Change for a woman?

[Colossus]

I think this is an important topic that hasn’t been discussed in depth. As Mature Men, we tend to find ourselves in more LTRs as we get better at attracting and qualifying women. This is ok, as long as you have a plan and it’s what you want. But invariably, to many a man’s woe, relationships have a way of bringing out all those personal defects you have stuffed in your closet for so long. When we’re single and just wheelin’ and dealin’, it’s easy to feel great about ourselves because most of the attention we get is positive. The relationships are short-lived because we are spinning plates and just being men chasing skirt. If a chick gives us problems, we next and get back in the saddle. When a relationship becomes long-term, however, both parties are naturally placed in a position of increased vulnerability. No matter how perfect your woman is, there is going to be something you find annoying about her. This is just one of the realities of life. Either we find a way to deal with these annoyances and coexist, or we make the difficult decision of breaking off a long-term investment in a chick. The same goes for women, although women are more apt to try and “change” a man to suit their preferences. A wise man once told me, “men marry the woman they love, thinking she will never change; not realizing that every woman changes. Women marry the man they see him becoming, not realizing that men pretty much stay the same as$holes their whole life.”

This is funny, but there is a lot of truth to it. There comes a time in every relationship when a man is confronted with the reality of his own character flaws. He might be selfish in certain ways, he might pay way too much attention to his work, or he might have an unshakable penchant for eyeballing other women. So the question is when does a man swallow his pride and make a serious effort to change his behavior FOR a woman? There is an underlying theme here that we should never compromise ourselves to please a woman, and this is good in theory, but at some point we all need to face up and admit that some of the stuff we do may play a big role in relationships not lasting. Holding fast of your principles is one thing, but refusing to change for the benefit of someone you care about is just plain selfish.

A brief example: My current gf is a slow walker. I HATE slow walkers. This is probably one of my top 5 pet peeves. Drives me insane. Thing is, she deliberately walks slowly just to see if I will stay with her and not get on ahead. She is very old fashioned and believes a man should stay right next to her and be protective. I walk rather fast, so many times I just get way ahead and I look back and realize she is 30 feet behind. But she makes NO effort to catch up, and if I don’t wait she is NOT happy. This has clearly become a battle of wills. I annoy her with my absent-mindedness and fast walking, and she annoys me with her deliberate sloth’s pace.

So, do I just suck it up and walk slow with her? Or do I refuse to give in and walk like I have some fvcking purpose in life?!? I have to take all things into consideration. She is very giving in almost all other areas. She usually goes out of her way to make me happy. So, I could make a case for just dealing with this pet peeve and be a gentleman.

The point of this post is to prompt us to look at the way we treat our women. I’ve realized I spend an inordinate amount of effort improving myself physically and professionally, but very little in improving the way I treat women. I have a tendency to be brusque and deadpan, forgetting women need to be treated differently. I have found that the number one reason women break it off with an otherwise valuable man is because of a lack of attention. I don’t naturally give much attention to women; it’s just how I roll. Women have broken up with me because of this. The challenge lies in deciphering when and how much to give, and whether or not it is warranted. Some broads are just plain spoiled.

I’m curious what some Mature Men think about this. Were there times in your past you wish you would have changed? Did a good woman get away because you were bullheaded and selfish? Where do you personally draw the line?

 

[Sinistar]

LOL - My wife is the fast walker

Never change for you wife/GF. The minute you change for her (by that I mean the big stuff like giving up hobbies, altering career goals, family interactions, friends, etc) she's probably going to be more weirded out by it than anything else.

Women need dynamics. If you start changing for her, things get too static. She doesn't have anything else to "work on you" on and meanwhile you're not happy with yourself. But I think you know all this already.

In the end it's all about conditioning. The job (for the Man) never ends. My #1 peeve about my wife is leaving stuff laying around the kitchen, living room and dining room for too long. I made sure and let her know about it right away. It probably took 2-3 months of persistence and now those spaces are cleaned up every night and usually before I even get home. Had I caved, I'd be sucking it up and dealing with it for the next XXyrs - no thanks.

Back to your dilemma, it sounds like your GF is pretty awesome but there's a few things that are nagging you. If the slow walking is really the only thing bothering you about her, I think you'll find an answer. Maybe you should try jogging together, biking together, etc. Or work her up to it, do part of the walk fast and part slow until you find what works for you. Or kid with her and walk really sloooowly until she laughs and realizes how you feel. Also, communication is big to women. Maybe when walking slower, she feels more comfortable chatting. Maybe if you keep the convo going and speed up the pace she won't notice?

And if there is more to it than just walking slow, you have to be honest with yourself. We know the AFC will use smaller stuff like this as an excuse to not have to deal with bigger issues. But the DJ will take time to figure out what is really going on and act on it.

I’m curious what some Mature Men think about this. Were there times in your past you wish you would have changed? Did a good woman get away because you were bullheaded and selfish? Where do you personally draw the line?

Yes, there were countless times I should have changed but didn't know any better (unaware). If you ask me, the "good" women were smart enough to avoid me and my old ways were just naive attempts to keep bad ones around longer.

I think your attitude towards women (brusque and deadpan) isn't a bad thing, especially ones that you don't know very well. It presents an air of mystery. For an LTR though, I think one of the biggest items in keeping things comfortable is humor, C&F, etc. They should always be wondering (also mystery) if you're kidding, playing, etc - just like they were when they met you. Unless they are really uncomfortable with humor/C&F (which is a red flag) I think a multi-year LTR that is all serious, too deadpan, etc might be a bit too much for a woman, especially one with a good set of values, friends, etc. I could be wrong, but if my wife was always serious and matter of fact I think it would get kinda boring. My daughter is only 18mo old and she's already learned how to purposely get us (and others) to smile and laugh - priceless!

To me, I treat every woman I meet (wife, friends, strangers) sort of like a case study. Smile. Use humor. Kid them about stuff. Observe their reactions. Chuckle (and challenge) when feminism and matrix code spews out. Learning more about them is actually fun at this point.

I'm not sure if this helped. But don't change for a woman.

 

[Colossus]

Thanks, Sin.

I think the walking thing is indicative of a bigger dilemma--general compatibility. My gf is Brazilian (lived here 4 years) and her English is actually quite good. But--- there is a language barrier. The problem is in humor. She doesn't get most of my jokes, then asks me to explain them, after which point the moment is lost and it's just not funny. Little pop culture references (which are a huge part of my humor), slang terms, and sarcasm just don't always register. This can be divisive when we cant laugh together.
Brazilian culture is wayy different. The women cater to men a lot, but also expect to be treated a certain way. They are also VERY jealous of other girls. The attention Brazilian men give their women is crazy, and frankly I think she is plain spoiled. She treats me amazingly----10 times the woman my past gf's were...but I just don't know if I can give her the kind of chivalrous attention she likes. I guess more aptly, I don't know if I'm willing.

Still sorting this one out. She is a gem of a girlfriend so I want to make sure I've addressed all doubts.

 

[Warrior74]

The question is. Who does 'change' benefit and how? What will be the results of the change and the repercussions down the road?


I tried changing for her. Which is how I ended up here. I stopped leading and started following. That's unusually what "change" means...change in leadership and direction. Change means getting a man to do what she wants, not her changing to do what you want. You ever notice it's always the weaker person who wants the other to "change", and then when they get it they are never happy, and they want you to change something else. Next thing you know, you changed too much, gave in too much and now your her employee and then she fires you.


When was the last time any of you ever asked a woman to change and she did? It rarely seems to work that way does it? The weak always want you to change so they can grow a bit stronger on your back. There is no more changing.

 

[Ziniath]

My experience, and the experience of those in my life is to NEVER change only for a woman.

I offer you this for a few reasons:

1. One of the things inherently attractive to a woman is an unshakeable man. A man who is walking his path at any given time. she needs to know, that no matter what she throws at him, or what is thrown at him in life, will not have him deviate from his purpose in life. The feminine is incredible in it's capacity to test us as men, allowing us to find our boundaries much faster than we can on our own.

2. If you change just to please her, she cannot respect you. What happens, when in the heat of the moment, she tells you to **** off and never come back, and you actually listened to her? The feminine's truth does not come from her words, but rather from her being.

3. Sometimes you need to change, for your own benefit. You need to be able to step outside of yourself and take a look at your inauthenticities, look at your own short-comings, and your own insecurities, and face those demons as a man. The woman you are with, in a LTR, will become increasingly more adept in sniffing those out within you, and bringing them to your attention - don't hate her for it, she is offering you a most precious gift - the gift of finding the area's you are not expanding in, so that you can deepen as a man.

The feminine is always teaching me. My last girlfriend used to get ****ty at me when I sat in front of the computer for an extended period of time.

She used to tell me "I'M NOT GETTING ANY ATTENTION!".

To the old me, the lesser man, I would have interpretted this as her being a spoiled brat, but this was not the case.

What was actually occurring was she was telling me I was lacking presence. I was being sucked away by the computer, and not doing anything important with my life.

Her telling me that she wasn't getting any attention, was her way of informing me that she wasn't feeling love, because I was not present.

It wasn't me sitting at the computer that was the issue, it was the fact that I was living unconsciously, out of habit, rather than with complete consciousness and presence.

At times, there would be weeks when I didn't see her, but because I was following my purpose during that time, and was living with absolute presence, she could feel that when we interacted briefly on the phone, and she had all the attention she required. Not once during that time did she ever tell me "she wasn't getting any attention".

I would suggest that your issue, Colossus, is not to do with the fact that you walk fast, and she walks slow.

The issue might be your absent-mindedness, your lack of presence.

If you are a man on a mission, and it is your purpose to walk fast in order to complete that mission in absolute presence, turning to your girlfriend and simply saying "I love you, but I cannot walk this slowly with you right now, I must walk faster in order to attend to my purpose" - and you say this with absolute love, and depth of presence, it will speak tomes more to her than you getting ****ty that she's staying behind.

If you're walking fast to run away from something though (metaphorically speaking of course), then you need to face that and deal with it.

 

[Unbridled_Phoenix]

Dumping her should be good for a few entertaining threads titled "Ex has gone pscho" and "How to file for a restraing order."

Don't forget "Brazilian women-ai chihuahua!"

 

[Trader]

So the question is when does a man swallow his pride and make a serious effort to change his behavior FOR a woman? There is an underlying theme here that we should never compromise ourselves to please a woman, and this is good in theory, but at some point we all need to face up and admit that some of the stuff we do may play a big role in relationships not lasting. Holding fast of your principles is one thing, but refusing to change for the benefit of someone you care about is just plain selfish.

There are three types of general changes a man can make for his girl

1) Changing something that is hurting you. Sometimes a girl advises something that is actually for your own good. For example, one of my friends stopped smoking because of his gf. His gf didn't force him to quit, but she mentioned how it would be better for his health if he stopped. Makes sense. Adopt these changes.

2) A girl wants you to change your style. This is a definite no-no. Your personal style is one of the most important things about. Regarding your fast walking speed, this is just how you roll - there is no point in changing this for the girl. A girl asking you to change your hobbies such as video games is ridiculous - unless you are playing for 10 hours a day, then this change would probably be classified under #1

The point of this post is to prompt us to look at the way we treat our women. I’ve realized I spend an inordinate amount of effort improving myself physically and professionally, but very little in improving the way I treat women. I have a tendency to be brusque and deadpan, forgetting women need to be treated differently. I have found that the number one reason women break it off with an otherwise valuable man is because of a lack of attention. I don’t naturally give much attention to women; it’s just how I roll. Women have broken up with me because of this.

I’m curious what some Mature Men think about this. Were there times in your past you wish you would have changed? Did a good woman get away because you were bullheaded and selfish? Where do you personally draw the line?

I agree - once you got the girl, the key to keeping it hot is giving her attention. I'm not saying that you turn into Mr. Nice guy and start doing sappy things all the time. I'm just saying: 'Be OBSERVANT, pay attention to the little things.' For example, instead of just randomly buying her some expensive jewelry, think about what type of girl she is, and give a thoughtful gift.

The challenge lies in deciphering when and how much to give, and whether or not it is warranted. Some broads are just plain spoiled.

Now you are talking about how much should you invest in the girl - emotionally, financially, and in terms of your time. This is a very delicate question. While there is no clear cut answer, all I can say is, keep qualifying the girl, and the more she impresses you, the more you 'invest in her.'

 

[jophil28]

Ziniath and Trader said it all.

However, the 'slow walking' problem with Ms Brazilian is interesting.
Perhaps, at a deep level, Colossus is 'reading' this behavior by her as a passive aggressive attempt by her to exercise some form of control over him, and he resents it. If this is true, I would resent it too. Maybe he feels that she has found a way to "hold him back" and it bothers him underneath ?
Hmmm, I may be way off base with that comment, but women usually try to match a mans' pace and stride. Deliberately NOT trying to speed up a little makes me a tad curious and even suspicious .

Just saying.

 

[brokenupinside]

Have you ever been to Brazil?
I have ...many times,their pace is slower due to the heat/weather /etc. and also they save all the energy for "Carnaval".......but seriously wherever she is from it's not Boston so take that into account,it might not be a mind game or deliberate attempt to get "her way" etc.

As far as her being accustomed to getting attention form brazilian men....well ...yes ...they are latin and more intense but there's so much available poon in Brazil that makes men naturally less prone to dwell to much on one chick,but who knows.

Humor......yes ....that will be the last thing she'll get and most pop culture references will be lost.
I suggest a trip to Brazil with her and watch her in her environement,besides it'll give you and idea of what Brazil is like IF you have never been there and give you a chance to feel like she may feel when you don't know what the heck you are talking about........if you have been scratch that.
Plan your trip for Carnaval and prepare to have tyour mind BLOWN.
Warning,don't go to some backwater town ,go to a big city,preferably Rio and be aware that this trip may end your relationship....hehehehe.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

This was the OP from my Identity Crisis thread almost 5 years ago.

Identity Crisis


Is it possible to identify with women without compromising yourself?


If it is a conscious effort on the guy's part, no.

You bring up a good topic though, obviously when I refer to 'identifying' with a girl, this could use some explanation. What exactly is 'identifying' with a woman? The root of this word is 'identity', meaning who you are and what characteristics, traits and interests constitute your individual personality. 'Identity', in a way, is a pretty subjective, esoteric term - kind of like trying to define what art is - it can be argued that 'identity' is what you make of it. My field of specialization in psychology was personality studies and I can tell you there are a lot of theories and interpretations of what constitutes identity. However, one article that is agreed upon almost universally is that identity and personality are never static and are malleable and changeable by influencing variables and conditions. A very pronounced illustration of this would be soldiers retuning from combat with post traumatic stress disorder, a very identifiable and verifiable form of psychosis. These men are changed individuals and their identities are altered from the time they were subject to the psychological rigors of warfare to returning back to a normalized life. Some have the resiliencne to adjust their personalities back to a somewhat norlamized state, others sadly do not. Yet in each case the change was influenced by conditions and environment.

Likewise, most young men are subject to their own set of personal conditions and environments, and their personalities and identities reflect this accordingly. The guy who's naturally "lucky with the ladies" is going to reflect this in his identity. The young man who doesn't receive regular female attention for whatever reasons is going to manifest this condition in his identity. The guy who is focused on his own ambitions is going to reflect this in his own personality as well, but for all, when conditions are such that they feel deprived of certain experiences in their own life, this creates a conflict between a former identity and the altering of, or forming of a new one to meet the need for this experience. Couple this with the natural chemical/hormonal deisire for sexual experience and you can see how powerful an influence deprivation becomes.

Far too many young men maintain the notion that for them to receive the female intimacy they desire they should necessarily become more like the target of their affection in their own personality. In essence, to mold their own identify to better match the girl they think will best satisfy this need. So we see examples of men compromising their self-interests to better accomodate the interests of the woman they desire to facilitate this need for intimacy (i.e. sex). We all know the old adage women are all too aware of, "Guys will do anything to get laid" and this is certainly not limited to altering their individual identities and even conditions to better facilitate this. It's all too common an example to see men select a college based on the available women at that college rather than academic merit to fit their own ambitions or even choose a college to better maintain a pre-existing relationship that a woman has chosen and the young man follows. In order to justify these choices he will alter his identity and personality by creating rationales and new mental schemas to validate this 'decision' for himself. It becomes an ego protection for a decision he, on some level, knows was made for him.

This is just one glaring example of this identification, but thousands more subtle ones exist that men (and women) pass off as social mores and contrivances. The guy stuck in the 'Friend Zone' who got the LJBF line when he attempted to become intimate with his target, will happily listen to her drone on for hours on the phone in order to find out how better to alter himself to fit her conditions for intimate acceptability. He will readily "change his mind" about even his own personal beliefs if it will better fit what he perceives as her criteria for compatibility with her.

This is the compromise of identity - to fundamentally and voluntarily alter one's own personality to achieve the acceptability of another. When we are directly and overtly faced with this sort of challenge to our beliefs we naturally recoil - you are your own person and would resist were your employer or parents to tell you how you should vote (political belief), but when it comes to personality and sexual/intimacy interests, and done voluntarily it's suprising to see the limits of what men (and to an extent women) will do. Men will entertain the idea that a long distance relationship is a desirable arrangement even if intimacy and sex has never occured because the potential of that intimacy is implied. These same guys will espouse every reasoning they can conceive as to why their "relationship is different" and that they 'believe' that "love conquers all" only to come full circle when he or she 'cheats' or breaks off the relation and the man comes back to his prior (though he thinks new) understanding that LDRs are in fact a bad prospect. His identity changed and then changed again to accomodate his conditions.

And it's not that he never truly changed or had the belief in the first place. Were these guys to take a polygraph test they would indeed pass when asked if this was what they truly accepted as truth. Men will do what most easily solves a problem and in this he'll follow typically male, deductive tenets of pragmatism. "I need sex + women have the sex I want + I must discover what women want to give me sex + ask women + women want X = I will do X to get sex and alter my own identity in order to better facilitate X." It should be this easy, but that's rarely the case since more often than not women are unaware of what X really is, or that X is subject to constant change depending on her own conditions.

Now, after all of this, is it possible that a man and a woman may in fact share genuine common interests? Of course. You may indeed find a perfectly beautiful woman that enjoys Nascar or Hockey as much as you. You may find a woman you're attracted to who genuinely shares your passion for deep sea fishing. It's not uncommon to share common interests, it's when you alter your interest to better facilitate a connection that you force it. Making this determination of genuine interests and created interests is the hair that needs splitting. I've personally counseled guys who have literally changed careers to be in a better place to proposition a girl they fancied. I know men who've moved thousands of miles to live closer to women who've never reciprocated their interest in them, yet they continued to attempt to identify themselves with her. I know 65 year old men in 40 year marriages, who even after intimacy was resolved years ago with the woman, are still attempting to identify with their wives because they've internalized this identity compromise as a standard means of getting sex from her. Her expectations of him have become his identity and at 65 this mental scheme has become so ego invested that no amount of shedding light on his conditions will ever convince him anything to the opposite.

The most ironic thing about this 'Identity Crisis' is that the least attractive thing to most women is a man who is willing to compromise any part of his identity to placate to her, much less a wholesale sell out of it. Women are naturally attracted to that masculine independence as it represents a very strong indication of security and the potential to provide that security to her (and any children she may have). Women don't want a man who'll "do everything she says" because this sends the message that this man can be bought with even the prospect of a sexual encounter. Why would that indicate anything more than insecurity and a lack of confidence? Women want to be told "No", and constantly test a man's resolve to say this to her (i.e a sh!t test) in order to affirm that she's made the right choice (even in marriage) of a guy who'll put his sexual impulse (knowing full-well how powerful it is with men) on hold to stick to his own self-interest, beliefs and ambitions. It covertly communicates to a woman that his goals and determination trump her one power over him - her sexuality. That is the man who is the PRIZE, the 'great catch', the male to be competed for with other women.

 

[Colossus]

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about changing your (or my) identity for a woman, just small selfish stuff that you may not have noticed. I tend to be "absent" a lot---I'm just in my own world---and I've been that way my whole life. It bothers some chicks. As a result, I miss some things like grabbing her bags or getting something she is having trouble with....polite things, not being a chump. I'm not about to change the way I dress or any of the other extreme stuff that was mentioned.

However, the 'slow walking' problem with Ms Brazilian is interesting.
Perhaps, at a deep level, Colossus is 'reading' this behavior by her as a passive aggressive attempt by her to exercise some form of control over him, and he resents it. If this is true, I would resent it too. Maybe he feels that she has found a way to "hold him back" and it bothers him underneath ?
Hmmm, I may be way off base with that comment, but women usually try to match a mans' pace and stride. Deliberately NOT trying to speed up a little makes me a tad curious and even suspicious .

See that's what I'M saying Jophil. Any time I get even an inkling that a girl is trying to make me do something, I rebel. I have this deep-seated hatred of being ordered what to do, especially by women, and I think it goes back to my childhood when I was getting in trouble all the time.

At any rate, I don't want to make a mountain out of it, but I can definitely identify with what you said.


Brokenup-- I havent been to Brazil yet. Definitely looking forward to it. I was watching some videos on Carnaval and she said if I go---that I can never call her again haha!! Looks like a crazy time, I have to do it if I get a chance. She'll get over it.

Instead of creating a thread about how slow your GF walks, just admit you are getting bored hitting the same pusssy day after day and need a change. And your 'morality' won't allow you to tap your rock climbing partner or the other hotties in grad school as long as you have a GF.

Dumping her should be good for a few entertaining threads titled "Ex has gone pscho" and "How to file for a restraing order."

Actually the pusssy is amazing. Seriously better than all the white chicks I have ever banged. Plus gratuitous BJ's...the sex is tip-top.

And you're right my pious "morality" usually prevents me from cheating at leisure....though I never said I'm above it.

 

[Tazman]

Damn, this is really good stuff. Any time I read posts that make me reflect on my and others behaviors, that really hits home, I know I'm "learning". This stuff can apply to so many situations, and I'll be damned if it doesn't make perfect sense.

I came across a childhood friend of mine a while ago that I hadn't seen in a long time. He totally changed his personality and demeanor. He turned into your stereotypical thug and I just couldn't relate to him any more. It was because this wasn't the person I knew back then and I was irritated that he was acting this way with me because I never took that route.

He ended up going to a "thuggish" school and I imagine he made the change to not only cope with the other guys but also to get laid.

 

[jophil28]

See that's what I'M saying Jophil. Any time I get even an inkling that a girl is trying to make me do something, I rebel. I have this deep-seated hatred of being ordered what to do, especially by women, and I think it goes back to my childhood when I was getting in trouble all the time.

At any rate, I don't want to make a mountain out of it, but I can definitely identify with what you said.

.

I don't see a problem here. In fact, by being stubborn and resisting a woman's demands, you maintain ownership of' 'authority' and the decision making process.

I always make a point of resisting a woman's aggressive statements. It is a conscious campaign with me to remind both her AND myself that men direct womens behavior , NOT the other way around..Any attempt by her to order me to do something or to stamp her wishes on me without my agreement is met with cold resistance. I just bunker down.

If I were is your situation I would give her a sampler of your willingness to NOT slow down to accomodate her slow walking tactic (and I do believe that it is a tactic).

Just keep walking at your own pace and so demonstrate your intention to NOT slow down to dawdle along with her.

 

[reset]

Women want to be told "No", and constantly test a man's resolve to say this to her (i.e a sh!t test) in order to affirm that she's made the right choice (even in marriage) of a guy who'll put his sexual impulse (knowing full-well how powerful it is with men) on hold to stick to his own self-interest, beliefs and ambitions. It covertly communicates to a woman that his goals and determination trump her one power over him - her sexuality. That is the man who is the PRIZE, the 'great catch', the male to be competed for with other women.

^^^Thing of beauty.

Women want to try to change you just to make sure you won't change. They ACT like what they want for you to do, is really what they want you to do, and they request or nag in such a way that it seems doing what they want, is the most reasonable, respectful, and logical thing to do. Makes sense right?

NO! :crazy: It's a trap. If there was one little hair on your head that they didn't like, they'd be gone. They like you for NOT agreeing with them, that their requests, are the most reasonable, respectful, or logical thing to do.

 

[Luthor Rex]

The question is. Who does 'change' benefit and how? What will be the results of the change and the repercussions down the road?


I tried changing for her. Which is how I ended up here. I stopped leading and started following. That's unusually what "change" means...change in leadership and direction. Change means getting a man to do what she wants, not her changing to do what you want. You ever notice it's always the weaker person who wants the other to "change", and then when they get it they are never happy, and they want you to change something else. Next thing you know, you changed too much, gave in too much and now your her employee and then she fires you.


When was the last time any of you ever asked a woman to change and she did? It rarely seems to work that way does it? The weak always want you to change so they can grow a bit stronger on your back. There is no more changing.

Change... where have I heard that word before... the weak leaching off the strong...

Is your post a crypto-critique of the Obama administration?

 

[jophil28]

This is one very potent thead.

 

[Warrior74]

Change... where have I heard that word before... the weak leaching off the strong...

Is your post a crypto-critique of the Obama administration?

haha.
If you want to read into some cryptic obama critiques, go watch the pilot episode of V.

 

[old married dude]

Some advice:

Be very wary of those who want to try and change you, unless it's for the better like you having a drug addiction or gambling problem.

When they try to change you other than some of the reasons I listed above, that should be a big red flag that you could potentially be dealing with someone who has narcissitic personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder.

Some info so you know how to spot these types by their traits:

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/sx36.htm

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/DS00829/DSECTION=symptoms

If you're seeing someone who starts to display some of these traits, run away and forget about them for good.

I was with a girl with NPD back in my AFC and she made my life hell and drained me in many ways. It started with her manipulating me into allowing her to control me. These people are cunning and evil, they can be successful at controlling you without you realizing it.

 

[guru1000]

But invariably, to many a man’s woe, relationships have a way of bringing out all those personal defects you have stuffed in your closet for so long. When we’re single and just wheelin’ and dealin’, it’s easy to feel great about ourselves because most of the attention we get is positive. The relationships are short-lived because we are spinning plates and just being men chasing skirt. If a chick gives us problems, we next and get back in the saddle. When a relationship becomes long-term, however, both parties are naturally placed in a position of increased vulnerability. No matter how perfect your woman is, there is going to be something you find annoying about her.

As long as core compatibility is in place, the "extras" can be worked out. If you are put in a position where you feel annoyed at certain trinkets of behavior, address it overtly. Is she respects you, she will follow your suggestion or at least try to.

This is just one of the realities of life. Either we find a way to deal with these annoyances and coexist, or we make the difficult decision of breaking off a long-term investment in a chick.

Being aboard the ship of overt boundaries and qualifying I would throw these annoyances into the "overt boundary" category with a little sit down,

"Hey, part of a relationship is mutual respect and compatibility. I would appreciate if you do/ do not __________".

If your frame is in correct context and she respects you, she will ALWAYS follow your wishes.

This is funny, but there is a lot of truth to it. There comes a time in every relationship when a man is confronted with the reality of his own character flaws. He might be selfish in certain ways, he might pay way too much attention to his work, or he might have an unshakable penchant for eyeballing other women. So the question is when does a man swallow his pride and make a serious effort to change his behavior FOR a woman?

You don't. We are MEN, and are simply looking for a WOMAN. Part of that is the understanding, although we live in a generation of mutual bread winners, a successful LTR can only prosper with a traditional woman (thinker).

With the above statement, it is important to understand that we are in fact not equals in role or behavior. Complementary equals maybe, but certainly not Egalitarian roles.

That said, let's get into specifics.

He might be selfish in certain ways

Selfish is not bad as long as you are centered in growing financially, emotionally, physically and psychologically without compromising your partner.

he might pay way too much attention to his work

This is where complementary equals come into play. The understanding of your provisioning role must already be planted; no discussion here.

or he might have an unshakable penchant for eyeballing other women

This is just plain disrespectful.

So the question is when does a man swallow his pride and make a serious effort to change his behavior FOR a woman?

Never.

A brief example: My current gf is a slow walker. I HATE slow walkers. This is probably one of my top 5 pet peeves. Drives me insane. Thing is, she deliberately walks slowly just to see if I will stay with her and not get on ahead. She is very old fashioned and believes a man should stay right next to her and be protective. I walk rather fast, so many times I just get way ahead and I look back and realize she is 30 feet behind. But she makes NO effort to catch up, and if I don’t wait she is NOT happy. This has clearly become a battle of wills. I annoy her with my absent-mindedness and fast walking, and she annoys me with her deliberate sloth’s pace.

So, do I just suck it up and walk slow with her? Or do I refuse to give in and walk like I have some fvcking purpose in life?!? I have to take all things into consideration. She is very giving in almost all other areas. She usually goes out of her way to make me happy. So, I could make a case for just dealing with this pet peeve and be a gentleman.

"Hey, I'd appreciate if you can walk a little faster" should do the job.

The point of this post is to prompt us to look at the way we treat our women. I’ve realized I spend an inordinate amount of effort improving myself physically and professionally, but very little in improving the way I treat women. I have a tendency to be brusque and deadpan, forgetting women need to be treated differently. I have found that the number one reason women break it off with an otherwise valuable man is because of a lack of attention. I don’t naturally give much attention to women; it’s just how I roll. Women have broken up with me because of this. The challenge lies in deciphering when and how much to give, and whether or not it is warranted. Some broads are just plain spoiled.

I understand your question to be if a man has not formally cultivated respectful behavior and as a result treats his woman poorly, should he change.

To this I would say YES. Not for the woman, but for himself and his future communication with people in general. If a man wants to be respected, he should respect first.

"Brusque" in itself is not a good form of communication. I would definitely work on that, not for your gf, but for future communications, both business and personal.

 

[Jamo]

When you change for a woman then I believe at that point it is over. Women always seem to like to work on the imperfections in their men. A nice guy is basically a guy who changes for his woman and we all know how that ends up usually.

You should always give her a hope that you can change, by seeming to change: Give an inch for every mile of effort she puts in, and make her work very hard to keep those precious inches she thinks she has gained.

In regards to women complaining about the lack of attention I think it depends on the woman. If she is the career type then it is just as much up to her as it is up to you to work on this aspect of the relationship. 50/50 that is how they want it, then that is they way it has to be. If she is putting her time and effort into supporting you as a man then I would say more attention is warranted from your side. Otherwise she is not worth it.

I think this is an important topic that hasn’t been discussed in depth. As Mature Men, we tend to find ourselves in more LTRs as we get better at attracting and qualifying women. This is ok, as long as you have a plan and it’s what you want. But invariably, to many a man’s woe, relationships have a way of bringing out all those personal defects you have stuffed in your closet for so long. When we’re single and just wheelin’ and dealin’, it’s easy to feel great about ourselves because most of the attention we get is positive. The relationships are short-lived because we are spinning plates and just being men chasing skirt. If a chick gives us problems, we next and get back in the saddle. When a relationship becomes long-term, however, both parties are naturally placed in a position of increased vulnerability. No matter how perfect your woman is, there is going to be something you find annoying about her. This is just one of the realities of life. Either we find a way to deal with these annoyances and coexist, or we make the difficult decision of breaking off a long-term investment in a chick. The same goes for women, although women are more apt to try and “change” a man to suit their preferences. A wise man once told me, “men marry the woman they love, thinking she will never change; not realizing that every woman changes. Women marry the man they see him becoming, not realizing that men pretty much stay the same as$holes their whole life.”

This is funny, but there is a lot of truth to it. There comes a time in every relationship when a man is confronted with the reality of his own character flaws. He might be selfish in certain ways, he might pay way too much attention to his work, or he might have an unshakable penchant for eyeballing other women. So the question is when does a man swallow his pride and make a serious effort to change his behavior FOR a woman? There is an underlying theme here that we should never compromise ourselves to please a woman, and this is good in theory, but at some point we all need to face up and admit that some of the stuff we do may play a big role in relationships not lasting. Holding fast of your principles is one thing, but refusing to change for the benefit of someone you care about is just plain selfish.

A brief example: My current gf is a slow walker. I HATE slow walkers. This is probably one of my top 5 pet peeves. Drives me insane. Thing is, she deliberately walks slowly just to see if I will stay with her and not get on ahead. She is very old fashioned and believes a man should stay right next to her and be protective. I walk rather fast, so many times I just get way ahead and I look back and realize she is 30 feet behind. But she makes NO effort to catch up, and if I don’t wait she is NOT happy. This has clearly become a battle of wills. I annoy her with my absent-mindedness and fast walking, and she annoys me with her deliberate sloth’s pace.

So, do I just suck it up and walk slow with her? Or do I refuse to give in and walk like I have some fvcking purpose in life?!? I have to take all things into consideration. She is very giving in almost all other areas. She usually goes out of her way to make me happy. So, I could make a case for just dealing with this pet peeve and be a gentleman.

The point of this post is to prompt us to look at the way we treat our women. I’ve realized I spend an inordinate amount of effort improving myself physically and professionally, but very little in improving the way I treat women. I have a tendency to be brusque and deadpan, forgetting women need to be treated differently. I have found that the number one reason women break it off with an otherwise valuable man is because of a lack of attention. I don’t naturally give much attention to women; it’s just how I roll. Women have broken up with me because of this. The challenge lies in deciphering when and how much to give, and whether or not it is warranted. Some broads are just plain spoiled.

I’m curious what some Mature Men think about this. Were there times in your past you wish you would have changed? Did a good woman get away because you were bullheaded and selfish? Where do you personally draw the line?