field report - date went well. or did it? what next?

[ogre]

finally got my first date from a CL post! it was this past Sunday. I think it went well, but her ad is still posted.

full story here:
http://www.freewebs.com/ogrespage/christie.htm

No calls or emails from either of us since Sunday. I called this eve, 2 rings, heard nithing, then said "hello? hello? then her phone hung up. waited a minute, called again from my other #, got voice-mailed. No call back. I'm sure she knows it's me. oh shyt, now I'm reverting back to AFC mode. (actually more like OCD - obsessive-compulsive disorder) I left am email saying:

Hi c**** perfect weather forecast for Sunday, so.....you're on. gimme call. *** *** **** ogre

ok so I know any girl who posts on CL gets about 200 replies so I'm sure she's out dating someone right now. As well as things went with us, I was OK but not exactly Mr Smooth. just OK. , I may already be out of the loop. what do you all think?

 

[penkitten]

next!

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Hey Ogre, would you go through your date again and do an autopsy of it. Don't just relive what happened, truthfully comment on it. Don't post what you hope will happen, post the brutal truth.

This (an dating autopsy) isn't the easiest thing to do but posting what happened without your own emotional filters will help point out what's not working for 'ya. Start with the very beginning, your online approach.

Oh, and not to keep you hanging, I believe with Pen that you should move on. I know my reputation of not giving women multiple chances precedes me, however in some instances it is readily apparent that things won't get any better.

 

[ogre]

I've been next'd

I called today, 4 rings, hung up. 30 min later got the following email:

Hi, unfortunately I'm booked this weekend. Sorry

autopsy report is that although our conversation was pleasant, for her there was no "chemistry", "sparks" "butterflies".

1st dates are very clumsy for me. I'm not smooth. and unfortunately it means I rarely, if ever, get a 2nd chance. convo skills are key and mine are just not up to that kind of a test. I did not lay on the C+F. we just talked about whatever. I honestly don't know how to have a convo, and I rarely get any field practice. I get a date, maybe once in a month or two, if that. and that's still 10x more than I got a year ago. so even though I'm making progress it's still way too slow.

 

[cinephile]

Just keep making the effort to go out and meet women. It will eventually lead to results. I know you want to bring it along quicker, but you gotta be able to walk before you can run.

 

[Howie Farkes]

Don't Analyse It

Don't sweat it, it's just the way things happen sometimes. And don't get too upset about your first date abilities either. The more first dates you go on the more comfortable you'll feel being in that situation.

And never place too much importance upon the outcome of any date either. That could be a reason why you're bombing - you're just a little too wound up to be getting out of it what you need.

Realise that some women will dig you, some women you will dig and in rare situations you will both dig each other - but if not the latter situation, don't get too concerned or try to analyse why, then go find another woman.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by ogre
I've been next'd

I called today, 4 rings, hung up. 30 min later got the following email:

Hi, unfortunately I'm booked this weekend. Sorry

autopsy report is that although our conversation was pleasant, for her there was no "chemistry", "sparks" "butterflies".

1st dates are very clumsy for me. I'm not smooth. and unfortunately it means I rarely, if ever, get a 2nd chance. convo skills are key and mine are just not up to that kind of a test. I did not lay on the C+F. we just talked about whatever. I honestly don't know how to have a convo, and I rarely get any field practice. I get a date, maybe once in a month or two, if that. and that's still 10x more than I got a year ago. so even though I'm making progress it's still way too slow.

Good job in defining your trouble spots. So now answer these questions:

1. Define what 'clumsy' means to you.
2. Describe in detail how a date in which you were 'smooth' would go.
   [/list=1]
   
   It's good to see that you are making progress. Trust me, it will take work but as long as you control what you do and what you learn you will get there.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Re: Don't Analyse It

Originally posted by Howie Farkes
Don't sweat it, it's just the way things happen sometimes. And don't get too upset about your first date abilities either. The more first dates you go on the more comfortable you'll feel being in that situation.

I disagree. If you want to get better at something, you have to consider what has happened in the past and determine what needs to be done differently to manifest a change.

And never place too much importance upon the outcome of any date either. That could be a reason why you're bombing - you're just a little too wound up to be getting out of it what you need.

This is true to the extent that you shouldn't let it distract you from being your best self. However, first impressions only happen once.

Realise that some women will dig you, some women you will dig and in rare situations you will both dig each other - but if not the latter situation, don't get too concerned or try to analyse why, then go find another woman.

True. However charisma will take you a long way.

 

[ogre]

Define what 'clumsy' means to you.

I was planning for the date to go a certain way, that is, the plan was supposed to be to pick her up and go for a motorcycle ride, not to park the bike go to the local diner and talk about bullshyt. I brought a helmet, maps, warm clothes, all this extra gear. but instead she wanted to just go to a diner and talk..... in a talking date I feel that I am at a disadvantage since my convo skills are still lacking. and I think my loss of control of the situation quickly put me in the chump zone.

Perhaps I should walk away from a date if I can't control it, that is, I could say, look, this is what we agreed to do, so I'm gonna go ahead and do it without ya, see ya later..."

Describe in detail how a date in which you were 'smooth' would go.

that would be to engage in an action date doing something that I feel familiar, confident and comfortable in. this way I feel I am in my "element" and in control. that's why I want to go on motorcycle ride dates and not dinner dates. I think a dinner date would be fine only if it was a stop during our ride.

- - - - -
Here is another personal ad on CL that lends some insight from a woman's point of view about what is and what ain't a good first date. it reflects the very things a lot of women feel. it could have (hypothetically) been written about me:

if i f*ck you on the first date....will you think i'm a slut, unworthy of your respect and a second date?

i'm just sick of the boring first dates with mindless small talk. somehow i always seem to find more interesting conversation with guys that I'm only hooking up with and then I think damn, why can't this be more? But of course it's the boring ass guys who are lousy f*cks who call me back.

I'm just tired of having to pretend to be a really nice girl for a few dates in order to find out what I want to really know about a guy.

I would say I am probably like the guy she describes as " boring first dates with mindless small talk" and ergo I would likely turn out to be "a lousy f*ck" ergo no chemistry/attraction/interest.

"i always seem to find more interesting conversation with guys that I'm only hooking up with"

translation: this chick is looking for a good f*ck. good convo skills mean good f*ck. good convo skills get the pu$$y.

Ergo, I need to keep my convo focused on getting the pu$$y. C+F, bust her chops, put her on the spot, twist everything she says into a joke to use against her. stay focused and don't lose track. All other topics, work, school, politics, whatever, are all nice things but will not get me a 2nd date, let alone any pu$$y.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Good post Orgre, very thorough and it was a good idea to post that other ad from CL. I've got a better understanding of the situation and how/why it's not working for 'ya.

I'll post something within the next day that may lend a bit of insight on why things aren't working for you. I just need a little time organize my thoughts.

 

[ogre]

one more thing....

I forgot to mention this but it's significant.

she ended our date with the dreaded air kiss. She reached towards me and gave me that "just friends" light hug and kisses the air, her cheek to mine. at the time I thought it was nice. but I described this to a female friend and she said "oh - that's bad....." She echoed all your comments in that this date was a flop and the "air kiss" is a girl's way of saying "Next!" I described this to a buddy as well and he confirmed it. So in retrospect I not only flopped the date but I flopped it bad. Maybe if I was a tall sexy hunk I coulda got away with it. - but I am competing with hundreds of other men - literally - and in the personal ads game the alphas take all and the rest of the chumps get nothing.

 

[ogre]

castration.....

when we were chatting up online she indicated that "she loves bikes" so I'm all psyched to take her out for a ride. So, here is my big chance to do something special, exciting, new, different, fun, something different from the other 200 chumps on CL. so when I got there she decides to take that away from me and just do the blah diner thing. Yuk. No wonder I flopped. I felt castrated. it's like, "OK ogre, now that I've cut your balls off let's go have our date" I should have refused. I should have said look here, this is what we planned to do and either you get your skinny ass on this here motorcycle or I'm going home. have a nice day. at worst I woulda rode out with my balls intact, and at best it woulda brought her IL up. what do you all think?

 

[Luveno]

Your hindsight is indeed 20/20

 

[TooColdUlrick]

don't know if this helps but below is a chat transcript from a couple weeks ago from a chick that responded to my personal on CL. she was diggin it. i've had very good responses from CL, and many compliments from my ad. but as you already know, CL is full of psycho bi-polar and/or BBW fuglies demanding Bradd Pitt.

there are a few totally hot, really cool chicks on CL though. you just have to sift through the trash and take it for what it is.

this particular chick is 28, blonde, Masters Degree, and SMOKING HOT, 5'5 110lbs and tight as a drum. she's an HB9, and i don't give a 10 to anyone. i have some modeling pics of her--artistic nudes. she has the body of a 21 year old, and is stunning, trust me, she lights up a room. she's top notch all the way.

shortly after this, we got funky on my sofa...then again later...and so on. closed the deal, if you want to put it that way. we're seeing each other a couple times a week. we are both very impressed with each other.

the only thing i can say regarding this thread is that i'm consistent--chatting, phone, in person. i'm a charming and engaging guy, both to men and women, just because of the work that i do.

with the ladies, and under these circumstances, i also try to elevate the sex talk and see where it goes. you might not want to do this, because i think you will come off as "creepy". obviously she's diggin it. this transcript is nothing compared to a few other previous chats that we had.

my "routine" for CL (and chat and other online pick ups) is this...

1) initiate contact, flip some emails (short or long, just depends)
2) screen as best i can
3) move it over to IM ASAP. i much prefer this, even to a phone call
-one criteria is to see if she can fukking spell!
-and if there's a good vibe/dialog
4) couple more chat sessions before we meet
-quick, easy, mini-dates, get a good vibe, work my magic, lol
5) if she "passes muster", get a meeting
6) i'm better in person, so her expectations will be exceeded
-OGRE, this is your problem: when you meet or talk, you are falling short
of her expectations. this is BAD. work on it.
6) continue seeing her, hang out, get funky, have fun, whatever comes of it
7) wash, rinse, repeat


--------

Wed Mar 30 17:36:08 2005

* (K) = That Kiss Emoticon Thingy

@ 17:52 = #4 is in reference to a previous discussion, on "the list" of things to do
@ 18:03 = she plays the "professor" angle, and i run with it--this always happens
@ 18:06 = she cuts it off, but i extend it a bit, so that i can cut it off, see ending


[17:36] HB9: did you miss me?
[17:36] TCU: of course i did. stop being so insecure
[17:36] TCU: you made me horny
[17:37] HB9: and so did you
[17:37] HB9: still horny?
[17:37] TCU: **smile**
[17:38] TCU: u?
[17:39] HB9: **smile**
[17:39] TCU: is your husband home yet? lol
[17:39] HB9: who?
[17:40] TCU: your huband!
[17:40] TCU: husband
[17:40] HB9: explain?
[17:40] TCU: joke, lol
[17:40] TCU: you're not married?
[17:41] HB9: i told you i'm not, absent minded professor
[17:41] HB9: where is your wife? in the bathroom?
[17:41] TCU: she went to vegas for a couple of days
[17:42] HB9: oh, how nice for you
[17:42] TCU: yes, i can play with a playtoy while she's gone
[17:43] HB9: bad boy.
[17:43] TCU: bad girl
[17:43] HB9: what did I do?
[17:43] TCU: playing with your pvssy today at work
[17:44] TCU: and got all of those important papers wet
[17:44] HB9: hmm...
[17:45] TCU: did i get you all horny when were chatting?
[17:45] HB9: very...
[17:45] TCU: wet?
[17:45] HB9: yes...
[17:46] TCU: would have loved to sneak up behind you
[17:46] TCU: and slipped my hand down there
[17:47] HB9: and?
[17:48] TCU: and rubbed
[17:48] TCU: and got you all wet
[17:48] TCU: and fingered you
[17:48] TCU: and rubbed your pvssy
[17:49] TCU: and ruined your panties, lol
[17:49] HB9: I would have liked that...
[17:49] TCU: we're going to ruin a lot of your panties, you know that?
[17:49] HB9: I do know that
[17:50] TCU: we'll go somewhere and get some new ones
[17:50] TCU: you have to model them for me though--that's the deal **smile**
[17:50] HB9: Agent Provocateur?
[17:51] TCU: indeed
[17:51] TCU: you don't mind
[17:51] HB9: what?
[17:52] TCU: agent provocateur
[17:52] HB9: I love it
[17:52] TCU: do you mind if i drool over you and treat you like a sex object?
[17:52] TCU: that was item #4, remember?
[17:53] HB9: Oh, you are good with numbers...no i don't mind **smile**
[17:53] TCU: i'm an economist
[17:53] TCU: a pvssy loving one too
[17:54] HB9: I hope you are not economizing in bed...
[17:55] TCU: there's a theory in economics
[17:55] TCU: insatiable wants
[17:55] TCU: e.g. "more is better"
[17:55] TCU: MORE IS BETTER **smile**
[17:55] HB9: More of what?
[17:55] TCU: of YOU!
[17:56] HB9: oh, how sweet
[17:56] TCU: gimme a kiss
[17:56] HB9: (K)
[17:56] TCU: (k)
[17:57] HB9: thank you
[17:57] TCU: thank YOU
[17:57] HB9: Oh, you are very welcome
[17:57] TCU: and you baby cakes
[17:58] TCU: so what's on the agenda tonight?
[17:58] HB9: Going to Los Feliz in about 10min
[17:59] TCU: los feliz is cool
[17:59] TCU: what are you going to do there?
[17:59] HB9: My friend is moving, needs help packing
[18:00] TCU: sounds like a blast, sorry i can't make it
[18:00] HB9: No
[18:00] HB9: Sound like work
[18:00] HB9: *sounds..
[18:00] TCU: i know...we could be together instead :
[18:01] TCU: listening to some tunes and getting funky
[18:01] HB9: that would be much more fun
[18:01] TCU: way more!
[18:01] HB9: WAY...
[18:01] TCU: and wet
[18:01] HB9: **smile**
[18:02] TCU: 8=====D
[18:02] TCU: ( . ) ( . )
[18:02] HB9: ?
[18:02] TCU: don't you know what that is?
[18:03] HB9: tell me...
[18:03] TCU: my c@ck
[18:03] TCU: your tiits
[18:03] TCU: lol
[18:03] HB9: **smile****smile****smile** thank you professor
[18:04] TCU: you are welcome young lady
[18:04] TCU: we still have to talk about your grades
[18:04] HB9: I know I'll get an A
[18:05] TCU: only if you work hard--i don't dish out A's baby
[18:05] TCU: and do a lot of extra credit, A LOT!
[18:05] HB9: one on one tutoring?
[18:05] TCU: perhaps
[18:06] HB9: I got to run
[18:06] TCU: okay, check you later
[18:07] TCU: hey, get wet on your drive back okay?
[18:07] HB9: did you enjoy my call last night?
[18:07] TCU: i was surprised, thank you
[18:07] TCU: i like your voice
[18:07] HB9: Were you?
[18:08] TCU: that you wanted to prove it, and did it
[18:08] TCU: now i KNOW you are a women, lol
[18:08] TCU: *woman
[18:08] HB9: women?
[18:08] HB9: ok
[18:08] TCU: i can't keep my women straight sometimes **smile**
[18:08] HB9: **smile**
[18:09] TCU: (k) on you booty
[18:09] TCU: *your
[18:09] HB9: Kisses all over. Top that!
[18:10] TCU: i can't! you win!
[18:10] HB9: Rrrrrrrr......Ciao baby.
[18:10] TCU: ciao
[18:11] TCU: think naughty thoughts while you're schleping boxes around
[18:11] HB9: You know I will...
[18:11] TCU: k, i'll be on and off tonight. feel free
[18:11] HB9: OK
[18:12] TCU: (k)
[18:12] HB9: (K)(K)
[18:12] TCU: (k)
[18:12] TCU: we're even
[18:12] HB9: you are too cute
[18:13] TCU: you are too hot
[18:13] TCU: still on for friday? you know...talk about your grade?
[18:14] HB9: yes, looking forward to it **smile** **smile**
[18:14] TCU: as am i, you're cool **smile**
[18:14] TCU: talk later baby
[18:14] HB9: you're the cool one...Ciao professore!
[18:15] TCU: ciao sweetie
[18:15] *** "TCU" signed off at Wed Mar 30 18:15:17 2005.


--------

==============================================
CL AD--I GET VERY GOOD RESPONSES FROM THIS PARTICULAR ONE
==============================================

HEY, I KAN SPEL REELY GOOD TWO (PIC)

A Little Something About Me:
Let me see...I skip past the Safety & Warning pages in the instruction manuals. B O R I N G!!! I swim after I eat. I'm pretty sure I have a bunch of outstanding library fines. I run with scissors. I blaze my own trails, for I am a rebel. I ride at dawn.

I've built a nice consulting company--strategic finance, business advisory, and supercalifragilistic investment analytics. I teach business and corporate finance, MBA types, at a really big university. I have a lot of responsibilities, but I leave them at the doorstep whence I come home.

I do what I love and love what I do. Life is great, please don't drive my boner into the ground. Dig?

I joke around way too much sometimes and I'm quite a charming, easy going man, but with a sharp edge, and a keen sense of The Way. I wouldn't be where I'm at if I wasn't. Double-Dig, Grasshoppa?


The Rapid-Fire 20 FAQs You Want To Ask...
Q's: A Scam Artist? A Cheater? A D!ck? Debts? IRS Liens? Garnishments? Bad credit? Criminal record? DUI(s)? Institutionalized? Bi-Polar? Other mental issue(s)? Violent tendencies? Alcoholic? Drug Addict? Otherwise medicated? STD(s)? Psycho ex-girlfriends? Dangerous enemies? Is there a frozen head in your freezer?

A's: No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

I kan spel reelly good two, n kan formalate semi-conplex thoughs. I know how to treat a lady, in the bed and in the head. No wife, ex-wife, or kids that I know of.



A Little Something About You:
A FUN TWENTY SOMETHING gurly gurl who is smart, independent, charming, enthusiastic, secure, IN SHAPE...an extra few is okay, but if you don't care about your body, why should I? Good question, huh?

To Be Cont...you know the drill.

Don't be shy. Peace & Love.

==============================================



anyway, hope this helps...keep plugging away at that inner game.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by ogre
Define what 'clumsy' means to you.

I was planning for the date to go a certain way, that is, the plan was supposed to be to pick her up and go for a motorcycle ride, not to park the bike go to the local diner and talk about bullshyt. I brought a helmet, maps, warm clothes, all this extra gear. but instead she wanted to just go to a diner and talk..... in a talking date I feel that I am at a disadvantage since my convo skills are still lacking. and I think my loss of control of the situation quickly put me in the chump zone.

Perhaps I should walk away from a date if I can't control it, that is, I could say, look, this is what we agreed to do, so I'm gonna go ahead and do it without ya, see ya later..."

This tells me that you are in your personal 'zone' when things are predictable or when things go your way. That's acceptable and workable when no one else in involved. Understand that most women aren't that analycical and they live their lives in constant flux (ie drama).

Their existance is usually based on their emotions either doing something to create a particular emotion or doing something in reaction to that emotion. Basically, whatever you plan can end up changing on a whim. What women focus on is how you handle that change.

If you give in too often, you end up in the friend zone. If you force her to submit to your plans, you are labeled an @*******. So where is that middle zone?

On a first date, it's usually better to not plan a lot. Keep it simple and be dynamic in your attitude in that no matter what you do, you plan on having a good time. That having a good time is your nature no matter what you do or who you are with AND that you are priviledging her by allowing her to be along for the ride at that moment.

One other thing to consider, try not to focus so much effort on the activity. Face it, guys on a motorcycle are a dime a dozen, almost as bad as how many guys can take a woman out for dinner and a movie. Face it, d@mn near anyone can do it. What matters is what personality you can bring to the table. THEN the activities will just be icing on the cake.

Oh and another thing, I find that women who I personally deem worth my time appreciate my control over myself and not any attempts to control the situation. Think about it, do any of us truly have control over anything other than ourselves? How many times have you become p1ssed off because your attempt to control something external didn't work? Not wasting effort controlling other things is the key to appearing as a free spirit.

Describe in detail how a date in which you were 'smooth' would go.

that would be to engage in an action date doing something that I feel familiar, confident and comfortable in. this way I feel I am in my "element" and in control. that's why I want to go on motorcycle ride dates and not dinner dates. I think a dinner date would be fine only if it was a stop during our ride.

I love action dates but I've come to learn that first dates that are action dates can blow more often than now. For me, first dates are more of a feeling out/compatibility fact finding mission. Is this woman actually someone I would want to make the effort of taking on an action date?

Women also take this approach about first dates. This is where they size you up. This is where they notice whether or not you are easy going or uptight when things don't go your way. Understand though that it doesn't need to be a time for you to market yourself only, you should take this opportunity to find out if she is worth your time. Doc Love calls this QUALIFYING. This ability can save you tons of time, money and heartache.

One thing that I've noticed Ogre, is that you are putting a lot of effort in attempts to create an atmosphere you are comfortable in. Action dates as opposed to dates where conversation is necessary. Face it dude, it's not working for 'ya. It will be EXTREMELY beneficial for you build on the skills you are lacking as apposed to trying to avoid them. The great thing is that upon building these skills, you will look so much better in her eyes when you use them in situations where you are in your element. Let me know if you'd like examples.

- - - - -
Here is another personal ad on CL that lends some insight from a woman's point of view about what is and what ain't a good first date. it reflects the very things a lot of women feel. it could have (hypothetically) been written about me:

if i f*ck you on the first date....will you think i'm a slut, unworthy of your respect and a second date?

i'm just sick of the boring first dates with mindless small talk. somehow i always seem to find more interesting conversation with guys that I'm only hooking up with and then I think damn, why can't this be more? But of course it's the boring ass guys who are lousy f*cks who call me back.

I'm just tired of having to pretend to be a really nice girl for a few dates in order to find out what I want to really know about a guy.

I would say I am probably like the guy she describes as " boring first dates with mindless small talk" and ergo I would likely turn out to be "a lousy f*ck" ergo no chemistry/attraction/interest.

"i always seem to find more interesting conversation with guys that I'm only hooking up with"

translation: this chick is looking for a good f*ck. good convo skills mean good f*ck. good convo skills get the pu$$y.

Ergo, I need to keep my convo focused on getting the pu$$y. C+F, bust her chops, put her on the spot, twist everything she says into a joke to use against her. stay focused and don't lose track. All other topics, work, school, politics, whatever, are all nice things but will not get me a 2nd date, let alone any pu$$y.

It's not as simple as this woman just wanting a good lay. She wants to have a good time with an interesting guy that lays her well, CONSISTENTLY. She wants it all and why not, wouldn't you? Her problem is that she's only found good fvckbuddies that she seems to get bored with because there's nothing else to them. The guy that gives her that something else will have her hook, line and sinker.

Following on the fishing metaphor, women enjoy being drawn in and given a bit of line a few times before getting pulled completely in. This is the anticipation that many women long for because it can really effect her emotions.

In a nutshell, give them a little bit of something and pull back, give her a little more and pull back again, do it a couple of more times but not in a manner to make her angry. Each time she gets closer, enough to see the gold ring, however each time it is just barley out of reach. David dAngelo uses this method a lot. Doing this helps keep a woman interested in that she is never quite sure about what she's going to get from you.

Face it Ogre, you are going to make some adjustments in your perspective on how dating should progress and also work on your interpersonal skills. Your qualities will be more appreciated when you are able to connect with a woman by allowing her to feel comfortable around you.

Leil Lowndes has written several books on conversation skills that are very good. Her ability to show people how to be engaging in a fun and interesting way is very impressive. You can find her work on Amazon.com and also a bunch in used book stores since she's been writing on the subject for a very long time.

The only other thing that you should do is work on becoming being comfortable in everyday life situations. I understand that right now you are your best in specific situations however, you life involves many more random situations. Being charismatic, confident and willing in any situation will make you more attractive to women. Attractive enough that they will want to learn more about you, but of course it would be up to you whether you would want to see them again to find out just a little more about you.

 

[iveyleeger]

My take is that the action date is a good idea -- but make her earn it. Don't show up with the bike ready to go. Tell her to pick you up in her old junker. Make her drive you around town for awhile. Play it cool. Even let her think maybe you don't even *have* a bike -- just to lower the expectations.

Then when she clearly wants a ride, she is practically demanding it -- to see if you are for real -- consider it. Tell her your bike is very sensitive, and far more important than any random girl. You can't let just anyone hop on, etc. Finally relent.

This not only keeps you a challenge, it also lets her get comfortable with you before agreeing to go for a ride -- and it removes the opportunity for her to cut off your nads by changing the date.

Anyway, there are a million ho's on CL, try try again.

 

[ApocalypseCow2]

Francisco, thanks for that recommendation of Leil Lowndes. Browsing through the selection on Amazon, it looks like she's got some good stuff.

 

[iveyleeger]

I've actually met her in person. She is very good. Her seminar is a great place to meet women, too

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by ApocalypseCow2
Francisco, thanks for that recommendation of Leil Lowndes. Browsing through the selection on Amazon, it looks like she's got some good stuff.

You're welcome. I've read three of her books and have used her suggestions successfully in both my professional and private life. It's not a lot of regurgitated verbage either. She uses psychological research to back up her observations. It's worth looking into. Her work should be in your local library also.

 

[Francisco d'Anconia]

Originally posted by iveyleeger
I've actually met her in person. She is very good. Her seminar is a great place to meet women, too

I can only imagine going to one of her seminars. Practicing her observations on women who are practicing the same on you, oh the possibilities....