

Finally? Like they haven't been the whole dang time. Heh.

 

[zekko]

Right, making allot of single mothers and being a deadbeat for child support. That's a real winner.

Well, if you want your DNA perpetuated, it's a big thing.

I can't speak for your life story and why you feel there is a grain of truth in that.

I guess because I've always followed my own plans and interests first, before thinking of reproducing.

By our own rationalizations for not going out into the wild and engaging in actual activism

You may be right, but I don't usually associate "activism" as being something sensible people do. It's more recently been people with extreme viewpoints.

 

[Clockwerk50]

Well.... the Amish don't really sleep around. It's kinda against their religion. I'm sure if they wanted contraception, they could get it -- probably against their religion, but they could.

Even with the wide availability of contraception in the USA, I think the Hispanic people in the USA are also having a lot more babies than whites... perhaps the American Indians (not Native Americans) and Muslims also. Not sure, haven't checked.

Africa is the only continent still above the replacement rate of about 2.1; every other continent is at or below replacement. Africa's fertility is also declining so this isn't just a Western issue.

I think the main point is that this is a global demographic pattern driven by education, wealth, contraception, the internet, and changing attitudes toward having children. I see many people enjoying life and delaying parenthood until having more children becomes harder and more expensive. After all, more money means more freedom to enjoy life before having kids.

Total fertility rate - Wikipedia

Why More American Women are Delaying Motherhood in their 20s - The New York Times

 

[corrector]

Well, if you want your DNA perpetuated, it's a big thing.

Did you want your DNA perpetuated though? What about guys that want to get vacetomies to avoid pregnancy or are terrified of getting a woman pregnant? What do you make of that then? Do you think they are crazy?

I guess because I've always followed my own plans and interests first, before thinking of reproducing.

That depends on what you mean. You might be saying in a vieled way, "I can't really afford to bring a child into the world, financially, without putting my own plans and interest first to put myself in a better financial position so I could eventually afford to do so. But if the plans don't work out and I still can't afford it then, whatever."
Or, you could mean that you are really selfish prick like the lady said. I guess it depends on what version of that you mean.

How do you feel about population collapse? I mean eventually when we get old and retired, there may not be enough taxes generated from younger generations to support our pensions. Are you worried about that?

 

[zekko]

Did you want your DNA perpetuated though? What about guys that want to get vacetomies to avoid pregnancy or are terrified of getting a woman pregnant? What do you make of that then? Do you think they are crazy?

I think guys are terrified of getting a woman pregnant because they don't want to commit to that woman, and share the responsibility of raising children together. Or worse yet, of having the child and then being divorced and having his child taken away from him - and end up writing checks to the mom, who spends it on general lifestyle, while he lives in poverty.

As for the selfishness, sure having a kid costs money. I could have afforded some, but then maybe I couldn't get that new car I wanted, and I might have had to work a few more years instead of retiring early, if I would have had to buy a few college educations. Or maybe I woul have had to work a few more hours. There's also the time constraint - raising kids takes time that could be spent on other things I enjoy. I also like to sleep, I understand that's not something that new parents especially get a lot of. But let me be clear: Yeah, I admit I am selfish - but I'm not a prick.

 

[BaronOfHair]

@zekko "I think guys are terrified of getting a woman pregnant because they don't want to commit to that woman, and share the responsibility of raising children together"

The modern gent spends ages 0-18

-Saddled with structured play... The days where he and the fellas could wile away most of their adolescence shooting hoops badly and gawking at porn ended somewhere around '91

-Unable to walk down the street, without first undergoing an interrogation from Mummy and Daddy that makes the abominations at Guantanamo look mild... Even then, supervision is often required

-Being coerced into going to bed, an hour after the sun has set

-Required to obtain a LICENSE before he can fish, hunt, or even purchase a firearm to blast open the head of that bison he's hungry for

-In fear of saying anything other than "Puppies are cute" out loud, lest he be punished(at school, at home, sometimes both)on account of someone finding his words "harmful"

-Languishiing in primary schools, 8 hours a day/5 days per week, where he and his peers are forced to mull over bulls-it that largely fails to enrich their cognitive functioning. They're also unable to so much as hit the crapper, without first groveling before some nitwit who lacked the talent to excel in Corporate America, in exchange for said nitwit's permission


What red blooded man has any desire to give up whatever liberty he's now gained, once all of THAT nonsense is finally over? I'm not especially young anymore, yet I STILL have no desire to replace a mother/school marms who never kicked their nagging addiction with a wife who's afflicted with the very same infirmity

 

[corrector]

I think guys are terrified of getting a woman pregnant because they don't want to commit to that woman, and share the responsibility of raising children together. Or worse yet, of having the child and then being divorced and having his child taken away from him - and end up writing checks to the mom, who spends it on general lifestyle, while he lives in poverty.

The manosphere / blackpill is especially down on marriage (ie what it calls "divorce rape") because of that particular outcome. In fact, statistically, it's actually very probabile that divorces are either initiated or caused by a woman, so it's very likely a guy would end up divorced and his child taken away from him.

The point is still this...after all of that, do you see guys saying "gee wizz, I'm glad I spread my DNA even though I got divorced raped, I never get to see my kids and my ex-wife has poisoned them against me, on the brink of being homeless or in jail because of child support, etc...."

As for the selfishness, sure having a kid costs money. I could have afforded some, but then maybe I couldn't get that new car I wanted, and I might have had to work a few more years instead of retiring early, if I would have had to buy a few college educations. Or maybe I woul have had to work a few more hours. There's also the time constraint - raising kids takes time that could be spent on other things I enjoy. I also like to sleep, I understand that's not something that new parents especially get a lot of. But let me be clear: Yeah, I admit I am selfish - but I'm not a prick.

I think that is where the “DNA perpetuation” argument breaks down.


Passing on your DNA might sound like a win in the abstract, but if the outcome is divorce, child support, barely seeing your children, financial collapse, and a hostile ex, most men are not going to look back and say, “At least my DNA continues.”


For men in unstable financial situations, having children can feel less like a legacy move and more like a high-risk life decision. That is probably one reason birth rates are falling. It is not just selfishness; it is risk calculation.


Some people avoid children because they prefer freedom and comfort. Others avoid it because they look at family court, housing costs, unstable relationships, and their own responsibilities, and decide the risk is too high.

 

[zekko]

The point is still this...after all of that, do you see guys saying "gee wizz, I'm glad I spread my DNA even though I got divorced raped, I never get to see my kids and my ex-wife has poisoned them against me, on the brink of being homeless or in jail because of child support, etc...."

Most of the guys I know who have had kids love them and wouldn't give them up. But of course the guys who are divorce raped are bitter about it. Now that you mention it, risk calculation was absolutely a big part of my reasoning not to have children. Maybe I should have gave that answer to the woman who called me selfish. At the time though - heck, even now - I thought it was such an interesting response that I didn't say anything IIRC. First, I thought it was a fairly ballsy thing to say to a stranger, and as I said, I did think there was a grain of truth to it.

Then there is God's command: Go forth and multiply.

 

[corrector]

Most of the guys I know who have had kids love them and wouldn't give them up. But of course the guys who are divorce raped are bitter about it. Now that you mention it, risk calculation was absolutely a big part of my reasoning not to have children. Maybe I should have gave that answer to the woman who called me selfish. At the time though - heck, even now - I thought it was such an interesting response that I didn't say anything IIRC. First, I thought it was a fairly ballsy thing to say to a stranger, and as I said, I did think there was a grain of truth to it.

Then there is God's command: Go forth and multiply.

okay....being selfish is not necessarily a bad thing. Almost everybody is selfish on some level, including the woman who accused you as being selfish, lol It would more likely be a hypocritical statement since you could probably point out to one or two things that she is selfish about in her own life. One could argue that it's selfish to bring children into the world that you can't provide for or support. There is still a presumption that you are responsible for your children, and if you bring children into the world and do not have the capacity to be responsible for them, then that would be selfish, because that means someone else would have to take care of them.

God's command is to marry before having sex, lol There is no girlfriend/boyfriend in the Bible, just husband and wife. Any mandate is to preach the gospel and make disciples out of all nations, so it's a multiplication more Christians rather than more births in an obscure Genesis passage.

 

[zekko]

One could argue that it's selfish to bring children into the world that you can't provide for or support.

I could have supported them, I just preferred doing my own thing.

 

[corrector]

Next time, someone asks, if I have kids? Then I think I can change, "you need a woman to have children"...to "you need a woman to have children, do you want to volunteer?" That would put the challenge back to the lady who is asking such a question.