Christians - Why Did God Create Satan?

[Fatal Jay]

^
great answer bro

 

[Eph]

The answer is simple: balance. You can't know good, without knowing evil. If you've never seen someone do something wrong, how do you know what you're doing is right? I believe somewhere it says, after humanity's fall from grace, a deal was made. The deal was to see how many would end up in Hell vs Heaven (or something along those lines).

Its easy to ask why does God allow evil to exist. He has a reason for it. The consequence of allowing Satan to exist meant Humanity would fall. This in itself is an action. Every action causes a reaction. So what is the reaction? Why is allowing evil to exist justified? To show us the errors of our ways. Allowing evil to exist allows us as humans to continue to evolve (spiritually and morally). It is the bad in life that makes us grow. For example, most of us on this site are here for a variety of reasons: bad breakup, bad with women, etc. The good that came from it, isn't that we are now (or becoming) good with women. Its the fact that we won't allow ourselves to be disrespected, put down, taken advantage of, etc.

If everything in life was perfect, what would there be for us to learn?

 

[BraddH]

In the end, god is not!

 

[Fatal Jay]

In the end, god is not!

If you can honestly go outside and see how animals have order, how the stars,sun, and moon have order, how nature has order, see how your body still works like a machine while you asleep and still say there is not a God.

Then you sir are a true fool. You can't tell me we all came from some big boom or accident. The human body alone is too complex.

 

[Eph]

He doesn't have the same petty, self-serving jealousy that we humans display. He states He is a jealous God within the context of not accepting idolatry (his creatures making up their own, imaginary god).

Mankind naturally dislikes answering to a higher moral authority and therefore, in order to assuage their guilt, they make up imaginary gods that make them feel good. "gods" carved out of wood are just as insulting to God as "gods" carved out of men's imaginations.

Therefore He declares that He is a jealous God, not putting up with idolatry.

Jealousy is jealousy. He does not like His creatures worshiping false idols any more than (for example) men like playing second fiddle. In any case, my point still stands: He is not perfect. It is a sin for us as humans to be jealous or envious of others, but He Himself has claimed to be a jealous God. Any way you look at it, jealousy is still jealousy, regardless of if He doesn't share the same "petty, self-serving" jealousy that we do.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Atom Smasher

If you believe that God is not all-loving, my original question becomes invalid. Because if he doesn't care about all human beings equally, then it makes sense that he'd have no reason not to create Lucifer.

Danger

You wanting my opinion on it so that you can further debate shows that you are not looking for knowledge, but moreso looking to debate.

Exactly. I've made that clear several times.

However, knowledge can come from understanding what people believe and why they believe it. That's what I like about debate. It's not necessarily the knowledge gained from discovering facts concerning the topic being discussed, but learning about how people approach it and respond.

You suggest using an unknown as a refutation to an argument is a cop-out. I say using the unknown to refute an argument is only a cop-out if one side is looking for an argument.

This is a discussion/debate with people who believe in the Bible and those who do not. Therefore, do not both sides have an argument? And if so, doesn't that, by your own admission, still make it a cop-out?

Like it or not, you have to recognize that your entire argument rests on the premise that God's number one goal is for humans to be perfectly happy with no problems whatsoever. You then use this assumption in an attempt to disprove God. That is one very large assumption for you to make.

I gave you a reasonable answer. Your argument is based on the presumption you know what God wants......I point this out and then you in turn want me to give a presumption based on no evidence whatsoever.

Instead of trying to disprove God (which we simply cannot do), I recommend you use this information to say "If there is a God, what is he trying to accomplish".

I realize that my original question rests on the premise that God's number one goal is to satisfy humanity. That's what I meant by all-loving. I even stated this in the OP, that I assumed God is all-loving and all-knowing, and that if anyone disagrees with this to bring it up... because it invalidates the question.

I didn't make that connection earlier.

Yet according to Christians, isn't the Bible viewed as evidence? Isn't that where your beliefs come from? So how can you say there's no evidence? Or are you just refusing to use it because you know that agnostic/atheists don't share in its validity?

Finally, you suggested I ask: "What is God trying to accomplish?"

But according to your reasoning, isn't that generally the same as asking: What is God's primary goal?

Or at least the same evidence or lack of evidence is required to draw up an answer?

Please clarify.

But like I mentioned above, if you don't believe God is all-loving -- or that humanity's best interests are not a priority for him -- my original question is invalid. And there's nowhere left for this discussion to go.

Darth

I don't see how God being out of time and space changes the structure of logic.

Aside from introducing the unknown, the other cop-out I dislike is "we're not intelligent enough to understand God's reasoning." Isn't that essentially what you're saying? We're not sophisticated enough to comprehend God's motives because he's more evolved than us.

The reason I say this argument is invalid is because logic can't change. If it is changed, it's no longer logic. Instead it becomes illogical by the very definition of logic and rationality.

To say we cannot understand God's motives, but then when we inspect them logically and are forced to conclude that they are illogical, doesn't that make them irrational?

For example, God wanted to free the Israelites from bondage in Egypt. But the Bible states that is was him who hardened Pharaoh's heart, causing him to refuse God's demands time and time again.

How can anyone claim that we aren't equipped to comprehend his motives when by the definition of logic, his decisions and behavior are irrational and contradictory?

It's like in order to reconcile God's choices we have to abandon reason and logic in an attempt to get closer at making sense of it. Isn't that strange?

Warrior74

I agree with you.

In fact, I would take it a step further, and say you can't tell a proper story -- and have it endure and be passed through the generations -- unless it also has a strong antagonist, who raises the stakes HIGH. And, well, the concept of Hell and the possibility of eternal torment is raising the stakes about as high as it's possible to take them in a story!

However, directly proclaiming a disbelief in the Bible isn't the point of this thread. It's to discuss theology by viewing it through a Christian perspective, and then apply logic to that perspective.

taiyuu_otoko

How can you claim there's no concrete definition of love, when the Bible has many passages defining it? Many of which I agree with.

Certainly you're familiar with "Love is patient. Love is kind." etc. Or "There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends." That's fairly concrete. Do you disagree with Jesus?

Wouldn't you agree that these a pretty good, concrete definition of love? I would.

You can go round and round for days, thinking you've "won" because the other side hasn't "proven" their point.

Who said the point was to "win". Debate is like a game. Sure, some play games to win. But others play for enjoyment and the fun of it.

How do you know I'm not carrying on with this thread because I enjoy debating and find it to be a good exercise of reason in forming arguments?

Fatal Jay

Forcing someone to do something is not love.

But casting people into Hell to be tormented forever, because they rejected God, is love?

Isn't that like a parent throwing their kid into a cage in the basement for the remainder of their life, poking them with a burning hot iron whenever possible and feeding them oats and water just because the kid didn't love the parent?

Would you call that love?

Sure, a person can make the claim of discipline. But certainly there's a difference between punishment for the purpose of correction versus unrelenting vindictiveness aroused by personal insecurities.

Eph

Allowing evil to exist allows us as humans to continue to evolve (spiritually and morally). It is the bad in life that makes us grow. For example, most of us on this site are here for a variety of reasons: bad breakup, bad with women, etc. The good that came from it, isn't that we are now (or becoming) good with women. Its the fact that we won't allow ourselves to be disrespected, put down, taken advantage of, etc.

Isn't that like saying the reason the mechanic destroyed his car was so that he could fix it?

It's irrational. The motive doesn't logically match the results and their consequent actions. Who breaks something (or allows it to happen) just to fix it? Unless of course we're dealing with someone who has too much time on their hands and is bored, like samspade mentioned.

A person can claim learning. But what's the point of learning something that's unnecessary? Who learns to fly a plane knowing full well they will never enter a ****pit again?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

It looks like this thread actually died out without being locked. Not bad. Perhaps I'll revive it and see what happens.

The first rules we have to understand about God, whether we believe in him or not, is to know that it is impossible to prove or disprove God. That is why it is called "faith".

Keep in mind: I'm taking about the Christian God here, Yahweh. And logically speaking, basing my arguments on the Bible, I think it is possible to disprove his existence... or at best, prove that he is hypocritical and irrational. But isn't that proof for his non-existence? That he doesn't make sense? If he's a supreme being, why does he act like an infant a lot of the time when the average person would know better?

But I agree with you. If there is a god or creator, it's impossible to prove or disprove its existence -- at least at this time. Things could change in the future though; either divine intervention with the entire population of the world as its witness or concrete evidence as to how the universe actually started (if it indeed had a beginning).

Often enough humans cannot even tell what other humans want, why would we be any more successful and saying what God wants?

Again, we're basing these arguments off of the depiction of Yahweh in the Bible, not "the" actual God or creator, if there is one. And reading the Bible, it seems pretty clear that Yahweh implies he wants what's best for humanity.

The best evidence we have is in looking around us to see what is going on in the world, with the Bible being an addition to our reasoning. We must judge God's desires much like we judge women, first look at reality, and then read the book. But in the end, we have to know that we can neither prove nor disprove God.

That's probably the thing that turned me off Christianity years ago. The character of Yahweh does not match up to the intelligence level one would expect from a supreme being. In fact, his actions demonstrate that he's not very bright, less bright, in fact, than an average human. Thus, this thread.

Isn't that proof of Yahweh's non-existence? How can a normal human be more intelligent or understanding than a supposedly all-knowing god? How can the created be brighter than the creator, when we can't even create life ourselves?

Doesn't that indicate that Yahweh is the creation of ancient men lacking in understanding?

 

[Warrior74]

It looks like this thread actually died out without being locked. Not bad. Perhaps I'll revive it and see what happens.


Keep in mind: I'm taking about the Christian God here, Yahweh. And logically speaking, basing my arguments on the Bible, I think it is possible to disprove his existence... or at best, prove that he is hypocritical and irrational. But isn't that proof for his non-existence? That he doesn't make sense? If he's a supreme being, why does he act like an infant a lot of the time when the average person would know better?

But I agree with you. If there is a god or creator, it's impossible to prove or disprove its existence -- at least at this time. Things could change in the future though; either divine intervention with the entire population of the world as its witness or concrete evidence as to how the universe actually started (if it indeed had a beginning).


Again, we're basing these arguments off of the depiction of Yahweh in the Bible, not "the" actual God or creator, if there is one. And reading the Bible, it seems pretty clear that Yahweh implies he wants what's best for humanity.


That's probably the thing that turned me off Christianity years ago. The character of Yahweh does not match up to the intelligence level one would expect from a supreme being. In fact, his actions demonstrate that he's not very bright, less bright, in fact, than an average human. Thus, this thread.

Isn't that proof of Yahweh's non-existence? How can a normal human be more intelligent or understanding than a supposedly all-knowing god? How can the created be brighter than the creator, when we can't even create life ourselves?

Doesn't that indicate that Yahweh is the creation of ancient men lacking in understanding?

Religion and politics are the final red pill. Most people WILL NOT swallow that one.

Amazing that miracles stopped happening after photography and film and UFO sightings dropped after every one stopped having a cell phone on their hip. The fact is, if there is a creator, we cannot understand it. We would have to look to science and technology to receive universal understanding of our universe, it's creation and our place in it.

Every religious person knows deep down that it's a possibility they have invested in BS. The same way the AFC invest in terrible mating schema but still sticks to his guns about being NICE and finding the ONE. It's a myth that's hard to shake.

The thing that started to wake me up was when I had the realization at 12 that the Greek and Roman Mythology was not mythology. It was religion. They totally believed in their 'gods' the same way people now believe in allah, buddha, and Yahweh. Thor was a real god. With worshippers and followers ages before christ. Ahura Mazda and Zoroastrianism was a great forerunner to christianity. The egyptians were as fervent as modern man is now about his deity. At the end of the day there is no evidence or proof. It is man who makes gods, not gods that make man. I would imagine the true creator of the universe would be the equivalent of a programmer on the SIMS. We are probably just a few lines of code he wrote and he's moved on to the next job. There is a strong theory that this universe is a holographic simulation.

It may be impossible to be in the universe and understand the universe at the same time. But I tell you this, I place no more weight in the christian god than I do Marduk. And if you don't know who Marduk is and all you know of religion is christianity, you should probably start studying ancient religions and what people all over the globe have believed. The more you read, the more you will see a pattern and the more you will swallow the red pill of religion. Eventually you will learn that most popular religions have a few things in common. Things that from a biomechanics standpoint can apply to any tribe of mammals that have intelligent though. Basically, "don't be dyck to people in your tribe". But you will find little reason to believe one set of beliefs is better than any other besides your own indoctrinated bias. Remove that bias you will see clearly. Remember, 90% of why you believe what you believe is Geography. If you were born in the middle east or north african what would you be? If born in China or India, what would you be? These sort of questions scare the **** out of modern christians which is why they hate those who don't believe. It's the same way AFCs hate Alphas.

 

[DoubleBarrel]

Atom Smasher

I just re-read your last post and, though it's not on the original topic, I thought I'd bring it up anyway...

If Yahweh does not love everyone, how do you know he loves you? Or even me? And if he hates me, is there even a point to choosing him?

We can present the argument that God loves or hates according to our deeds, but does that really hold up when God supposedly loved Jacob and hated Esau? I mean, Jacob was the guy who deceived his own father and stole his brother's inheritance.

If God is more moral than me, why do I feel a seemingly natural dislike for Jacob and sympathy for Esau? Am I wrong? Is it right to do what Jacob did because he was favored?

This would imply being loved by God has nothing to do with being a good person and doing the right thing.

Also, isn't hatred a sin? How can a supposedly moral god be guilty of perhaps the greatest sin. That is, if Jesus was right when he said, "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer."

Isn't murder often seen as the worst crime?

Or is God exempt from following his own teachings?

Amazing that miracles stopped happening after photography and film and UFO sightings dropped after every one [started] having a cell phone on their hip.

Because of this, I sometimes wonder if the remaining religions will be the last ones. With technology today, it's much more difficult to fabricate stories. Inventing stories about men walking around performing miracles or a man flying up to heaven on a winged horse would never fly today.

 

[Atom Smasher]

DB, good questions.

Let me first quote this short article by a guy named Wayne Blank, who articulates it pretty well:

"There are six things which The Lord hates, seven which are an abomination to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19 RSV)

There are some who believe that "God loves everyone," or that "God forgives everyone," and there is truth in those two statements if one completes them i.e. "God loves everyone who obeys Him," and "God forgives everyone who repents." God's love and forgiveness are conditional upon the choice that everyone ultimately makes for themselves. The principle that was explained to the physical Israelites applies ultimately to spiritual Israelites:

"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the Commandments [see The Ten Commandments and The Ten Commandments Now?] of The Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving The Lord your God, by walking in His ways, and by keeping His Commandments and His statutes and His ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and The Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it."

"But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live" (Deuteronomy 30:15-19 RSV)

Those who believe that they will enter the Kingdom of God without genuine repentance and literal obedience to God are going to be disappointed:

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing My recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood." (Revelation 22:11-15 RSV)
__________________________________________________

God knows and understand the truly repentant heart. He who is forgiven by God is NOT sinless, and will still make mistakes and have occasional lapses in judgment. However, that person recognizes that his motives are offensive to God, and that He needs a savior in order to pay the price for his sin ("The wages of sin is death").

God knew Jacob and Essau's innermost hearts, and knew which one was truly repentant and which was not.

Jesus actually said, "Anyone who hates his brother without cause is a murderer."

Man's hatred is always self-serving, while God's hatred is based upon His own principle of justice and righteousness, and therefore His hatred of that which is against good is perfectly justified.

You wrote:
"This would imply being loved by God has nothing to do with being a good person and doing the right thing."

Being loved by God has everything to do with repentance and a contrite spirit before Him. He said that such a person He will not turn away. Man's great sin against God is that he (mankind) insists on declaring that which is right and wrong, instead of submitting to God and allowing God to define right and wrong.

What may "FEEL" like a good thing to a man is most often a self-serving act. For man, there is always a personal payoff to a good act. When you think about it, any "good" act performed while rejecting God (the very essence and Author of goodness) is an insult to Him.

It's like a kid who lives his life showing his parents the hand, disobeying right & left, doing whatever he wants, and then at school he gives a dollar to a kid who forgot his money that day. The disobedient kid says, "Look how I've honored my parents today."

 

[Jair213]

bpd's are the proof of satans existence

 

[99absolute]

i suppose everything has a cost.God created satan and likewise humans with a cost.Maybe He knew that all will not obey him.This must be the cost of freewill.Satan was told to repent in the first place but he repented not.

 

[Fatal Jay]

I think the greatest love is to give your creation free will, and not make them a slave to you

that's why we have satan, he followed his own will

 

[Driggs]

The fact is, there is no evidence whatsoever for any god or devil or any paranormal being. Not a shred has ever been provided despite thousands of years of trying.

The bible is not evidence for the existence of these claimed beings. The bible is the claim. Evidence supporting the claim needs to be provided before the claim can be believed by rational people.

MOREOVER: Before Jehovah (Yahweh) was retooled into the creator god of the Israelite religion, Yahweh was featured in the pagan pantheon of the Canaanites.

Yahweh was a war god. Just one of a number of gods, not the creator. He was the husband of Asherah. In the Canaanite fairy tale, you understand. Not in reality, because there is no Asherah and there is no Enki and there is no Canaanite war god named Jehovah.

He was also one of the gods of the Moabites, associated with Chemosh who was a fish god: "Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites whose name most likely meant "destroyer," "subduer," or "fish god."

When christians pray to their god, they are in fact praying to the war god of the Canaanites.

Christianity is just a pagan cult. The bible is full of crazy theological claims, and christians can offer no shred of proof for any of them.

 

[99absolute]

According to the Bible that which is born of bad seed is bad and that which is of good is good.This points to the final state of men.Even the holiest are doubtful about their final state(as long as they live).But only God have true freewill or just will.We can only choose to obey(Heaven) or rebel(Hell) .

 

[Epimanes]

Wayyyyy back in the early days of Isreal. There was a place within the tabernacle called the holy of holies. It was of the inner most part of the temple where only the priest could enter. Once a year the priest made an offering to god (before jesus's time) and if the priest was unpure. God would strike him down in there. It got so nad infact that they tied ropes to the priest because no one could go in for fear of the same thing to happen to them. Many times the priests would get struck down and they would have to pull them out via the rope. Look it up .. No lie. Then god sent jesus because he was upset no one was "good enough" to make it to heaven so god allowed jesus to die at the hands of men so god could experience the temptations of man in human form to get a better understanding of the predicament. Of course this doesn't happen anymore. Once jesus came of age and was tempted many times and proved himself to be sinless.. He was handed over to the people to be killed. God is real.. People just don't want him around anymore unless they are in dire need or about to die etc. So god being the good fella he is, sits in silence because the majority of the world doesn't want him around. That's free will for ya.

Now.. I don't believe in one particular religion.. But I think all religions are the same just interpreted differently and in turn cause wars of "diffference" and seperation of man kind because of these different denomonations and culterable backgrounds of different people. To me its all the same. But its real.

Just my 2 cents to add here.

 

[Driggs]

Got any hard evidence supporting any of that?

 

[DoubleBarrel]

None of these recent responses answered the original question.

Again, we see the "God created Satan because beings have free will" reason, which doesn't even make sense!

I think what's meant to be implied is that Satan "fell" because he had free will and chose to rebel against God.

But that's just it: If God knew he would rebel, why did God create Lucifer, knowing it would cause the rest of his creation to also go astray?

By NOT creating Satan, mankind presumably wouldn't have rejected God; therefore, it would have been a good thing.

But he created Lucifer anyway, knowing he would rebel and lead the world astray.

If God is all-knowing and all-loving (which most Christians believe), he should not and would not have created Lucifer.

Can anyone explain this?

 

[Fatal Jay]

You are not God. I am not you, why do I need to ask about things you do when I am not you.

Satan revolting against God plays a big picture with his plan of salvation. Questioning God is pointless, he knows what he is doing.

Mankind is wicked without satan. Satan is not like God, he can't be every where at once, therefore humans don't need satan to sin or do evil.

Satan tempted eve, but guess what, eve had free will to choose God or Satan.

Everyday a human being has a choice to do bad or good. Some people choose to apply for a job to make money, others choose to rob a store to get money.

People who really read the bible also know God is not all loving, he DEPISES sinners. He loves those who respect his word and obey his wills. God does not love everyone on this earth, that is truly false teaching that's been in the church by people who have change the words of the bible.

 

[Driggs]

Where's that hard evidence again? All I see is grown men talking about ghosties and goblins like they believe that crap. Where's the proof?