Chick withholding sex- need some perspective

[Mr.Positive]

Str8up, I agree with you on this. I think you did the right thing, cut right through the BS.

You have every right to try and pursue sex with any chick that willingly sleeps over at your place.

For her to "lay down the law" of no sex, means she can prance around half naked in your home...and be a total attention tease without any guilt what so ever on her part....because you both agreed to the no-sex rule.

Bottom line, this gal wants attention, and total control of the frame.

She probably feels hurt and unwanted from her last relationship, and wants you to shower her with attention, without any reward.

Too much drama, I wouldn't waste any more time on this one if I were you.

 

[KarmaSutra]

A voice of reason and no manipulation or negotiation tactics involved.

Bullsh!tting is bullsh!tting. You can't get a little bit pregnant.

 

[guru1000]

This is pure manipulation. No excuse for it. Why would STR8UP stoop to manipulating this broad to sleep with him? Is the pvssy that sacred that succumbing a woman to trickery be deemed nobility? It's a means to an end and doesn't make him a better, more astute, man in the aftermath. What is she going to think of him as a man when she gets cluttered up with his nutbutter and realizes that he used subterfuge to get into her pants?
.

The situation is quite simple actually.

Manipulation and trickery would apply if both parties thought and acted in an OVERT full disclosure capacity. There is only one flaw in this. One party communicates COVERTLY. So we cannot OVERTLY communicate to their COVERT agenda. Ill explain furthur.

I am the first person to jump in on the INTEGRITY bandwagon. However, you cannot OVERTLY communicate to a woman on SEX without an emotional investment in place. 90% of women communicate COVERTLY. So we can choose to understand them and communicate in their language or find the remaining 10%

She OVERTLY said "BUT NO SEX". What she covertly said was " I want to have sex with you but I am not a SLUT who will barter sex for room and board". She is absolutely right to think this way. If she offered sex for room and board, she is a prostitute.

SLUT is such a derogatory word in society, most women will avoid at all costs to be labeled as such. This is how ASD came about.

Str8up's best defense to an ASD would be an OVERT "SEX? Of course not sweetie."

This is a COVERT way of saying "Yes i know sweetie, you are not a SLUT."

Hey, we all have choices of how to communicate. The party who loses in a COVERT battle is the OVERT communicator. Sure you can CHOOSE not to succumb to such tactics as COVERT communication, BUT COVERT itself has a hidden agenda. This means 90% of women who are COVERT speakers are natural manipulators. Not manipulation in deception but in self preservation.

We can CHOOSE to walk away from most women or communicate in their language.

I think walking away from an ASD tactic rather than diffusing it is not CONDUCIVE to being successful for the given purpose.

Robert Greene even goes furthur to say in such a world filled with MANIPULATION, history has taught us the righteous always get the short end of the stick.

I do not compromise my integrity to get ahead for any cause nor do I justify what GREENE says. But I think her COVERT remark was in protecting her image rather than deception. This is COVERT value rather than manipulation.

 

[KarmaSutra]

I am the first person to jump in on the INTEGRITY bandwagon. However, you cannot OVERTLY communicate to a woman on SEX without an emotional investment in place. 90% of women communicate COVERTLY. So we can choose to understand them and communicate in their language or find the remaining 10%

Which is why I teach specifically to NEVER, EVER listen to what comes out of a woman's mouth. Instead, always read and listen to what her body language says because it rarely lies.

She OVERTLY said "BUT NO SEX". What she covertly said was " I want to have sex with you but I am not a SLUT who will barter sex for room and board". She is absolutely right to think this way. If she offered sex for room and board, she is a prostitute.

Nooohooho-oooo Sir. She wants something for nothing. She clearly has a fvcking agenda but STR8UP called her out on it before she could shoot her gun.

SLUT is such a derogatory word in society, most women will avoid at all costs to be labeled as such. This is how ASD came about.

Str8up's best defense to an ASD would be an OVERT "SEX? Of course not sweetie."

This is a COVERT way of saying "Yes i know sweetie, you are not a SLUT."

I don't follow this process either. You're minimalizing her bullsh!t and playing her game. Men have an obligation to women to be true. I don't mean to be callous or shallow. Use some tact, some verbage which dictates your importance of self and also leave room for her to interpret, in her own mind, what you will and will not stand for. This causes mild confusion and a tinge of intrigue which holds hands with curiousity then walks her into your bedroom.

Hey, we all have choices of how to communicate. The party who loses in a COVERT battle is the OVERT communicator. Sure you can CHOOSE not to succumb to such tactics as COVERT communication, BUT COVERT itself has a hidden agenda. This means 90% of women who are COVERT speakers are natural manipulators. Not manipulation in deception but in self preservation.

We can CHOOSE to walk away from most women or communicate in their language.

I think walking away from an ASD tactic rather than diffusing it is not CONDUCIVE to being successful for the given purpose.

Robert Greene even goes furthur to say in such a world filled with MANIPULATION, history has taught us the righteous always get the short end of the stick.

I do not compromise my integrity to get ahead for any cause nor do I justify what GREENE says. But I think her COVERT remark was in protecting her image rather than deception. This is COVERT value rather than manipulation.

I agree that she had no intention of being vague for any reason other than to keep her facade as sparkling clean as possible. The problem was STR8UP had already dipped his wand in her cauldron so she had no card to trump him with. So she then resorts to being a victim.

 

[Colossus]

This is an absolute waste of your time.

A) This young broad does not add any significant value to your life whatsoever.
B) No sex.
C) Drama.

You've pandered to her immaturity in the hopes that you'd get some effortless ass from it, and in doing so have painted yourself into a corner. Now, she's expecting an LTR with you, when obviously this isn't your intent.

There isn't a smooth landing here STR8. If I were you I would opt out of this situation as quickly as possible - like ripping a band-aid off. Just do it and get it over with.

You did the right thing by confronting her about her games. What I suggest you do from here on out is minimize contact with this girl, if not sever ties with her altogether. You can be cordial if and when you do see her, but it's time to phase her out.

Dude, life's too short to deal with this crap.

I concur.

I read your post Str8, but honestly all I had to see was "...so i've been talking to this 22 year old..."

I know you have an affinity for the younger women, which is fine, but it seems like with a lot of these girls you end up playing girls' games.

I just cant see a young broad like this adding anything positive to your life; other than sex and some occasional fun, which you are not getting. I like younger women as well; from a physical perspective, but my tolerance for their immaturity is pretty thin, and I'm about a decade younger than you. It's just not worth the time and effort to me.

 

[Colossus]

The situation is quite simple actually.

Manipulation and trickery would apply if both parties thought and acted in an OVERT full disclosure capacity. There is only one flaw in this. One party communicates COVERTLY. So we cannot OVERTLY communicate to their COVERT agenda. Ill explain furthur.

I am the first person to jump in on the INTEGRITY bandwagon. However, you cannot OVERTLY communicate to a woman on SEX without an emotional investment in place. 90% of women communicate COVERTLY. So we can choose to understand them and communicate in their language or find the remaining 10%

She OVERTLY said "BUT NO SEX". What she covertly said was " I want to have sex with you but I am not a SLUT who will barter sex for room and board". She is absolutely right to think this way. If she offered sex for room and board, she is a prostitute.

SLUT is such a derogatory word in society, most women will avoid at all costs to be labeled as such. This is how ASD came about.

Str8up's best defense to an ASD would be an OVERT "SEX? Of course not sweetie."

This is a COVERT way of saying "Yes i know sweetie, you are not a SLUT."

Hey, we all have choices of how to communicate. The party who loses in a COVERT battle is the OVERT communicator. Sure you can CHOOSE not to succumb to such tactics as COVERT communication, BUT COVERT itself has a hidden agenda. This means 90% of women who are COVERT speakers are natural manipulators. Not manipulation in deception but in self preservation.

We can CHOOSE to walk away from most women or communicate in their language.

I think walking away from an ASD tactic rather than diffusing it is not CONDUCIVE to being successful for the given purpose.

Robert Greene even goes furthur to say in such a world filled with MANIPULATION, history has taught us the righteous always get the short end of the stick.

I do not compromise my integrity to get ahead for any cause nor do I justify what GREENE says. But I think her COVERT remark was in protecting her image rather than deception. This is COVERT value rather than manipulation.

Good points here.

I literally have to diffuse the ASD with every girl i hook up with or date, to some degree.

Basically it boils down to telling them they are not a slut; that they are 'special' to you. Most women abhor the idea of being another notch on your bedpost, unless you're a rock star. They will go to GREAT lengths to avoid being viewed as a slut; either by you or their peers. Usually this is communicated indirectly, but I have said to women "look, if you were just my booty call I wouldn't (insert action here), with reliable success.

 

[STR8UP]

More great takes from both camps.

I agree, guru, by me not "playing along" I forced her hand and it put HER in a corner.

Her- doesn't want to feel like a slvt.

Me- Don't want to feel like a chump.

It was set up as a losing proposition unless I was willing to play the little game. Then it probably would have been her slapping my hand the first time and back to the pu$$y buffet the second time we get together.

There was just something about this that screamed "Fukk this game playing bullsh!t" that caused me to put my foot down before it could even get started.

The Oprah-esque "reasoning" that was coming out of her mouth and all I could hear was "We're gonna do this on MY terms". And when a woman starts that crap with me lately I take it as a personal attack, even if i shouldn't, cause I refuse to submit to letting a chick use sex as an ace up her sleeve. And maybe that's not what she was doing, but the end result is the same.

You know, I failed to mention one thing that is very relevant here.

Last week when she was planning her trip into town she told me that she has to stop by the mall and grab something (I guess we have the GOOD mall here), and she wanted me to come with her so we could hang out.

I told her that I'm not the type of guy to check his balls at the door to help a girl pick out clothes, that's not my thing. I told her we could make a deal. I would go to the mall with her for a few minutes, but what do I get in return?

I was trying to get her to open up, ANY kind of sign would have been ok with me, she didn't have to say "I'm gonna blow you in the parking lot", but I was trying to get the playful banter going again, and all she could come up with was "I'll buy you ice cream" or something like that.

This was possibly the beginning of the end with this. I did end up hanging out with her and stopping by the mall, and she kept saying how she felt guilty for making me do something I didn't want to do and now she feels that she owes me.

It was probably a big mistake to get it off on the wrong foot this way, but honestly I was just trying to get her to loosen up a little. The fact that she DIDN'T crack at all just added fuel to the fire. I suppose the negotiation started that day, although it was only implied then, and wasn't official until she said the words "no sex".

Maaaaan.....why do women have to be this complicated AFTER you've already had sex? I can understand BEFORE, but AFTER?????

 

[Luveno]

You know, I should really publish my instant message histories. They'd make me a good amount of cash, considering the skill that lies within.

So, STR8, the error that you made was in not seeing that when a girl accepts an offer to stay overnight at your place, or you at hers, she is always thinking about the possibility of sex. Her Anti-slut defense will cause her to blurt out how you're not going to have sex, but really, she knows that it might happen.

What I do in those situations is turn the tables on them. It works very well.

 

[KarmaSutra]

You know, I should really publish my instant message histories.

Isn't it chicks who use Instant Messengers? I assumed that medium was strictly for high school girls who are too anxious to hit up thier buddies on MySpace?

Guys don't do this. Men talk to women to thier faces.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Nah, I'm not.

 

[MacAvoy]

Maybe it's my pride getting in the way. Maybe it's that I'm getting older and have less patience. But the thought of having to re-seduce a woman who had her pu$$y wrapped around my face while my **** was down her throat awhile back just isn't appealing to me. I take it as her saying "You gotta work for this!" Why should I have to work for something I already had?

Two important thing your forgetting here. First is that its been 2 years since you sexed this women. Secondly that she is a WOMEN and not a sex machine. Women want to be romantically swept off their feet. Its been 2 years since you did that, she's forgotten all those romantic things that you did for her and have to remind her of that. You've basically treated her like a piece of meat and she's rightfully shut you out.

Last week when she was planning her trip into town she told me that she has to stop by the mall and grab something (I guess we have the GOOD mall here), and she wanted me to come with her so we could hang out.

....

This was possibly the beginning of the end with this. I did end up hanging out with her and stopping by the mall, and she kept saying how she felt guilty for making me do something I didn't want to do and now she feels that she owes me.

I'm a bit confused. So she was in town a week ago? This is vital information that your leaving out. This other negotiation that you had. I think you've messed up and given her the impression that you only want to use her for sex.

However I still stick by my original advice about telling her to call you when she's ready.

So my question to you is how do you plan on proceeding?

 

[speed dawg]

Str8up,

I think this chick told you everything you needed to know, albeit in chickspeak. She's obviously not very attracted to you, but here's the kicker - you have feelings for her. I'm not talking about lust, I'm talking about you want to be with her. Just my unbiased view of the situation.

I've been in this situation before, and the way I see it, you have too options with a chick with low IL:

1) Stop talking to her...

or

2) Let her come stay anyway, and hope that you can talk her into something.

Now, either choice, you have to cut emotional ties and see the situation for what it is - a girl with low IL, probably on the rebound, deprived of attention and looking to you for it. In my situation, I let the girl come to my house and I ate her pvssy all night because hey, I like eating pvssy and she was hot. She wouldn't let me do anything else but that's OK too. I had my mind made up that I wasn't going to care about her. I just beat off right after.

Just take it for what it is or let it go. Simple choice, and I realize it's not what you want to hear but oh well.

 

[MacAvoy]

Isn't it chicks who use Instant Messengers? I assumed that medium was strictly for high school girls who are too anxious to hit up thier buddies on MySpace?

Guys don't do this. Men talk to women to thier faces.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Nah, I'm not.

You can add text messaging on cell phones to the above mix as well.

 

[STR8UP]

She's obviously not very attracted to you, but here's the kicker - you have feelings for her.

No, that's the biggest red flag here. She IS attracted to me. She wants a relationship. And for her to pull the sex card when I KNOW what she wants makes it look that much more like a manipulation to me.

And as for me having feelings.....I like the girl but I know that there isn't much long term potential.

 

[speed dawg]

I like the girl but I know that there isn't much long term potential.

Then I wouldn't care what happens. I'd joke with her about the no sex stuff saying something like "Yeah, you say that, but then when you get here, blah blah". I definitely would not "call her on her BS" because that will make everything heavy and awkward and pretty much guarantee you won't see her genitalia.

If you REALLY don't care then things will probably work out anyway.

 

[cordoncordon]

In my situation, I let the girl come to my house and I ate her pvssy all night because hey, I like eating pvssy and she was hot. She wouldn't let me do anything else but that's OK too. I had my mind made up that I wasn't going to care about her. I just beat off right after.

I'm sorry but I have to chime in here off of this last comment.

This may be the gayest thing I have ever heard, and the most AFC. I mean just wow. Why would you degrade yourself to such a level?

 

[speed dawg]

This may be the gayest thing I have ever heard, and the most AFC. I mean just wow. Why would you degrade yourself to such a level?

Because I didn't care. Degrade myself? Pfft. I'll let you worry about conforming to the "ideal man" standards.

 

[##17]

STR8TUP, you're a smart guy. So why would you ever entertain a *logical* conversation with a woman about sex happening when you're not on the same bed together? If you didn't make a deal about what she had said, it would have just happened. And if it didn't, you could make it a point not to hang out with her again (if that's what you wanted).

 

[STR8UP]

STR8TUP, you're a smart guy. So why would you ever entertain a *logical* conversation with a woman about sex happening when you're not on the same bed together? If you didn't make a deal about what she had said, it would have just happened. And if it didn't, you could make it a point not to hang out with her again (if that's what you wanted).

Dammit if I'm not second guessing everything now....

I realize that you can't win using words with a woman. I KNOW this. But I couldn't help letting it spill out last night, cause I didn't want to put myself in a position where she was laying next to me and not giving it up, when I know I was neck deep in it a year and a half ago.

The thing is, if we didn't have sex that night, I might not even see her again for a couple of months. It's not like "Well, it didn't happen tonight, but maybe next weekend".

And I'm not about to start a long distance relationship of ANY kind, especially with a chick who is playing hard to get.

Like I said, my gut just told me to take it this way and I did. Maybe the outcome would have been better had I kept my mouth shut and played along, I don't know. But it did at least feel good to make it known that I don't play games.

 

[Bible_Belt]

Good luck with a 22 y/o and 'not playing games.' I don't think you can have it both ways. Emotional maturity is hard enough to find in women, but it is nearly impossible to find in the 22 y/o ones. She is merely acting her age, and it is to be expected.

 

[scottfall]

Maybe the outcome would have been better had I kept my mouth shut and played along, I don't know. But it did at least feel good to make it known that I don't play games.

Yea, just dont play the games. Men play games with the hope of "winning" and as we all know, its impossible to win at these games, you just have to refuse to play. Good job Str8up.