Can women be loyal and trustworthy?

[Heretolearn]

Hey,

inspired by joekker's comment that they are not in business.

Can women be loyal and trustworthy? If not, how can we have relationships with them.

One woman i was with always told me she is not loyal and would not stick around if she did not want to. It turned out to be true.

Why are we loyal then?

It almost seems absurd. Men being loyal to the woman when we can impregnate many women simultaneously meaning our loyalties would be spread and not concentrated whereas a woman would want to be loyal to her mate, the man who impregnated her?

OK, enough wacky logic Your thoughts..........

 

[ElChoclo]

I regard my sons as loyal and trustworthy. But that doesn't mean I let them get into situations of temptation or fail to supervise their activities.

So the same applies to anyone I guess. Anyway once you start treating someone as untrustworthy they begin to see themselves as untrustworthy, and entitled to engage in all of the conduct deemed to merit the label.

 

[joekerr31]

well expounding on the business analogy....


is your employer trust worthy? yes and no.

if you've done a good job and hit a rough patch he's not going to fire. he'll give you some time to get out of your funk.

but if you start doing a bad job, all the time and there's no end in site to your miserable performance, will he fire you? yes.

so he lives up to his end of the bargain to the degree that you live up to your end of the bargain.

good business relationships work when your employer is paying you what you think is fair and your return results that they think are fair for what they are paying. sometimes the business is under high demands and you work harder to compensate. sometimes you're in a funk, and they cut you some slack. but both of you expect that overall a balance will be maintained.

if you start feeling like your busting your ass ALL the time and aren't being paid in relative proportion, and some other employer comes along offering you a job with fair pay for fair effort expended, are you going to jump ship for that other job? yep.

now some employers will screw you over and bleed every ounce of blood sweat and tears out of you and toss you aside when you've burned out. these are bad employers. and some employees, no matter how much you pay them will constantly b*tch and complain that they arent appreciated enough.

are women trust worthy? depends.

if you hook up with a woman where you both meet each others needs, and you are both mature and contribute equally to the relationship, then it will be a happy arrangement.

sure there will be times when one is giving more than the other. there will be times where one is more demanding than the other. there will be times where one is in a funk more than the other.

but at the end of the day, as long as balance is maintained you're fine.

are there chics out there who bleed you dry and no matter how much you kill yourself to please will never be appreciative for your efforts? yes. Are there chics that will toss you aside when you burn out, or a better deal comes along? yes.

but the same goes for men. I mean, a lot of guys tend not to end relationships, they just go out and have a fling. lots of women ahve been just as screwed over by men as men by women.

so at the end of the day all you have to ask yourself is whether or not there is balance. is she putting in as much as you are. this is called maturity.

if people are putting excessive demands on each other, or people feel they aren't getting back what they are putting in... then ya, you can't trust the woman (or man) really, because they are just sticking around until something better comes around.

J

 

[penkitten]

i am

 

[joekerr31]

Originally posted by frivolousz21
remember most guys are here only because theyve been Severely hurt!

or they wouldnt be here

friv, im telling you. i dont know what it is about you but you just annoy the hell out of me.

im such a non violent person. i mean, it takes a LOT for me to become violent. basically the only thing that would make me violent would be if someone was attacking someone and i was defending them.

but im telling ya man. if you were here right now I dont think id be able to not punch you right in the face.

dude, youre response added absolutely nothing to the thread. i mean, nothing! what was the point? it doesn't relate to anything in the above posts.

it's just so damn pathetic its making me angry.

 

[MightyMate]

I honestly think they can at some age. If girl was in about 2-3 relationships and Yu are her 1st love and shes 22+.. Shes gonna be loyal.. If not.. SOrry mate.

 

[ElChoclo]

Frivolous define "severely hurt" as opposed to "moderately hurt". Trust is as JoeKerr suggests perhaps partially conditional. But as a concept it frequently is treated as "ask no questions". If someone said to jump out of a plane, you wouldn't do so if you didn't trust the parachute.

I heard a comedian using the jumping out of a plane thing as a comment on divorce. He said, " What is there something like a 50% divorce rate. Now think about it. If I had to jump out of a plane and there was a 50% chance the parachute wouldn't open, would I do it. Hell no.

 

[WestCoaster]

Originally posted by joekerr31
friv, im telling you. i dont know what it is about you but you just annoy the hell out of me.

Same here ... I guess it's the know-it-all attitude, but more like the contrarian take on everything. It gets me riled up, too.

Insert contrarian comment here ...

 

[MackJr]

It's not all or nothing. Loyalty is a personality trait. If you start selecting for women with certain personality traits, you might have to make some tradeoffs.

It's not that all HB10s are disloyal, but if 10% of women are HB10s and 40% of women are loyal, then if you want both traits, only 4% of all women will have them.

On the other hand, if loyalty is more important, you can reduce your HB requirement a bit and have a larger pool to choose from.

 

[( . )( . )]

Originally posted by yendor28

Can women be loyal and trustworthy?

Absolutely not, and contrary to the media etc this is NOT a bad thing its just how they are wired (guided by emotion). When you can accept this is just how it is (I mean fully accept) everything just falls into place. Getting pissed over it makes as much sense as women getting pissed at men for being logical.

The sweetest most innocent girls you ever laid eyes on, will cheat at the drop of a HAT. The one thing that most men value most - loyalty - is just not there with women. Women don't think in terms of honor, women don't say "word is bond;" women are basically emotionally driven. If they feel it, they do it, period. Then they rationalize it to themselves later.----Unknown

Originally posted by joekerr31
friv, im telling you. i dont know what it is about you but you just annoy the hell out of me.

but im telling ya man. if you were here right now I dont think id be able to not punch you right in the face.

lol, and the irony is he/she passes off his/her insecurities and fake happiness of which hé/she can only obtain through a "LTR" (another person) as how every man should be. If i didnt feel so sorry for the emasculated hobbit I could probably quite easily join in on kicking the sh!t out of it aswell, but seriously the homo shouldnt even be in this forum.

 

[STR8UP]

"Can women be loyal and trustworthy?"

I'll let you know when I run across one.

 

[joekerr31]

id trust mother teresa.

so theres at least one woman who was trust worthy.

J

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

"A man is only as loyal as his options." - Chris Rock

I'd extend this to women as well. We're all only as loyal and trustworthy as our conditions and options permit us to be. I can't tell you what decisions I would make were I to win the lottery tomorrow, nor could I tell you that my wife wouldn't leave me for a millionaire, but I do know that our conditions dictate our behaviors.

No one is bullet-proof and time and circumstance make hypocrites of us all. So can women be loyal and trusted? Yes and no. It's all subjective.

 

[joekerr31]

Rollo,

agreed.

which is why the following is absolutely critical:

1) only marry a woman who shares the same beliefs and values that you do
2) only marry a woman who puts those beliefs and values at the very top of her list of the most important traits in a man


that is the absolute best way to maximize trust.

If she puts money, looks, social status, whatever, HIGHER on her list than Values and Beliefs, trust over the long term will eventually be shattered.

if you like her cuz she giggles when she farts, that aint going to keep you trust worthy for years to come.

beliefs and values are the only lynch pins to LONG TERM TRUST (LTT).

thats why guys, the woman you are with may give you a boner every 5 minutes nad make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but if you don't share the same values and beliefs in life, everntually you will get screwed over (or you will screw her over).

J

 

[SAYNO]

Re: Re: Can women be loyal and trustworthy?

Originally posted by ( . )( . )
Absolutely not, and contrary to the media etc this is NOT a bad thing its just how they are wired (guided by emotion). When you can accept this is just how it is (I mean fully accept) everything just falls into place. Getting pissed over it makes as much sense as women getting pissed at men for being logical.

Excellent post as usual. Thanks for telling it like it is man.



Sayno'

 

[WestCoaster]

Totally agree Joekerr

There is a small segment of women out there who aren't always trying to upgrade. They're very hard to find, but that's why you have to find one who shares the same values, like Joekerr said.

I go back to the farm girl analogy. Growing up I didn't realize how great these women were, a lot of us thought they were hicks and the real women were the beauty queens with money. Guess what? Those beauty queens have multiple divorces and have gotten fat. The farm girls are happily married, in shape (from working so d-mn hard) and very pleasant. I run into them now and then on trips back to my small hometown in North Idaho. They still live on farms and they married the farm boy a few acres away.

They were raised on hard work and LOYALTY. When you're loyal to your farming family, and a farm, you're loyal to something that's bigger than you. I know our government is trying it's hardest to kill off farming, but I think it's one of the greatest things to happen to this country.

But those women are very far and few between. Every city girl I know has cheated on their man. (Not saying all city girls cheat, but my experience is country girls are better.)

 

[joekerr31]

Re: Totally agree Joekerr

Originally posted by WestCoaster
There is a small segment of women out there who aren't always trying to upgrade. They're very hard to find, but that's why you have to find one who shares the same values, like Joekerr said.
)

West i agree,but don't agree also. i go back to my 10-80-10 rule.

10 % will cheat and upgrade in a heart beat.

80% will try to be loyal, but are lost and confused and will be lead astray by their emotions and insecurities.

10% know that you get what you give in this life, place their values at the top of their list and pick men who do the same and live happily ever after.

but its only 10%. and you gotta be one those 10% of the men who think that way also. I mean, ya its tougher, because 90% of the women are useless to you if you are one of the 10%.

but with a little luck you can strike gold. you'll appreciate having a great woman and she'll appreciate having a great guy.

personally, those are theonly conditions id ever get married under.

J

 

[joekerr31]

Originally posted by frivolousz21
Yes, there are just as many women out there looking for what you are looking for.

dont look at a club or bar or online..go to a church or other good social function.

instead of a bar try a play or a theatre....or an art museum.

Friv, you're a bloody genuis. I bet you right now there are thousands of guys thinking to themselves "wow, i never thought of that. maybe bars arent the best place to meet women."

oh wait... this is the MATURE forum... so im sure that insight is well known by almost every guy here.

 

[WestCoaster]

Correct, 10 percent. There are 10 percent quality women in the U.S. -- my guess is in some European and Asian countries it is inverse: 80 percent good.

American women (and men) have been so corrupted by our culture, it's just sick. The media/advertising dictates how people think, act, feel, buy, and relate to people.

So you have look for that 10 percent. Like Rollo said on the plate spinning theory, a "sniper" approach doesn't work, you need to date many. I never understood this in my 20's, but I do now. Unless you find a real gem by luck, you need to date somewhere around 100 women or more to find a good one.

Most guys I know who got married are either unhappily married now; or the happy ones just got lucky and struggled with relationships until they met a nice gal.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

You can marry a saint and still have her turn into a slvt overnight under the right conditions. We'd all like a hooker with a heart of gold, but the nuts and bolts of it is that we're all opportunists and we'll opt for the best choice our conditions allow us.

I have a great friend Shawn who went to a religious school to earn a degree in seminary or something like that so he could become a pastor. He met his first wife there and she swore that her greatest ambition was to become a pastors wife and have children with him. They were married for 2 years after he graduated and they sang in their church choir together when she met up with a Bad Boy she fell in love with, left him and moved from Detroit to Las Vegas to follow the guy. She still calls him now even though he's remarried and cries to him about how foolish she was and how much she regrets it. All he ever says about it now is how he "never saw it coming" and that he "never in a million years would've expected her to do this."

In fact the majority of divorced guys I've counseled repeat this same line, when it's the woman who has the affair. Her conditions were such that the opportunity that another guy represented was better than what she at least perceived was her present conditions with the man she was promised to be loyal to. One other unfortunate example is the illustration I often use with my sister-in-law divorcing her husband of 20 years and 2 grown children leaving him for a multi-millionaire. You have to understand that this same woman, even after her former husband hung himself, still clings to her religious convictions and loyalties she's held her entire life. When she was married to her first husband she was an active church-going woman involved in her community, steadfast in her marriage committment, and while he was by no means a saint, they both had very strong dedications to their family. That was until a better ship sailed into her harbor that she ddecided was a better opportunity for her and all of the conviction of the last 20 years went out the window. Now in her 'new life' she continues on with the millionaire falling back on the same convictions she shared with her now dead first husband and has the audacity to quote scripture about how others shouldn't judge her.

You see, the Devil's in the details. If you were to meet your loving, loyal and trustworthy wife in the Philipines and you present the promise of a 'new life' for her and the opportunity to change her conditions for the better over the course of her lifetime, is she really loyal and trustworthy or just a pragmatic opportunist? Conversely, if your loyal wife has never given you pause to question her character for 10 years and she files for divorce after meeting a rich businessman was she loyal for those 10 years or did her opportunity and conditions warrant her opting out of her marriage?