Ectomorph at 50 looking for tips.

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

Hey guys I have been doing some lurking here for the last few days and thought I would ask for some advise.

Background, sorry it is lenghty.
Basically I am pure 100% ectomorphic, 7.25" wrist measurement and a seriously hard gainer.
Long thin bones, little natural muscle, little fat, and barrel chested. My older bro used to threaten to kill me by poking his index finger through my chest and directly into my heart since it could be seen beating under my "pecs".

Graduated HS at 6'-6" , 160lbs. Ate like a horse, slept gobs. Total beanpole.
If you know a really skinny kid, I was skinnier. LOL

28 years old, 175lbs. 10 years of construction work, still eating like a horse and lots of sleep.

At 30 noticed I actually am starting to put on some fat! Probably 10% which for me was a lot. maybe 185lbs or so total body weight. So I start working out, still do construction work about 20 hours a week. Next to no gains, even though the guys I work out with are piling it on and I put far more effort into.
Little to no progress till I find the book Brawn by Stuart McRobert.
I was way overtraining, for me!

Cut back to training a body part only after it totally recovers.
Which for me will be 7-10 days for legs and 3-5 days for chest. Actually start making slow gains. Eventually at 36 years old I get up to 228lbs with 14% BF , measured hydrostatically.

Got tangled up in career, blah, blah, blah,, but still lift, but more trying to hang on to what I have rather than add any.
If I didn't I would be a 185lb guy with a small pot belly.

Cut to 50 years old, 212lbs guessing 16-18% BF. Shrunk an inch down to
6'-5". Started working out regularly 6 weeks ago.
I now am semi retired and so have lots of time to prepare food, take naps etc.

Anyway typically I only do the large compound exercises, squats, deadlifts, bench, pulldowns etc and only 3 exercises of 3 work sets per trip to the gym.
Chest one day.
Legs one day
Back one day.
Because I recover faster on chest, I might squeeze in those exercises 8 times a month and legs only 4.

Another issue is joint pain, it seems that low rep sets seriously inflame the ligaments or tendons at my joints. Enev when I was younger. It is not the actual joint or cartilage that hurts but where the muscle connects to the joint. Glucosamine doesn't remedy it. Certain exercises like bar curls or dips I will do fine at for 3 weeks and then get sharp painful inflamation that takes 8 weeks or longer to go away. So I have learned what not to do.
Low reps like less than 5 on bench press will also bring it on. So I typically do 8-12 on most exercises and have done the 20 squat before.
And progressively add weight or reps.

I now eat 7 meals/drinks a day and since I want to get my BF down to 12% or so. I am getting about 250g protein, 425g carbs and 55g fat a day.
Eggs, chicken, tuna, rice, whole wheat bread, potatos, lots of green veggies after 5pm and no starchy ones. One or two cheat meals a week tops.

I sleep 8 hrs a night, sometimes more and get a 1 hour nap everyday (don't be jealous).

I fast walk 40 minutes 5 days of the week, trying to get the fat off.

Any tips or suggestions for me?

 

[Night Owl]

Serious question - have you ever been tested for a under active thyroid gland?

Reading about your weight gain, sore joints, naps etc - these are possible signs of a thyroid problem. I would suggest you read this list on this website www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/long-and-pathetic/

See if you have any of the problems on the long list, if its over quarter of the list you could have a low thyroid problem. Basically if your not getting a enough iodine in your diet or the thyroid has been damage in the past it slows the body's metabolism down - like taking your foot of the gas peddle.

If you think you have you can see a doc or trying taking sea kelp and Vit B complex tablets to kick start the thyroid.

I am about the same age and had the same problems and didn't realise I had a under active thyroid until recently. Several months of taking sea kelp & Vit B I have lost three stone without being on a diet or lots of exercise. Now I have more energy than I did at 21, I could easily run a marathon (not that I am going to) no sore joints, no afternoon naps and much to my surprise a fantastic sex drive again

Read the list - you have nothing to loose and it might help

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

Thanks for the suggestion Night Owl. I looked at that list and believe very little applied to me, but I will bring it up to my doc next physical.
I had to laugh at the hair issues on the list. I have a full mop that grows like a weed.

Perhaps I should clarify also.
I don't need naps but can take them to hopefully increase growth hormone and speed recovery.
And my endurance is great for activities like hiking, cycling etc.. but does plummet quickly with heavy weight lifting.
Last my weight gain of 16-18% bodyfat at 50 while eating a healthy but not clean diet, limited training and exercise I don't think is unusual.
After all I am in the US, land of the overweight.

 

[EFFORT]

Any tips or suggestions for me?

To avoid the joint pain stay in the higher rep ranges anywhere from 10-50 depending on the exercise. What does your current routine look like?

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

OK, this is my typical routine, lifted from McRoberts book. Body split in 3 parts. Train that part only when all deep muscle soreness is gone.

Back/Shoulders: T Bar rows, Lat pulldown, Sitting dumbell press.

Chest/Triceps: Bench press, Incline barbell press, Close grip bench press with a curl bar.

Legs: Squats in a smith machine. I would prefer w/o the machine, but I dislocated both legs at the knees years ago (4 ligs torn on one side, 5 on the other) and need the mechanical stability especially with any weight.
Thigh slightly below parallel.
& Stiff leg deadlift.

So 2-3 warm up sets starting with a bare bar adding weight up to the work set.
3 work sets per exercise.
I start with 8, 8 & 8 reps at a fairly easy weight. Next time up it to 9, 9 & 9 etc till I complete 12, 12 & 12. Sometime if it was too easy I skip to 2 reps up.
After the 12 are completed, the next time I add 5-10 lbs and start back at the 8 ,8, & 8.

Eventually adding reps or weight it really gets hard and I will move only 1 or 2 of the reps up a notch. So 9, 10, 10.

Generally my 2nd set is easier than the 1st or last.

I rest about 2 minutes between sets.

Since I recover faster in my chest vs my legs I end up doing a lot more of chest than legs per cycle.

About 2.5 -3 months of this I peak out, and that is that. Take a week off, switch up the exercises and start it all again.

Also if I peak out on lets say bench press, I drop it and keep going with the other exercises where I haven't peaked.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

What no input?

Someone is holding out on me here.

 

[Celadus]

The health and fitness industry is a shame. Somewhere in the 80's there was a disconnect in workout routine theory due to pseudo scientific studies and "professional" trainers needing to rope clientale in.

Everything anyone needs is in Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding". Going with the thought above, there's a lot of misinformation and overanalysis of anatomy. Salesmenship and sport specific methods have warped common sense. The body hasn't changed in the last 100 years.

First, never use the term "hardgainer". It is derogatory to yourself and does not have a strong basis scientifically. It is a lack of the knowledge below. In situations like your joints aching it perpuates inferiority. Any inflamation and injury is related to postural problems (protracted shoulder, internally rotated knees, weak grip strength, etc).

Because of your height, you are going to need a longer barbell then what is available in a normal gym. I'm 6'1" and could use a few more inches. Additionally, as a construction worker you have to pay attention to how you perform your daily tasks. Improper hammer swinging, mouse clicking, etc. throw small auxiliary muscles like the brachialis and rotator cuff off that control your shoulder ball joint. If there is swelling, you will screw your shoulder up when you push yourself regulary. Posture is similar to a puzzle. Postural problems stack on each other. If you have one you will have many.

Go see a good physical therapist and follow a postural program for a couple of months. Always do more reps then the therapist tells you and use more momentum then you think you need. They are used to babying old people.

As far as routine and diet consider doing Arnold's original program with a diet with atleast 50% Protein / 30% Fat / 20% Carbs, and tweak the fat and carb intake.

The routine you are currently on is going to make you sore for longer then needed. Listening to your soreness leads to sporadic sessions.

I am currently following his first routine. Each exercise is done twice a week with a rep scheme of 15-10-6-6 (your reluctance to do low reps is related to postural-related pain). The first month can be tiresome, but if you have a barrel chest and decent shoulders it will definitely be your body adjusting to the exertion.

Overtraining, like hardgainer, is a figment of people's imagination. Men have worked in fields on a daily basis for centuries and grew stronger. Overtraining is a euphemism for not having learned to recognize that an "overall tired" feeling from lifting is almost always the result of one major section of muscles being taxed within that day; and, not learning to isolate the tension generated from each exercise in the apprioporate section of the muscle.(Greek mind body connection)

You will notice that there are two tricep exercises mentioned in the book (tricep extensions and pushdowns). This is the perfect scenario to learn what I mean above. The tricep pushdowns, when performed properly, will always emphaize the heads of the tricep and the extension works the bottom.

Sincerely,
Celadus

 

[EFFORT]

What no input?

Someone is holding out on me here.

You seem to have a good grasp on things. Is there something that isn't working?

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

Celadus

I appreciate you taking the time to respond and offer advise. I have read a bit here and elsewhere about the hardgainer/no hardgainer and overtraining/impossible to overtrain debates.
I think it make little sense to debate that further.

However, I can offer a lifetime of my personal observations about my ability of gain muscle and fat verses others.

Two examples.
Often I would work for 6 months to a year doing hard physical labor with a group of men about my same age, physical condition, some with similar body weights and muscle/fat ratios, although none were as lanky as me.
At the end of that 6 months most had put on 5-10 of muscle where I had put on none. Yet I ate far more calories, far more meals, far higher quality food, slept far more and didn't have any vices such as smoking and excessive drinking..
Also none of us were doing any weightlifting.

Another time I was a rural firefighter where all of us in our early 20s lived and worked at the station for 5 days on and 2 off for the entire fire season of 6-7 months.
Same scenerio, I ate 60-100% more than everyone lb for lb, slept more etc and gained next to zero.
I know what they ate because I watched it day after day.
I even stashed food on the trucks so I wouldn't miss a meal! No one else did that.
Yet they put on muscle after 6 months of the humping hills loaded down with fire hose, swinging shovels and axes.
I put on nothing. No fat, no muscle.

How is that possible if there is no such thing as a hardgainer???

My weightlifting experiences have provided more of the same.

Typical weight training programs have never worked for me.
There are several passages in McRoberts book about his experiences and failure following typical programs that are identical to my own experiences.

You wrote this which I don't understand, I guess since I don't have the book yet.
The routine you are currently on is going to make you sore for longer then needed. Listening to your soreness leads to sporadic sessions.
What about my routine is making me (muscle) sore?
Are you saying to ignore the soreness and work that muscle group?

thanks!!

You seem to have a good grasp on things. Is there something that isn't working?

Well it works but very slowly. If I am lucky I put on 1-1.5lbs a month of muscle, sometimes none. And that was when I was a lot younger.
Not sure what is going to happen at 50 while I am attempting to lose fat 1st, since this is the fattest I have ever been.

Also anything I can do to recover faster?
I already do lots of stretching of my sore muscles.

So I was hoping someone would offer some tips for someone with my .......challenges.

 

[JDiddy]

Just want to say im an ecto and have 7.25" wrists also, im also one of the stronger guys in my gym and guys who can deadlift 600-700lb are amazed at what i have acheived/can do in my very short time of training.

 

[EFFORT]

Well it works but very slowly. If I am lucky I put on 1-1.5lbs a month of muscle, sometimes none. And that was when I was a lot younger.
Not sure what is going to happen at 50 while I am attempting to lose fat 1st, since this is the fattest I have ever been.

Also anything I can do to recover faster?
I already do lots of stretching of my sore muscles.

So I was hoping someone would offer some tips for someone with my .......challenges.

Given what you said it sounds like you have some low test levels and there probably way lower now. The first thing I'd do is have a doc check them out. If they are low you'll get some "hormone therapy" and you'll do a lot better on the routine and diet you have.

If they don't come out low then something is off with your diet and training (most likely a diet problem)

So post your diet up, very detailed down to each food choice, weight of each food (using a digital scale) , time of each meal, for each unique day of the week ....since everyday isn't going to be exactly the same for most people in this world with the way life is. Also include your pre, during, post workout nutrition regimen. If you aren't able to quickly open up a doc file and copy and paste over a very detailed diet in the way i described your definitely missing out on progress for not having a diet thats as good as it could be.

This goes for anyone else reading as well, if you don't have a really detailed diet you are missing out on potential progress, it doesn't mean you won't get any, but you are losing some if not a lot or you'll reach a point where you'll probably have to come back and do it (when you want a six pack, when you realize you've gain mainly fat, when your strength gains stop, etc) so its best to get started on it first. It still boggles my mind how much time people are spending on creating a very detailed lifting routine, and spending a quick 10min to throw a diet together. Just something to think about.

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

So post your diet up, very detailed down to each food choice, weight of each food (using a digital scale) , time of each meal, for each unique day of the week ....since everyday isn't going to be exactly the same for most people in this world with the way life is. Also include your pre, during, post workout nutrition regimen. If you aren't able to quickly open up a doc file and copy and paste over a very detailed diet in the way i described your definitely missing out on progress for not having a diet thats as good as it could be.

No Doc file, old school written by hand.
All are measured with a scale.
This is my losing the fat, hold on or hopefully add to the muscle diet derived from the sticky at the top of the forums.

7:15 get up

1) 7:30 Banana, two green tea caps, big glass water. 1P/31C/0F
and off for my 40 minute fast walk.

2) 8:30 6 egg, toss 2 yokes omelete, 1 oz cheese, 2 slices whole grain bread, smear of Smart Balance Light 52P/41C/39F
Also, multi vitamin, 1200mg fish oil cap, 1000IU vit E, 500mg vit C, 1 DHEA tab

3) 10:30 8oz baked skinless chicken breast and 1/2 cup (measured uncooked) organic brown rice with Mrs Dash 56P/64C/5F
2 more green tea caps

11:30 work out, 50 minutes max, nothing but water.

4) Right after work out (in the car) about 12:30 Protein drink, EAS whey, rolled oats & oat bran 35P/41C/6F

5) 1:30 Tuna sandwich, can of tuna in water, smear of light mayo, 2 slices of whole grain bread, 4oz fresh broccoli & cauliflower 37P/43C/10F

Typically nap time, till I wake up, usually about 1 hour.

6) 4:30 8oz skinless chicken breast with frozen veggies mix of Broc/Cauli/Carrots & Mrs Dash & drizzle of olive oil. 54P/18C/14F

7) 6:30 Tuna, frozen veggies and Mrs Dash 30P/18C/2F

8) 9:30 100g low fat cottage cheese 14P/5C/3F

11:00 Sleep

Total 279P/261C/79F my goal was 250P/425C/55F, so you can see I am a bit off on the ratios.
Those bulky veggies kill my carb numbers!
And the fat is a bit high.

Variations
Meal 2, I delete the bread and add in 4 oz of fresh chopped broc & cauli into the omelete. 36P/9C/20F
Meal 2, Every other day I cut out the cheese in the omelete and lower the fat 9g. When that cheese loaf is gone, no more. LOL
Meal 3, I swap in 2 medium red potatos for the rice. Red potatos with a drizzle of olive oil & balsamic vinegar. 58P/68C/10F
Meal 4 Drop the veggies and sub in rice, Tuna & brown rice 32P/64C/3F


I did this for about 4 weeks and noticed my weight basically unchanged and no noticable losing of bodyfat.
So for the last week or so I have reduced the above diet by about 25% on non workout days, which for me is usually every other day and added another 30 min fast evening walk on non-W O days. It seems to be working, for the 1st time I dropped 3 cm on my abdominal fat pinch.
I only dug out the calipers 3 weeks ago though.
Currently A 3 point BF measurement is 18%, so I must have started more like 20% instead of the 16-18% I guessed.

To clarify, I haven't done physical labor for a job in 15 years, I evolved/deterirated into a pencil pusher. So I do no real physical exercise today other than the mentioned weightlifting and walking.

As far as a testosterone test, I will put that on the list, but you know Doctors and appointments.
I saw that low sex drive and erection issues are sometimes associated with low testosterone, gladly I don't have any of those symptoms.
But I will pursue it.

 

[EFFORT]

No Doc file, old school written by hand.
All are measured with a scale.
This is my losing the fat, hold on or hopefully add to the muscle diet derived from the sticky at the top of the forums.

7:15 get up

1) 7:30 Banana, two green tea caps, big glass water. 1P/31C/0F
and off for my 40 minute fast walk. drop this meal here. Pop 2 of these pills http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=25&pid=6935 then go do your 40min fast walk and make sure to drink a lot of water

2) 8:30 6 egg, toss 2 yokes omelete, 1 oz cheese, 2 slices whole grain bread, smear of Smart Balance Light 52P/41C/39F
Also, multi vitamin, 1200mg fish oil cap, 1000IU vit E, 500mg vit C, 1 DHEA tab remove the cheese, remove the whole grain bread and smart balance light, add 3/4th cup oats. (just plain oats not prepackaged oatmeal) Blend the oats in water and drink it down, you can add a scoop of whey for flavor.

3) 10:30 8oz baked skinless chicken breast and 1/2 cup (measured uncooked) organic brown rice with Mrs Dash 56P/64C/5F
2 more green tea caps good meal

11:30 work out, 50 minutes max, nothing but water.

4) Right after work out (in the car) about 12:30 Protein drink, EAS whey, rolled oats & oat bran 35P/41C/6F have 65g maltodex right after the workout followed by 2 scoops of whey

5) 1:30 Tuna sandwich, can of tuna in water, smear of light mayo, 2 slices of whole grain bread, 4oz fresh broccoli & cauliflower 37P/43C/10F have a can of tuna and 1/2 cup brown rice drop the sandwich, bread, mayo, keep the veggies but eat them after the meal so you don't fill up on those first.

Typically nap time, till I wake up, usually about 1 hour.

6) 4:30 8oz skinless chicken breast with frozen veggies mix of Broc/Cauli/Carrots & Mrs Dash & drizzle of olive oil. 54P/18C/14F

good

7) 6:30 Tuna, frozen veggies and Mrs Dash 30P/18C/2F

good

8) 9:30 100g low fat cottage cheese 14P/5C/3F

add a can of tuna here


11:00 Sleep

Total 279P/261C/79F my goal was 250P/425C/55F, so you can see I am a bit off on the ratios.
Those bulky veggies kill my carb numbers!
And the fat is a bit high.

Check bold i just made some changes going along with the diet you have. It still has a lot of room for improvement but i'd have to rewrite the entire diet and have you answer a lot of questions to really make it customized for you and that takes a long time. You should def see some improvements with the changes though. Stick to it for the next 2 weeks and see what happens.

Make sure to do your cardio 5days a week. I'd recommend doing 30min on the elliptical at a moderate pace.

You can post up your exact lifting routine as well to see if there's stuff off. Based on the diet you posted diet is whats been holding you back for sure even when you were younger and still the low test can still be in the equation too.

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

Thanks EFFORT, that is what I was looking for!

I will implement those changes today and post up my WO routine later.

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

OK here is my current WO. I have been on this routine for about 5 weeks and think that I can go another 4 plus weeks of progression before I peak out.
I train usually every other day.
The starting weights were fairly easy.
Legs, off, chest, off, back, off, chest, off, legs, off, back, off, ..... repeat.
As noted in my 1st post my legs take about 6 days or longer for the deep muscle soreness to go away.
I do 3 sets of 8,8,8 upping it to 12,12,12 and then add weight and start back at 8,8,8. Except as noted.

Legs
Squats on Smith machine, warm up and work up to 1 set at 12 @80lbs plus whatever the bar is, and 1 set of 22@80lbs currently. I will ad 10lbs the next time do 1@12 and hopefully 1@15 next time. Currently this weight is difficult. Very close to failure.
Started at the cycle at 1 @ 12 & 1 @ 15 at 50lbs.

Stiff leg deadlifts. Currently 3@12 reps at 70lbs plus the bar, moderate.
Started at 3@8reps 50lbs plus bar.

Leg extensions. 3@12 at 80lbs, still fairly easy.

Chest
Bench Press. Currently 3@10 at 80lbs plus bar. Difficult.
Started out at 50lbs plus bar.

Incline dumbell press. Currently 10,10,9@40lbs. Failure to get to 10 on the last set. Ran out of energy and actually got hungry even though I ate 45min before.
Started out at 8,8,8@30lbs.

Triceps overhead cable extension. 10,10,12@70lbs, was somewhat easy so I added a couple on the last set.
Started out at 50lbs.

Back
Cable rows. Currently 10,10,14@120lbs. Still somewhat easy.
Started out at 100lbs.

Wide grip pulldowns. Currently 12,12,12@105lbs. Difficult.
Started at 85lbs.

Close grip pulldowns. Currently 10,10,14@105lbs. Fairly easy will up the weight next time.
Started out at 95lbs.

Seated shoulder dumbell press. 12,12,12@30lbs. Difficult. I will run this up to 3 sets of 15 before increasing the weight.
Started out at 25lbs. By the time I get to this my 4th exercise my strength is fading fast.

My current weight is 210lbs and abdominal BF measurement has dropped from 40mm to 34mm in about 10 days. Using a 3 point BF measurement, currently 17.6% BF.

 

[Ecto@Quinquaginta]

Update 4/1/2010 in bold.

Legs
Squats on Smith machine, warm up and work up to 1 set at 12 @80lbs plus whatever the bar is, and 1 set of 22@80lbs currently. I will add 10lbs the next time do 1@12 and hopefully 1@15 next time. Currently this weight is difficult. Very close to failure.
Started at the cycle at 1 @ 12 & 1 @ 15 at 50lbs.
4/1 1@12 & 1@16 at 90lbs

Stiff leg deadlifts. Currently 3@12 reps at 70lbs plus the bar, moderate.
Started at 3@8reps 50lbs plus bar.
4/1 3@9 at 90lbs plus bar

Leg extensions. 3@12 at 80lbs, still fairly easy.
4/1 3@12 at 100lbs

Chest
Bench Press. Currently 3@10 at 80lbs plus bar. Difficult.
Started out at 50lbs plus bar.
4/1 2@8 & 1@11 at 90lbs plus bar

Incline dumbell press. Currently 10,10,9@40lbs. Failure to get to 10 on the last set. Ran out of energy and actually got hungry even though I ate 45min before.
Started out at 8,8,8@30lbs.
4/1 3@8 at 45lbs

Triceps overhead cable extension. 10,10,12@70lbs, was somewhat easy so I added a couple on the last set.
Started out at 50lbs.
4/1 3@12 at 100lbs

Back
Cable rows. Currently 10,10,14@120lbs. Still somewhat easy.
Started out at 100lbs.
4/1 3@12 at 120lbs

Wide grip pulldowns. Currently 12,12,12@105lbs. Difficult.
Started at 85lbs.
4/1 3@9 at 120lbs

Close grip chinups. Currently 10,10,14@105lbs. Fairly easy will up the weight next time.
Started out at 95lbs.
4/1 2@9 & 1@15 at 120lbs, still a bit too easy

Seated shoulder dumbell press. 12,12,12@30lbs. Difficult. I will run this up to 3 sets of 15 before increasing the weight.
Started out at 25lbs. By the time I get to this my 4th exercise my strength is fading fast.
4/1 3@14 at 30lbs

My current weight is 210lbs and abdominal BF measurement has dropped from 40mm to 34mm in about 10 days. Using a 3 point BF measurement, currently 17.6% BF.

4/1 Weight is 211lbs and abdominal BF measurement has dropped to 30mm. Using a 3 point BF measurement, currently 15.5% BF.

Added the 30 minutes of cardio on an eliptical 5 days a week per EFFORT's suggestion.
The machine says (for what it is worth), that is 375-425 calories and a 84-88% of max heart rate.

Still do the 40 minutes of fast walk 5 times a week, 1st thing in the AM on a empty stomach.

So in about the 2 1/2 weeks since I adopted EFFORT's diet & cardio suggestions, I have lost 4lbs fat and gained 5lbs muscle, more or less.